Sim racing community. Can't we just get along...?

[Xosé Estrada]

So in a way rather the bashing people with those skills, have respect for what they can do, because most of us wont be able to!

I don't, in fact if you read my post I say I considered them very good arcade players, which is not worse, is just not simracing.

Being good at quake requires a lot of skill, but has nothing to do with driving, like the gamepad and swingman view

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

Sadly, this is becoming more common as people start to revolve their daily lives around this form of media.
And they call this "Social Media".

There is definitely a connection between the masses coming online with social media platforms like Facebook and Twitter and decline in online behavior. Everybody is nowadays encouraged to have an opinion about everything and should voice it as many times as a day as possible regardless if people understand the subject or not.

I see a downward spiral since 2008 (is that the year of the big breakthrough of FB/Twitter?). From a community that actually appreciated peoples efforts like modding, support, leagues and news and wasn't scared to say thank you from time, chip in a tiny donation to help with running costs of sites, or contribute in any other free way together with others that do a hell of of lot of voluntary work in the community to a more ego-centered way of visiting websites, grab what they can and leave as quickly as possible.

Nowadays its even too much to ask to hit a thank you button for many, or voice their appreciation to someones work, A lot is taking for granted and I more and more see the following trend: I must have this now, give it to me, me, me and of course for free.
It doesn't matter anymore if rules are broken or ethics are put aside as long as its for the greater goal: ME.

Recently I posted about this greedy attitude in the F1 2011 mods forum but to be frank, you can stick it on any community out there whether its simracing related or not and that is a scary thought. The Age of Greed?

What can be done to turn the tide?

*The above thankfully only applies to a minority of people (I hope )

 

[Lee Ross]

I think the OP is pretty bang on with his observation tbh, over the last year or so it seems to have got worse. What i don't get with people is if you don't like a project/game then just move on, why do you feel the need to keep on posting in a given forum for that title and slating it?

I mean i gave up pretty much on pCARS a few months back, said what i thought about it and certain slimey investors and moved on. There is really no need for me to keep posting in there, it's not what was promised, i got over that and have moved onto better products. Better products being in my opinion of course.

At the same time, people who are higher regarded within the community should be setting a better example, A good example would be Simbin and the Kunos team releasing the picture they did. A bad example IMO would be the recent episode over at VirtualR and they producing the iRacing story.

It did not look good whatsoever considering Robs ties with SMS, there really was no story IMO. Thing is to that point, besides the obvious pCARS support i.e the pCARS tab being the first although doesn't fit the alphabetical order, same as NoGrip and obviously pCARS being the only one that gets links to the official page i thought Rob had been pretty fair in all honesty but the whole iRacing thing was a low blow.

It's not about pCARS either. It's more the fact that an employee of SMS is producing news like this. I remember Robs inital post when he joined SMS and said he felt it would be wrong to review or pass judegment on another sim while working for SMS. Well this episode kind of goes way beyond any of that and that's why IMO there was so much reaction. He can't see that obviously and thinks it's just the iRacing lads reacting, but i don't even race or like iRacing and i could see how wrong it was.

The funny part about it is though, when he made the 2nd post with a video showing all sims do it, pCARS stood out the worst and looked and sounded hideous.

Racedepartment and BSIM didn't feel the need to make a story from it, so it shows just how unimportant it actually was and how low a blow it was.

So really while alot of it is down to us, i think bigger personalties within the community should also be setting a better example, just like Simbin and Kunos.

 

[Jay Ekkel]

I don't, in fact if you read my post I say I considered them very good arcade players, which is not worse, is just not simracing.

Being good at quake requires a lot of skill, but has nothing to do with driving, like the gamepad and swingman view

I didnt mean to imply you did!

It was meant in a general sense, seeing "arcade" players in simracing as a "lesser" simracer. Its just a different style of enjoying the same game, if he delivers great, fair racing more then welcome!

 

[Ben Tusting]

Slightly Offtopic, but there is nothing wrong with using Swingman.
I know drivers who use Swingman and they are quick

It's just the same with drivers not using the 'real life degrees of roation and lock'.,
It doesn't matter one bit, it just seems to offend the ultra sim enthusiasts.

 

[Xosé Estrada]

Slightly Offtopic, but there is nothing wrong with using Swingman.
I know drivers who use Swingman and they are quick

It's just the same with drivers not using the 'real life degrees of roation and lock'.,
It doesn't matter one bit, it just seems to offend the ultra sim enthusiasts.

Using unproper lock or rotation is not necessarly an adventage.

Swingman is, it allows you to make moves and find places to pass where other's can't, because their limited view. With swingman you override one of the "troubles" of being inside a racing car: limited surrounding vision.

It's exactly the same as the view you have in the field when playing football, or the view you have when playing FIFA... give "FIFA view" to Xavi and Spain would won 213 - 0 every match

 

[William Levesque]

Swingman for me is just ridiculous to use... It's not an advantage, it's bloody dangerous !!!

I've no idea how you can get the car where you want and follow someone without hitting him on the rear

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

Guys (including myself) the topic is not about swingman camera's. Do a little search on the forum and you'll find plenty of threads with that subject where we can continue that discussion.

Lets get back on topic and try to answer what Rhys actually wanted to discuss

 

[Xosé Estrada]

Well, for me it's just simracing is a reflection of society.

There are few main factors.

One is that people struggle to recognise the good job done by others, and always think (almost always without even try) that they would do better, so it's rare to see respect and a fair judgement about what others do. This applies to game development, league organisation, driving skills...

Second, it's that we are all taught to consider individual success as the only kind of success, so not many people wants to work for anything that won't report him at least "prestige" (aka ego boost). In simracing communities there is usually not money involved so this means to have MY league, MY own community, MY whatever, so all the credits come to ME individually, or maximum to a very small and recognisible group of persons.

When you work for a bigger organization this doesn't happen, I can name staff that does a hell of a work organising but the credits go to RD, as abstract entity, so they never became "popular". In this case are persons thinking and acting for the collective success, but sadly this mentality is scarce, and therefore from time to time we meet persons that raise this ego battles, generating a lot of convulsions in the community, with former friends breaking, splits and sometimes even insults an disrespect.

Another factor it's the anonymity of internet, it's easy to judge and disrespect persons when you can hardly have empathy for a nickname, that's why it is so important to humanize the accounts, showing the person behind. Of course there persons that would be mean anyway, but not the majority.

Regarding tastes, what is simracing and what is not... all that is debatable and dissagree can be very healthy if it's in a good ambience and there is respect and will to have fun debating, and not humilliate the others.

How to change it? Education in different values, but not just in simracing, in life.

 

[Lee Knight]

Well said Xose!

 

[Linus Broström]

Chase cam drivers will likely never be aliens anyway as it's not precise, but nevermind...

What about Keith Barrick?? he use's the "swingman" view in Race07, and he is a real sim-racing alien to me

 

[Xosé Estrada]

What about Keith Barrick?? he use's the "swingman" view in Race07, and he is a real sim-racing alien to me

Like in any skill, is question of time and talent, you can be super fast in swingman, and it constitutes a huge adventage when door to door racing.

When you do simracing, you partially develop habilities that you can use in a real car, that's the principle of professional training Sims, and we just have worse versions of that.

That's why the software and organisations more simracing focused, use to block any external view by default.

If you drive in swingman, you just can't translate that to a real car, because you will be totally lost when it comes to hit the apex, braking points, etc... its just not driving, is another hability, call it gaming or whatever you like. Same if you play with a gamepad.

For me, that link between virtual and real, is what simracing means, otherwise is a cars game.

Also for me it doesn't makes sense ask for super precise physics and then totally ignore something more important like your view/perception of the track and the action

 

[Lee Knight]

I really hate to contribute to something off-topic here but I do need to raise this for myself in-case someone can help me out here, it's to do with 'game pads' as mentioned above....
Personally, over a 30-odd km track Im roughly 3minutes(!) per lap slower using a wheel than my PS controller-yet Im pretty competetive with the 'Pad'!
I'd like to use a wheel, Ive been given a Wingman & a Momo & don't want top spend money on aG25/27 unless I can actually be sure Im going to be any better with it & although it was hooked to a Playstation when I did try a G25 I found that there again I couldn't come to grips with the wheel.
I find this most annoying as Ive been out on track in real cars (& bikes too) & I have been quite quick (in fact damn close to class record at Oran Park in particular!)
I can only guess it's that it's because I came to digital racing late in life & via the playstation route & Im too used to what the real thing feels & looks like & as soon as there's a wheel in my hands that part of the brain takes over....
I guess it's all different strokes for different folks in the end & if your competitive & safe then why not go with what your comfortable & fast with.
But, if there's anyone out there who had trouble 'crossing-over' as Im doing & eventually found a 'trick' to it then please let me know, I'd be most grateful!
(Could you please answer me by PM & I'll start a proper thread somewhere rather than continue the off-topic-ness here)
Anyway, back on topic I feel that the decline of online etiquette & manners is partially the 'social media phenomenon' & that people are getting too used too anonymous instant gratification- has anyone read the WIP sections at rFc lately?! - & I think also that Xose said it better than I ever could a few posts ago....
Thanks for you time & space guys
BLeeK

 

[Xosé Estrada]

That thread would be interesting and useful Lee, in fact it's a great idea

 

[Kazumi]

I can't help much but,

analyze your driving style. If you lose time over 30 km it can be anywhere and anything. Analyze it on a shorter track. Find 1 track were you don't lose as much time and it might give a clue on why and where time is lost.

Also note you're "just" losing time compared to a kinda hotlap, maybe you're driving cleaner just as you would do in real car in a real environment. Brake earlier, accelerate more gently, don't push to much - that can easily make 1 second per km. Maybe more. It's easier and feels "more natural" (to us at least who are used to gamepads in general ) to go always full throttle, brake as hard as you can, and many sims don't punish that much (IMHO not necessarily less drivability but more like wear, heat, damage on locked / spinning tire)

As I said, I think only you can find the cause, the most issue from the switch is kinda the way you suddenly have to multitask in a different way with rotation and pedals. But that doesn't look like the cause here, especially when you have some real track experience.

 

[William Levesque]

Do you enjoy the steering wheel more than the pad ? If yes, screw the pace, it'll come.

 

[Ivo Simons]

It did not look good whatsoever considering Robs ties with SMS, there really was no story IMO. Thing is to that point, besides the obvious pCARS support i.e the pCARS tab being the first although doesn't fit the alphabetical order, same as NoGrip and obviously pCARS being the only one that gets links to the official page i thought Rob had been pretty fair in all honesty but the whole iRacing thing was a low blow.

For some magical reason thats changed now suddenly.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

Didn't one of the fast rf1 crazies claim he could do the same time with a gamepad or wheel....he made a ytube vid and claimed he did 30 000 laps with his wheel, but could do about the same time with his gamepad.

 

[Danny Asbury]

How the heck can someone be remotely close to being an alien with swingman view !?

I can't see one using the wheel with this view, and then add to that how awful the view is, kinda rotating 1 second after the car changes direction... Anyway.

I'm surprised you of all people would say this. Some of your THR teammates have been known to get down with the swingman. Some of the really, really, fast ones too. Cause Bram is right, you actually get to see so much more from outside the car. You can position the car EXACTLY where you mean to, pretty much all the time.

but the way I see it, we're all simracing. None of us are racing for real here. I used to have a problem with guys gaining an advantage from swingman, but I realize now it's not that much of one, and cockpit view has its advantages as well.

Good thread Rhys.

 

[Danny Asbury]

Didn't one of the fast rf1 crazies claim he could do the same time with a gamepad or wheel....he made a ytube vid and claimed he did 30 000 laps with his wheel, but could do about the same time with his gamepad.

Mikko Pummalinen (forgive spelling). And yes, I remember seeing that, too. He was only 2 tenths slower with a gamepad as opposed to his G27.