SFX - Tactile
- Thread starter Wmacky
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I'd be interested in a lower power output 4 - 6 channel amp. I can't justify the cost of a 2 channel amp capable of 1500W per channel for 40W exciters. The math doesn't add up for me. I wouldn't know where to start looking.
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Anyone need a couple of great amps for tactile that will drive anything from exciters to just short of a BK Concert? I've got a couple of Behringer NU1000's (2 channel amps) that are in excellent condition. Will make a sweetheart deal for someone in the US. PM me if your interested.
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Here's the 4 channel Rodney suggested - https://www.parts-express.com/behringer-epq304-europower-300w-lightweight-4-ch-power-amp--248-6564
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Here's are the exciters being referenced - https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-daex32ep-4-thruster-32mm-exciter-40w-4-ohm--295-230
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Mr Latte
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Okay guys, good to see more of you are starting to take an interest in this.
I think it would be good to initially have around 4-6 people willing to jump on-board and have the requested 6 channel configuration installed. If this happens in the next week or two then I would create a thread for an overview and discussion topic for this concept and the effects I share (with those people). At the moment these (beta effects) will not be issued to everyone. It is how I want to keep focus on the concept and the recommended exciters being used.
I have easily over 2000 hours put into effects testing with Shake it but much of the early effects are now not compatible with the newest version. Although from that still much progress was made and I am still learning all the time. My abilities are more in the effects, others at the Discord channel have been good at applying operations within the tool-set to control how "CUSTOM" effects operate with the telemetry. Normally what happens is I ask someone can you create a ruleset for a specific scenario "to do this" and then I get to work on building an effect to work for that idea.
Many of you seem interested primarily in RPM to add to the SFX but what I seek is feedback from owners as to what effects work well or can/can't be felt when the motion is operating. @Anton has had some effects from a few months back but things have moved on a bit since even those.
Possible amp options:
I will be trying the Behringer EPQ304
Don't know how noisy its fan is but this looks to be a sleek and well-suited amp offering around 70W
Yes we only need 40W but you always want an amp to have headroom so that the amp is never running to its limits constantly. Note guys, this amp has "Signal and Clip LEDs" which are good when testing individual effects and seeing the channels operating. It will help you know if the volume output from the soundcard of certain effects are too strong with the volume being used with the amp.
Sure Electronics TDA7498 6x100W
You may of seen over the years these small class D board amps. Some members here I think also have experience with them. These are a bit more d.i.y needing a power supply but are compact and can be purchased in 4 and 6 channel options. Parts Express.com and Amazon may have these.
Pedals?
The focus, for now, is creating effects to work in the seat.
Yes we can place another 4 units in pedals using the pedal plates/stems (Fanatec motor style) and the foot-rest plate section for specif effects distribution. Yow will find once using Simhub for a little time it is very easy to direct effects to additional channels or additional soundcards. I had asked the developer to make it possible to enable "per effect volume" and also the ability to create "effect groups" for advanced control options. Wotever has been brillant in being able to add so many requested features to this software and I have to say features like this would not of been possible with alternatives like SSW or Simvibe. So credit to him in not only how great he is but how good Shakeit has become.
We perhaps need to look at soundcard options or discuss what we consider using.
I think it may be @Flag Ghost that has multiple USB Omini cards already in his own build? We can, of course, use a combination of onboard, PCI or USB soundcards. I am not sure if this will cause any compatibility issues.
I think it would be good to initially have around 4-6 people willing to jump on-board and have the requested 6 channel configuration installed. If this happens in the next week or two then I would create a thread for an overview and discussion topic for this concept and the effects I share (with those people). At the moment these (beta effects) will not be issued to everyone. It is how I want to keep focus on the concept and the recommended exciters being used.
I have easily over 2000 hours put into effects testing with Shake it but much of the early effects are now not compatible with the newest version. Although from that still much progress was made and I am still learning all the time. My abilities are more in the effects, others at the Discord channel have been good at applying operations within the tool-set to control how "CUSTOM" effects operate with the telemetry. Normally what happens is I ask someone can you create a ruleset for a specific scenario "to do this" and then I get to work on building an effect to work for that idea.
Many of you seem interested primarily in RPM to add to the SFX but what I seek is feedback from owners as to what effects work well or can/can't be felt when the motion is operating. @Anton has had some effects from a few months back but things have moved on a bit since even those.
Possible amp options:
I will be trying the Behringer EPQ304
Don't know how noisy its fan is but this looks to be a sleek and well-suited amp offering around 70W
Yes we only need 40W but you always want an amp to have headroom so that the amp is never running to its limits constantly. Note guys, this amp has "Signal and Clip LEDs" which are good when testing individual effects and seeing the channels operating. It will help you know if the volume output from the soundcard of certain effects are too strong with the volume being used with the amp.
Sure Electronics TDA7498 6x100W
You may of seen over the years these small class D board amps. Some members here I think also have experience with them. These are a bit more d.i.y needing a power supply but are compact and can be purchased in 4 and 6 channel options. Parts Express.com and Amazon may have these.
Pedals?
The focus, for now, is creating effects to work in the seat.
Yes we can place another 4 units in pedals using the pedal plates/stems (Fanatec motor style) and the foot-rest plate section for specif effects distribution. Yow will find once using Simhub for a little time it is very easy to direct effects to additional channels or additional soundcards. I had asked the developer to make it possible to enable "per effect volume" and also the ability to create "effect groups" for advanced control options. Wotever has been brillant in being able to add so many requested features to this software and I have to say features like this would not of been possible with alternatives like SSW or Simvibe. So credit to him in not only how great he is but how good Shakeit has become.
We perhaps need to look at soundcard options or discuss what we consider using.
I think it may be @Flag Ghost that has multiple USB Omini cards already in his own build? We can, of course, use a combination of onboard, PCI or USB soundcards. I am not sure if this will cause any compatibility issues.
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Yes I have had 3 USB Soundblaster Omni's working at the same time without any issue.
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Hey All
Yesterday I finished my SFX100. On my previous rig I had the following SimVibe setup:
4x Dayton BST1 - in chassis mode - one in each corner of my frame
1x Fame Quad AMP 4150 4 channel amp
I want to cover as much as possible tactile feedback to compliment the SFX. If I'm not mistaken RPM and traction loss are not covered (by default) by the SFX? Does anybody have advice and / or experience where to mount the transducers for optimal feedback regarding RPM, traction loss? I was thinking about bottom seat, back seat, pedals? If somebody has already a tweaked down Simvibe profile to start from I would be very grateful
I don't want to kill any of the awesome effects the SFX already brings
Yesterday I finished my SFX100. On my previous rig I had the following SimVibe setup:
4x Dayton BST1 - in chassis mode - one in each corner of my frame
1x Fame Quad AMP 4150 4 channel amp
I want to cover as much as possible tactile feedback to compliment the SFX. If I'm not mistaken RPM and traction loss are not covered (by default) by the SFX? Does anybody have advice and / or experience where to mount the transducers for optimal feedback regarding RPM, traction loss? I was thinking about bottom seat, back seat, pedals? If somebody has already a tweaked down Simvibe profile to start from I would be very grateful
I don't want to kill any of the awesome effects the SFX already brings
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I would recommend one or more transducers on the seat and then again under the pedal plate. Left / Right separation is really not needed with SFX. I'm running RPM and wheel slip / lock with SimHub. I HIGHLY recommend moving from SimVibe to SimHub. As a long time user of SimVibe.. SimHub is definitely easier to use and more powerful.
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Mr Latte
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I would kinda disagree on that point.
Its worth more discussion but If I am right SFX is limited to mono based effects?
While it is clear it can produce loads of energy it does not seem to offer the possibilities we might be able to get from specialist tactile like Simhub makes possible.
For me personally left/right separation can make a big impression on the immersion. Simply because it can tie-in with what's happening within the sim and the car..
Again not having experience with SFX yet I cant be certain how well each option benefits over the other or how we make the most of both. What I can say is with additional tactile we can tie in all these for stereo placed immersion to complement the motion.
It is possible to have very clear and very distinctive stereo placement when we use these options. I don't see how it wouldn't further increase the immersion with motion but then again I can't say I have ever seen many attempts in peoples builds to really try to merge both motion and tactile methods with high-end hardware. In the attempt to compare motion with and without an extensive tactile installation aimed to combine both positional tactile with the motion.
Its worth more discussion but If I am right SFX is limited to mono based effects?
While it is clear it can produce loads of energy it does not seem to offer the possibilities we might be able to get from specialist tactile like Simhub makes possible.
For me personally left/right separation can make a big impression on the immersion. Simply because it can tie-in with what's happening within the sim and the car..
- Visually onscreen
- Stereo positioning from audio and effects placement
- Relate with user feedback for steering input
- Combine with physical motion
Again not having experience with SFX yet I cant be certain how well each option benefits over the other or how we make the most of both. What I can say is with additional tactile we can tie in all these for stereo placed immersion to complement the motion.
- Telemetry based positional bumps from suspension.
- Audio tactile positional feedback synced with headphone audio for L/R based audio effects
- Lateral G positional feedback
- Wheel slip positional feedback (title dependent)
- Telemetry based "speed with curving" for L/R steering input
It is possible to have very clear and very distinctive stereo placement when we use these options. I don't see how it wouldn't further increase the immersion with motion but then again I can't say I have ever seen many attempts in peoples builds to really try to merge both motion and tactile methods with high-end hardware. In the attempt to compare motion with and without an extensive tactile installation aimed to combine both positional tactile with the motion.
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Mr Latte
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I am currently working on two ways to extract the most from the 6 way exciter config for the back of a seat.
Option 1:
One way is to split multiple effects over the different channels giving each channel-specific roles for certain effects. In some scenarios, we can have an effect use layers to extend to other channels. Yet do this and still avoid the typical issue in overwhelming a tactile unit with too many effects to deal with.
Now, we can, of course, add to these 6 units on the back of the seat as several people are asking me. My own goal is to find combinations that work well in how we best place effects. I believe this will vary on the user's preference but we will likely find using common models like BK or TST units placed under the seat will work with certain effects and keep the back of the seat for others.
I am intrigued by what we can do here and looking to get off my ass to have part of my new seat build up and running with the extra units it will use. This will help clarify what direction for effects placement and usage of channels may work well. Just that recently other purchases have got in the way of me making progress with physically getting the new build underway.
Option 2:
Another option I am testing which is working towards what it seems several SFX owners want is to have mainly just RPM and gear used with tactile and stick with SFX for other stuff.
I have engine based effects that are using the 6 channels for specific layers and each being used to combine together. So the different channels are bringing specific elements in the output of the rpm range. This is a very different approach in effects creation, to having typically 1,2 or more tactile on the back of a seat for engine rpm and then each unit just pumping out the same thing or same effects.
I think some of you are going to love it...
Option 1:
One way is to split multiple effects over the different channels giving each channel-specific roles for certain effects. In some scenarios, we can have an effect use layers to extend to other channels. Yet do this and still avoid the typical issue in overwhelming a tactile unit with too many effects to deal with.
Now, we can, of course, add to these 6 units on the back of the seat as several people are asking me. My own goal is to find combinations that work well in how we best place effects. I believe this will vary on the user's preference but we will likely find using common models like BK or TST units placed under the seat will work with certain effects and keep the back of the seat for others.
I am intrigued by what we can do here and looking to get off my ass to have part of my new seat build up and running with the extra units it will use. This will help clarify what direction for effects placement and usage of channels may work well. Just that recently other purchases have got in the way of me making progress with physically getting the new build underway.
Option 2:
Another option I am testing which is working towards what it seems several SFX owners want is to have mainly just RPM and gear used with tactile and stick with SFX for other stuff.
I have engine based effects that are using the 6 channels for specific layers and each being used to combine together. So the different channels are bringing specific elements in the output of the rpm range. This is a very different approach in effects creation, to having typically 1,2 or more tactile on the back of a seat for engine rpm and then each unit just pumping out the same thing or same effects.
I think some of you are going to love it...
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RCHeliguy
Premium
$66 for 6 x 100W is pretty good. I've got the 4 channel version of this same amp and it has been working well for a year now. The question is where to find a 600W of power supply for it. I used a 400W class H LED power supply that I got off of Ebay that could be adjusted up to 39V with a pot and was dirt cheap.
https://www.parts-express.com/sure-...100w-tda7498-class-d-amplifier-board--320-307
https://www.parts-express.com/sure-...100w-tda7498-class-d-amplifier-board--320-307
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Mr Latte
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I suspect for some cars you would want a smoother or harder jolt but what your doing is comparing the force the motion can produce with the force tactile can only muster, yes?
With motion, the user would likely implement a moderate jolt sensation but for some cars reduce this or others increase it. Yet each is just, really steps in force/jolt being applied by the motion, am I correct?
With tactile in how I see it being used, it is not just about creating a force that of course cannot compete with the energy the motion can bring.
Yet what the tactile can do, with creativity in effects is bring different felt character to how a gearchange feels on one car to another. We also can determine how a gearchange might combine with a nice RPM sensation at high revs. Well, I think we can do more than just use the "jolt/force" that motion brings but it seems lots of motion users compare motion/tactile based on the force that can be applied and not sensations which the tactile can generate and motion may not.
The question is when a user has quite a high force/jolt from the motion can we still feel what the tactile is doing? This is where this concept helps in using multiple channels and body zones. I guess in testing we will find out if/what works or does not and if we can bring something more to even simple effects like gearchange over what the motion already does.
Remember it's about combining both to further the immersion, not one trying to replace the other
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Mr Latte - It seems imperative that you beg, borrow, or cheat your way into a SFX-100 Setup sooner rather than later. Not having one for immediate testing feedback would surely hamper your ability to create for this end goal. It would be a shame to have to completely overhaul ever effect after so much work.. What is your current SFX build time frame?
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Mr Latte
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I seem to be an odd case, as I know some have rushed to get the SFX and loved it.
Purchased so far are the 3D printed parts and SFX Shield. My next components will be the 8020 but my own build is not going to be like the standard build. So it would then leave mainly getting the actuators and the bit that puts me off the most is the internals.
I think the best way to explain my rig, is that it will be an experimental tactile based rig with added motion. Rather than a motion rig with added tactile.
My focus it has to be said is on the tactile first and get that installed to the new build but having a build that is ready to add SFX. Other things like new sofa, holidays etc will just push back the SFX. It could be more like November before I would have the SFX complete, really I dont know but would like it before the year ends for sure.
Part of wanting to share the tactile exciter concept and effects I am working on is to get feedback from SFX owners. We all then gain, in discovering what effects work well and what people prefer. We then can also work on how other tactile work with the exciters and discover how we combine everything with what SFX already offers.
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