So......lets talk AI?

Msportdan · Sep 16, 2014

So firstly I want to say good job on the AI (so far) suppose im worrying that you will ruin the AI like what AC has done to its AI. But to be fair simbin have always done a competent ai. I think theyre good they overtake you (unlike cms f1) theyre quite quick even on low 90s level. I would like to see them better RF2 aI.

However maybe we could just talk about points about the AI and what you would like to see, or how they perform.

*I would like to see them defend a tight corner (hairpin) if your right behind I like them to close the door on the inside. (anticipate your out breaking move)

* Not get bunched up that sometimes happens. when accident occurs I think?!

What do you think? had a good moment with them. ?

JayJayRaceinho · Sep 20, 2014

the player-livery should be only used once in grid and not used by any AI.

about slow/fast AI bumping you or you bump the AI : going instantly off-throttle keeps your car stable in most cases.

Emerson Meyer · Sep 20, 2014

I´m really trying to enjoy it... but so far the races look like a destruction derby... bumpings all around, the AI´s safe and sound and you spinning like crazy.

Arthur Spooner · Sep 21, 2014

Emerson Meyer said:
I´m really trying to enjoy it... but so far the races look like a destruction derby... bumpings all around, the AI´s safe and sound and you spinning like crazy.

Exactly my experience. I've been trying some more offline races today and it's just not possible to finish a race without getting bumped off and getting a drive through as a result. No matter how much you try to stay away from the AI - they will get you. AI drives like it's on rails and pushes and bumps you around the track like a football. And sometimes the slightest little touch sends me into a completely unrecoverable spin. The reaction of the players car to sometimes really only slight touches is totally incomprehensible. The AIs bump and push each other too, but since all of them are like on rails it doesn't really matter unless they crash really really hard.

I'm sorry, but offline races are no fun so far...

Arthur Spooner · Sep 21, 2014

New story...

This time I tried an offline race again, all settings the same except for the class. I changed from GT Masters to GTR3. Now this was nice! Everything back to normal again. AI was a bit faster compared to me. But I finished the race without any silly incidents. AI was not too agressive. Still trying to cover their line when I came up from behind, but at the same time they were trying not to collide with me if possible. Some slight pushing and bumping, just like in real racing, but nothing like deliberately pushing the player into a spin under full throttle. And: the players cars reaction to the contacts was reasonable. A tiny push, corrected with the wheel, losing a little bit of rpm and time and you race on, maybe losing one spot, maybe not. Just like in real racing when it's getting close...

So my conclusion is, that the extremely bad experience in offline racing has something to do with the new GT Masters cars I drove so far. Their AI is overly agressive and additionally somethings clearly wrong with collision physics.

I can only advise everybody to try a different class but GT Masters - it pays off!

All in all the GT Masters cars look to me like they are some kind of experiment gone wrong in some aspects. Maybe someone from S3 could enlighten us about this issue. To let everybody know what to expect from the GT Masters cars the next livestream might be a good occasion for this.

Talking about AI physics: Why does the AI have their own physics at all? They never lose grip, not even on the grass or in the gravel. Wherever they drive they have full traction and grip. The same goes for bumps. For example, the AI is not affected at all by the big bumps on the outside of the exit at the first corner on Red Bull Ring. They always go very wide in that corner and completely drive over these bumps, which looks funnily like they're glued to the ground. If I do so my car starts to jump over the bumps like crazy. But this behaviour is not exclusive to RRRE, it was already there in GTR and hasn't changed since then in all SIMBIN-games.

And for the end something off-topic: for gods sake, let us finally save our setups! Please!

Emerson Meyer · Sep 21, 2014

Nice information Arthur! I will give a try! The GT Masters cars at Hockenheim are a nightmare...they just can't make the hairpin without bump you off. Frustrating

Emerson Meyer · Sep 21, 2014

Well...GT3 at Hockenheim... no better. I give up.

Msportdan · Sep 21, 2014

sorry I don't want to sound a idiot. But I'm not having these issues with over aggressive ai or being pushed off at any corner. Ive played hockenhei quite a bit and haven't once been pushed off at any corner especially the first corner or hairpin.

I think they're aggression is just right. Ive been a long side and they haven't deliberately bashed me if anything I've seen them keep their distance. They are quite good in that area buy I also believe the tracks ai pathing has a lot do do with how good ai are. For Instance the euro ring I find them good and there's no weak places. But nurbgurgring there's a few places where u can overtake easily.

However I do agree that I think there's something off about the new gt collisions physics. As I've experienced the light nudge and player spins effect more than once not often but enough to notice. ive accidently hit a ai car up the rear-end and ive ended up spinning round which I thought was odd.

The thing is if they tame the aggression u wont get a challenging ai then we have a racer like cms f1 when they don't overtake. It must be a hard thing to balance. Id rather have an ai that will race you maybe aggressively where you have to be aware of them, than an ai which moves over for you.

JayJayRaceinho · Sep 21, 2014

in generally i have good races against ai, not sure if it's randomness or unfinished AI-Code, but on some tracks (like oschersleben or bathurst) they sometimes really ram you from behind, like they don't see you, though you are driving on the racing-line and braking normal.

wider mirrors or indicators that show you there is an AI right next to you, would help in some cases to avoid bumpings at all (i know it helped alot in Assetto Corsa 4me).

IIRC GTR2 had 3 AI-Agression level.

Arthur Spooner · Sep 21, 2014

Msportdan said:
sorry I don't want to sound a idiot.

LOL - me neither. But I'm really not making up what I write here. I'm honestly describing my experience. But I also don't have an explanation why there is such a difference between your experience and mine. And it is definitely not just a matter of personal perception. What I (and obviously also Emerson) have experienced is an absolutely intolerable AI behaviour. This combined with the hilarious collision physics makes any offline racing impossible - at least for GT Masters for what I know. Completing only one single lap, where you have an AI car behind you at some point, is nearly impossible.

I will try to elaborate on this a bit deeper, but if someone from S3 has anything to clear up this issue, it would be nice if we got some notes left in this thread.

James Cook · Sep 21, 2014

I think the AI is decent but there is undoubtedly plenty of room for improvement. I concur with most of the issues raised in this thread although I don't consider any one aspect of the AI to be game-breakingly bad.

They can be clumsy and lack awareness (like human players then!) and drive too slow in certain parts of a circuit but I appreciate that AI paths need work on most tracks.

All I want is the AI to give me the feeling of being in a living and breathing race. I want to see drivers making mistakes, mechanical problems and retirements, and less 'bunching' i.e. a bigger performance differential between the fastest and slowest driver.

Arthur Spooner · Sep 21, 2014

Just tried GT Masters in Hockenheim, this time with a Corvette, which, from my experience, drives a bit more stable than the Nissan already.

It was a bit better than Red Bull Ring but still not driveable. I was driving really careful, trying to avoid any contact with the AI at any cost. This lead to nearly being unable to overtake anyone of them although they were more than a second slower. But after a few laps again (I had just passed one of them without touching after he screwed up a corner) he just bumped me on the next apex into a spin, him being on full throttle pushing me around through the whole corner, and he just drove on like nothing happened. I received a drive through of course. I mean, this is really BS. I don't see how anybody can call this anything else.

A bit of bumping and pushing is OK to me, but the AI bangs into your rear and continues to push you under full throttle until you're out of their way. WTF? And why on earth do I receive a drive through for this? WTF? When another AI car breaks down they stop(!) in the middle of the race line to not crash into it, but the moment I slightly need to slow down due to a little drift they bang me off the track and send me flying into the armco. WTF? Where do they even take the speed from for doing so? They are so much slower that they shouldn't even bother when I'm slightly slower for once. WTF? They are not even trying to avoid me.

Yes, I know RRRE is still a beta, but this is by far to annoying for me to spend my time with this any further. I'd really like to help S3 to work this out, but my spare time is rare too, while it is their job to solve this kind of issues.

Emerson Meyer · Sep 21, 2014

ATM, it's just impossible to have a clean race. I have tried only the "updated" tracks, otherwise the cars behave like a boat, at least the GT Masters.

At Zandvoort the race was decent (after a half dozen restarts)... At Hokenheim, a nightmare.

Please guys, try to race at Hockenheim... with one or two cars at least behind you... and then tell me.

It's interesting to note that the AI mostly respect your space side by side, but suddenly they became BLIND and stupid when are behind you ( at some points of the tracks...The hairpin at Hockenheim, for example).

And c'mon, the talent files of these AI's are the same??? 30 or 40 laps all the cars separated by 1-2 seconds?

Emerson Meyer · Sep 21, 2014

#Arthur Spooner, to get rid of the dreadful "drive through penalty", turn off the Flag System.

Peter · Sep 21, 2014

Maybe it's good to have 1 sticky thread where you can report your AI problems and no discussions.

It's impossible to find all the AI bugs with so many different driver styles.

I already collected and reproduced several at the Steam forum.

Bryan O'Connor · Sep 21, 2014

How do you edit and upload your replays to YouTube? That would help as its saves explaining for hours when a video will say it all in a 20 second clip.

Peter · Sep 21, 2014

I use nVidia shadowplay or mirrilis Action.

You can also use this https://gyazo.com/ after you recorded a replay. It records and opens a browser link
http://gyazo.com/d236dde260c1c420ab8fce6417eef54f

Arthur Spooner · Sep 21, 2014

Emerson Meyer said:
#Arthur Spooner, to get rid of the dreadful "drive through penalty", turn off the Flag System.

Thanks! I will most probably do so although I don't like it. I'd really like to have a working flag system but in this case the disadvantages are bigger than the advantages.

Peter Koch said:
Maybe it's good to have 1 sticky thread where you can report your AI problems and no discussions.

It's impossible to find all the AI bugs with so many different driver styles.

I already collected and reproduced several at the Steam forum.

Thanks a lot Peter. Nice to see someone "offical" take the initiative.

Still, I can't see a clear line in my issues with the AI. I was just doing some free practice on the Red Bull Ring with the maximum of AI drivers present. Of course in practice they are not driving altogether in one big line, but I had the opportunity to pass through a small group of 5 cars close together. I wasn't expecting to ever be able to get through this group. But to my big surprise it was going like charm. I could even pass one of them around the outside, which would have been absolutely impossible if the AI had behaved like it did in the races I described in this thread. So what was the key factor to change the experience in this case? Maybe the amount of cars driving together? Do the AI calculations get so complex that my CPU can't handle it anymore when 23 AI cars + 1 player are together in one big line of cars? I have a core i7 4770K, which is not too bad, so I really hope this is not the case...

And then: why was it so much better for me with the GTR3 class instead of the GT Masters? It was the same amount of cars. Maybe the physics? Are the new physics of the GT Masters cars so much more CPU-demanding that they made the difference for me? Excessive CPU-load might even explain the weird spins I got from minor collisions. But in the end I can't tell for sure...

You see, my problem is, that I fail to see the key factor for my issues. I'd really like to tell you something like "in case X is like Y problem Z occurs". But I can't. I can't even reproduce it for myself with 100% success. I can just tell you that sometimes the AI goes completely weird and wild making a clean offline race impossible.

I'd appreciate if you let us know if/when the devs found out what causes the issue. Thanks!

Kjell Eilertsen · Sep 21, 2014

Unless I remember this all wrong, adaptive AI won't scale their difficulty to your skill level during a race, no matter if its a 5 lap or a 50 lap race. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the adjustment in adaptive AI happens between races, so you need to run several to get a decently tuned AI.
Maybe @Peter Koch can confirm or tell me I'm wrong?

Msportdan · Sep 21, 2014

I wanted to test the ai, so I quailed on pole for ochesleben... So im at the front with all 17 ai behind me.. With a long straight coming up to a very slow first corner, I thought ill be hit here if anywhere,.. I restarted my race 4-5 times, and didn't get hit up the rear once..

Are you braking too early? (pardon the sound of this

)