Stuttering on sim racing games!

[João Miguel Martins]

Hi!
i forgot to mention that every time i have a freeze, i can see in RTSS that i have a frametime spike too, but the frames don´t flutuate to much!
I have FPS from 70 to 144.
What can cause this frametime spikes?
I can capture frames with RTSS or in Nvidia panel at 70, and even this way i still have freezes (and frametime spikes).

Here is a picture from Portimão Circuit (AIA), near me (85 km from my real life house)
As we can see at right in the up right graphic (Control C option), the green bar is almost full, but the blue bar is too far from be at is full load.

I played for 2 hours with 43 AI cars, and had a lot of micro freezes and a major freeze (1 second or more) during the race time.

 

[BrunoBæ]

when I took it out of the case and gave it a shake you could hear the coolant that was left sloshing about so some evaporation had took place and maybe caused a big air lock in the pump/CPU block.

Actually this is a problem all closed/sealed water coolers have.
The reason is NOT evaporation though the tubings or sealings - but some kind of "electrolysis" process splitting the water in its original components (O)xygen and (H)ydrogen without electricity.
Its the same thing that happens in a completely sealed waterbed that will allways get "air" bubles after some time.

 

[João Miguel Martins]

Actually this is a problem all closed/sealed water coolers have.
The reason is NOT evaporation though the tubings or sealings - but some kind of "electrolysis" process splitting the water in its original components (O)xygen and (H)ydrogen without electricity.
Its the same thing that happens in a completely sealed waterbed that will allways get "air" bubles after some time.

But even this way, my temperatures are ok, my GPU and CPU temperature don´t go up then 70 / 80 C playing Sim Racing Games.
With AIDA64 stress test, with CPU at 5 GHz it goes until 80 / 85 C.
With OCCT full stress test, with CPU at 5 Ghz it goes until 100 C, with CPU at 4.7 GHz it goes until 85 / 90 C.

Can that problem on the water cooling system cause stuttering / freezes?

Are you from Portugal?
I am from Portugal

Thanks in advance
João Miguel

 

[pattikins]

...
For example i like to play Rfactor 2 a lot.
I play with AI, a lot of AI cars, like 30 to 44 AI cars.
I play with high graphic definitions, as my GPU never reaches 100 per cent usage.
Some cores on my CPU sometimes reach 100 per cent, but on the global the CPU never reach 50 per cent usage, even with a lot of cars, i can see that with Rfactor 2 (Control C option), or with RTSS and MSI Afterburner.
...

Looking @ the first image there doesn't seem to be a problem with your PC. I think you would've been better off running rfactor2 to measure latency with LatencyMon.

If any of your cpu threads are hitting 100%, it is essentially a bottleneck and that is where I would be looking - the AC & RF2 engines are six or more years old and are limited to a small number of threads.

Do you have access to a second monitor? I use a MS program called Process Monitor that allows real-time monitoring and my system clock (displaying the seconds - hack... or a windows clock app would do the same) to identify what processes are running @ the time of the [micro] stuttering.

 

[Denis Betty]

I saw a thread on optimising rF2. It's 18 months old and I haven't tried any of this yet, but maybe there's something in it that'll help... worth a shot.

Tips for optimized rF2 performance / Guide on how to prevent low FPS

Hello Since rF2 is a fairly hardware intensive simulaton, needs more optimizing than a general game and most simracers I see have problems in one form...

forum.studio-397.com

 

[BrunoBæ]

Are you from Portugal?
I am from Portugal

hehe no João.
But my race frame is (Simetik)
And some of my best hollydays

 

[John-Eric Saxén]

It sounds like you have more or less ruled out a hardware problem at this point. I wouldn't also put money on a RTX 2080 Ti now, especially not from a RTX 2070, since next gen Nvidia cards will be out later this year and with 7 nm tech they should offer a significant performance boost over current gen.

A few things you can do inside rF2:
-Check that all forms of sync is off from video config
-Use fullscreen only
-Try benchmarking on stock content, if you get the issue on a modded track, there is always the possibility that modder screwed up something and we'll never know for sure
-You can test toggling replays to only record to RAM during race, this has solved stutters some people have been getting, but I reckon these were more like big one-time stutters (change the setting "Record To Memory":true in player.JSON, with 32 GB RAM it should be no issue to keep replays in RAM during race).

If none of this works, finally I'd attempt to downgrade Nvidia driver, I often found that older Nvidia drivers work just as well if not better for non-AAA titles like rF2.

 

[João Miguel Martins]

Looking @ the first image there doesn't seem to be a problem with your PC. I think you would've been better off running rfactor2 to measure latency with LatencyMon.

If any of your cpu threads are hitting 100%, it is essentially a bottleneck and that is where I would be looking - the AC & RF2 engines are six or more years old and are limited to a small number of threads.

Do you have access to a second monitor? I use a MS program called Process Monitor that allows real-time monitoring and my system clock (displaying the seconds - hack... or a windows clock app would do the same) to identify what processes are running @ the time of the [micro] stuttering.
View attachment 363878

I don’t have a second monitor.
I ran latency mon without touching the computer.
Do you said to do it playing rfactor 2 ?
Thanks

 

[João Miguel Martins]

It sounds like you have more or less ruled out a hardware problem at this point. I wouldn't also put money on a RTX 2080 Ti now, especially not from a RTX 2070, since next gen Nvidia cards will be out later this year and with 7 nm tech they should offer a significant performance boost over current gen.

A few things you can do inside rF2:
-Check that all forms of sync is off from video config
-Use fullscreen only
-Try benchmarking on stock content, if you get the issue on a modded track, there is always the possibility that modder screwed up something and we'll never know for sure
-You can test toggling replays to only record to RAM during race, this has solved stutters some people have been getting, but I reckon these were more like big one-time stutters (change the setting "Record To Memory":true in player.JSON, with 32 GB RAM it should be no issue to keep replays in RAM during race).

If none of this works, finally I'd attempt to downgrade Nvidia driver, I often found that older Nvidia drivers work just as well if not better for non-AAA titles like rF2.

I did all that, with no significant improvements.

Thanks

 

[pattikins]

I don’t have a second monitor.
I ran latency mon without touching the computer.
Do you said to do it playing rfactor 2 ?
Thanks

Without running rfactor2 (or AC, ACC...) you won't be able to see the processes that are causing the stuttering, so yes.

The reason I suggested that you need a second monitor is that Process Monitor records all the cpu processes, and to narrow down the cause of the stuttering you need to know the exact time in seconds, otherwise you end wading through thousands upon thousands of events. As long as you can match the time of events recorded in Process Monitor with the time that you experienced the stutter, i.e., a stop watch... then it should be fine to run Process Monitor in the background on a single monitor.

 

[João Miguel Martins]

Without running rfactor2 (or AC, ACC...) you won't be able to see the processes that are causing the stuttering, so yes.

The reason I suggested that you need a second monitor is that Process Monitor records all the cpu processes, and to narrow down the cause of the stuttering you need to know the exact time in seconds, otherwise you end wading through thousands upon thousands of events. As long as you can match the time of events recorded in Process Monitor with the time that you experienced the stutter, i.e., a stop watch... then it should be fine to run Process Monitor in the background on a single monitor.

I will try with another monitor.
I haven't opened the monitor boxes yet (the 3 ASUS VG278QR monitors)
Anyway i put Rfactor 2, only on the last 4 cores (8 threads) , to not be interrupted by other programs.

Thanks

 

[João Miguel Martins]

Last night i played for 38 minutes on RFactor 2, with 30 GTE cars, at "Toban 24 hours" without problems, but suddenly when i tried to play at "Portimão" and at "Toban 24 hours" again the freezes returned.
In the 3 times i played, i put the monitor at 100 HZ and used in game "Video Sync"

I don´t understand how could i have played for 38 minutes without a single issue, and then, the problems returned again.

Any idea?
Could this have something to do with my house AC current and voltage?
Should i buy an UPS?
My power supply is good, it is platinum certified (760 W).



One hour after i put monitor at 144 Hz again, and with RTSS i captured frametime limit at 9708 (corresponding to frames at 103).
I used HWMonitor, RTSS and MSI Afterburner to test it.
With task manager i put the Rfactor.exe at high priority and using only the last 4 cores (8 threads), to avoid interruptions from other programs, anyway i turned off CCleaner, Glary Utilities and SuperAntiSpyware.
None of the last 4 cores reached 100%.
I had a small spikes on frametime, with almost no stuttering, excluding when AI cars have accidents, but i just played for 20 minutes, 10 minutes at "Portimão" with 43 AI cars, and 10 minutes at "Toban 24 hours", with 35 AI cars.

I ll go to put the pictures i took:

The GPU usage never passed 50%.
When the GPU usage passed 40, 41%, i get the information on the RTSS information panel, that the GPU reached the voltage limit (1st image).
What does it mean?
Is there any problem with that?

The FPS floated between 78 and 103 on "Portimão", and where almost steady at 103 on "Toban 24 hours".

The first 4 cores didn´t reach, great values (10, 12%), the image i put here have bigger numbers, but at that time i already had opened other programs.

The GPU just were at 50% or less, no single CPU core reached 100 % (maximum 98%).
I put "Threaded Optimization" ON, in Nvidia control panel.

Any idea on how to low the single CPU usage? For example on how to split it for the other cores, if possible.

Thanks
João Miguel

 

[Case_]

If any of your cpu threads are hitting 100%, it is essentially a bottleneck and that is where I would be looking

Bear in mind that this isn't a reliable way to discover CPU bottlenecks, as the usual monitoring tools have way too low response to reliably detect threads being bottlenecked like this. Also even if some thread doesn't hit 100%, it still doesn't mean much, since the application threads tend to be switched very quickly between CPU threads as needed, so you might easily see CPU thread utilization on the low end while still being completely CPU bottlenecked.

Generally speaking, CPU thread/core monitoring is pretty much useless on current hardware.

Also I would advice against manually assigning applications to threads/cores - if the OS/CPU logic is not doing a good job on that, it's a solid chance you will do even worse yourself, possibly even while thinking you're "optimizing" it. Task/thread scheduling is not a trivial subject.

 

[João Miguel Martins]

Bear in mind that this isn't a reliable way to discover CPU bottlenecks, as the usual monitoring tools have way too low response to reliably detect threads being bottlenecked like this. Also even if some thread doesn't hit 100%, it still doesn't mean much, since the application threads tend to be switched very quickly between CPU threads as needed, so you might easily see CPU thread utilization on the low end while still being completely CPU bottlenecked.

Generally speaking, CPU thread/core monitoring is pretty much useless on current hardware.

Also I would advice against manually assigning applications to threads/cores - if the OS/CPU logic is not doing a good job on that, it's a solid chance you will do even worse yourself, possibly even while thinking you're "optimizing" it. Task/thread scheduling is not a trivial subject.

Thanks!
I think I have to live with this problem.
Can’t solve it.
Anyway I think you’re totally right.
With the computer of my friends son, with a i5 9400F, 8 Gb of non XMP memory at 2133 MHz, and first with his GTX 1070 and after with my RTX 2070, I didn’t had this problems of freezes. I played for about 20 minutes, 10 with each GPU (5 laps at Portimão) with 43 AI cars. I got lower fps, i didn’t need to use any sync, just only g-sync, as it didn’t not reached the 144 fps (I have a 144 Hz monitor, 166 Hz on OC). Any of his i5 9400F CPU cores reached the 100%, and that was not a issue.
So much frustrating to swap CPU, GPU, motherboard and memory, spend more then 1000 €, and couldn’t play this sim racing games with a minimum quality as I played before, with the old setup.
The FPS were not bad on the old setup, just couldn’t maintain 90 FPS all the time with VR (oculus rift).

Is there any setup on BIOS that I should have especially attention?
I have an ASUS Z390 E Gaming, it doesn’t have any HPET option there to turn on or off. I already turn off all energy options there (C state, speed shift, speed step) and hyper threading with no improvements.

Thanks
João Miguel

 

[Case_]

Honestly, in regards to rF2 especially, I don't think that game is even capable of running without serious issues. It's in a horrible state. A carcass of 10+ year old technologies on which some stickers have been applied to make it look semi-recent, while the decomposing carcass underneath is slowly rotting by the day. Pretty much everyone I know has issues with rF2, sometimes even gamebreaking, and the amount of people I've seen giving up on rF2 in the past months is just staggering.

 

[João Miguel Martins]

Honestly, in regards to rF2 especially, I don't think that game is even capable of running without serious issues. It's in a horrible state. A carcass of 10+ year old technologies on which some stickers have been applied to make it look semi-recent, while the decomposing carcass underneath is slowly rotting by the day. Pretty much everyone I know has issues with rF2, sometimes even gamebreaking, and the amount of people I've seen giving up on rF2 in the past months is just staggering.

Maybe you are right, but i still have problems with the other simulators too, and didn't have problems with my old setup with Rfactor 2 or any other sim racing game, so I presume that my computer (hardware or software) have a problem.

Unfortunately I can't install windows 7, to test it, with other OS.
When I install it from the root it stops at the beginning, on the first screen, don't know if it is caused by my keyboard and mouse don't be recognized (wifi).
Anyway I have a wired mouse too and it doesn't recognize it. The screen just seems to be frozen.

When I try to install it inside windows 10, it always gave me a blue screen (fatal error).

So, no way with windows 7 ( and no way with windows 10 too).
I put on BIOS, CSM mode, so it should work.

Martin, can a flutuante voltage or current from my house cause this kind of problems?
Would a UPS solve it?

Thanks
João Miguel

 

[John-Eric Saxén]

Now when I think about it, I had a similar stuttering issue with F1 2017 a couple of years ago. No matter what I did with drivers, game settings or Windows, I would get moments where gameplay didn't feel smooth and it would usually be accompanied by a bigger stutter every couple of laps. I found out this issue was entirely CPU related, once the CPU usage started approaching 100%, the Codemasters engine would no longer deliver a consistent experience. The issue was solved the moment I upgraded to a stronger CPU.

Codies made improvements to reduce their CPU usage in later titles. However, I suspect if I would pair a strong enough GPU like an RTX 2080 with my current Ryzen 5 3600 and run at 1080p, I could probably still trigger the stuttering issue, since the game engine doesn't like the CPU being maxed out. It could be that something similar is going on in your case. The problem with rF2 is that AI and physics all run on a single CPU thread, so it's possible this thread is limiting you. It's also possible that it's the main rendering thread, as rF2 isn't very well multi-threaded (unfortunately there is no magic fix for this).

 

[Kek700]

You could hire a generator for the day, ( assuming you live somewhere you could put it ), Honda one should do it. you only consume in the region of 300w from your PC.
it is highly unlikly to be your supply though, but you never know + the regulation of your power supply should be able to deal with most input voltage fluctuations.
Maybe someone else could give some better advice. UPS are not cheap

 

[Case_]

(I'd say that if you seriously start considering fluctuating mains voltage as your source of stuttering, you've gone a bit too far. Unless you have a really shitty mains to the point where it should probably be fixed ASAP.)

 

[Zxa999]

Sorry for my english, I'm using google.
I have the same problem.
Until 2018 I played AMS and PCARS1 and PCARS2, without any problem, in the first semester I started to dedicate myself only to PCARS 2 in championships formed by leagues.
However during one of those championships that took place around June / July 2018 I started having these stuttering problems without changing anything on my hardwere.
After that I tried to solve this problem in various ways through software by formatting the PC several times, deleting all my files and including not installing Windows 10 updates. I also tried win 8 by installing and not installing updates. I put older Nvidea drivers (even for 2018) and it didn't work, I installed new hard drives and memories. I started to assume that the problem was Pcars2 and started to play Dirt rally and have the same problem. I went back to looking for solutions in several possible ways with OC, temperature, downclock, etc. nothing solved so I changed the game genre. I started playing all kinds of things, rocket league, Bordelands, Batman arkham, overwatch and many other things without a problem. Now in 2020 I returned to racing with F1 2017 and I had no problems, then I started playing Nascar Heat 4, I had some FPS drops but I didn't pay attention.
So I decided to return this month (September / 2020) to a camponato in AMS, the same one I used perfectly in 2018 and I try stuttering again. This problem has haunted me for years, I really don't know what to do. The only difference I see is that my hardwere is not current and I don't use VR.

i5 4570
GTX 970
32 GB RAM
GA-H87-HD3
LG 29 "UltraWide
H60