Cars RSR Formula 3 v4.0
- Thread starter Andrea Lojelo
- Start date
I just tested the F317. Excellent quality! I just have a doubt: aren't these kind of cars supposed to have semi-automatic gearboxes? Specially the F317, because at the moment you need to manually blip the throttle. I may be misinformed, though, so that's why it's a doubt.
Keep up the great work!
Edit: Just to clarify, you can downshift without blipping, but I was under the impression that in these kind of cars there is an auto blip on downshifts.
Keep up the great work!
Edit: Just to clarify, you can downshift without blipping, but I was under the impression that in these kind of cars there is an auto blip on downshifts.
Last edited:
Apologies for the confusion. When I said "New 3d model (once more created from scratch)", I simply meant that it's a new car model, different from the previous, entirely created by our team (not copied from other models in different games). I didn't mean that we've started from zero in every single details. It wouldn't make sense. Some parts are based on our previous model, as you clearly showed, others (the most) are instead completely remodeled, or refined.
as far as I know it's all completely manual. At least the older model was. I remember I had a discussion about it with @tristancliffe about it, but I might be mistaken.
Cote Dazur
SIM Addict
Is there a point in keeping the old version and just add the new one, and if so what would be the best way to proceed.
you can just override. the old car is 100% the same, for now.
Thank you for update.
I just did test race with AI around Watkins Glen and every single ai crashed.
Ran AI aggression at 50% and 100% AI strength.
Maybe something in brake hint or trail hint got missed at moment all ai crashes out.
I just did test race with AI around Watkins Glen and every single ai crashed.
Ran AI aggression at 50% and 100% AI strength.
Maybe something in brake hint or trail hint got missed at moment all ai crashes out.
AI is difficult for this car. In few tracks they do mistakes in a couple of corners. Imola (Villenueve) and Brands Hatch (Westfield) are very bad. In both cases, the cars that are overtaking, jump on the curb and create a mess with other cars.
The only option I had was to make them slower. I didn't like that
At the end I've taken the decision to have a decent AI in the most of the tracks I've tried (Silverstone, Spa, Vallelunga...), with competitive times, and accept that in those 2 corners of those 2 tracks they will pile up when they are in group.
For me that was a better option compared to have AI driving 1-2 sec slower in every track.
I've tried multiple options, but I didn't manage to do better than this, unfortunately.
Also Stefano confirmed that, in case the do that, there is not much else to do than make them slower.
Those car are very stiff. Jumping on curbs on a wrong angle upsets them a lot.
The only option I had was to make them slower. I didn't like that
At the end I've taken the decision to have a decent AI in the most of the tracks I've tried (Silverstone, Spa, Vallelunga...), with competitive times, and accept that in those 2 corners of those 2 tracks they will pile up when they are in group.
For me that was a better option compared to have AI driving 1-2 sec slower in every track.
I've tried multiple options, but I didn't manage to do better than this, unfortunately.
Also Stefano confirmed that, in case the do that, there is not much else to do than make them slower.
Those car are very stiff. Jumping on curbs on a wrong angle upsets them a lot.
This car made me do some research about technical regulations and whatnot . Here is a few things that I found that could be useful to explain some questions that the more curious (like me) might have about this mod.
So, as mentioned earlier I was puzzled as to why these kind of cars didn't have autoblip on downshifts. Later, while comparing the F312 and F317 I was even more confused as to why there was such a noticeable gap in performance. I tested both in Spielberg and I was getting quite consistently in the 1.25s in the F317, which is not too far off from the 2017 F3 European Championship top qualy time (1.23.3) -at least for me, because I'm not an excellent driver, so I take that some aliens can get even closer or even beat that time-. When I took the F312 for a ride, no matter how many times I changed my setup, including aero, gear ratio, etc, I couldn't even get a sub-1.30 time. My best time was a 1.30.5. And I hear you say "Well, that's pretty obvious, the F317 has a more advanced aero package, ECU and Engine". Well, yeah, but if you look at the historical results in the F3 European Championship web, you'll see that the time difference between the F312 and F317 is more or less of 1 second per lap.
So... Where did those other 4 seconds go? For this, you first have to know that Formula 3 is not a category with very strict guidelines that apply worldwide. Sure, you have some general rules, but there are some crucial things that are let to the series organizer's discretion. One such things is how much power the engine can output. After a lot of laps and frustration, I compared the F312 and F317's power, and there was the first big difference: 210 bhp vs 246 bhp. I went straight to the F3 European Championship's web and checked if the regulations changed so much that with the change of car allowed so much more power. They didn't, in fact all the tech specs I could find in that web estimated the power of the engine in around 240 bhp. So, I thought, did these guys just got THAT MUCH wrong? Of course not, I would even say that these two cars are super accurate (although I have some qualms to which I'll refer later). The thing is, like I said, these cars are based on two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT F3 series. As stated in the description of the mod, for the F312 they had data from Tristan Cliffe, which competed in the MSV's F3 UK Cup series. For the F317, I take that they based it on the F3 European Championship. The thing is, the regulations for both series are very very different. For instance, if you compare the times from Silverstone GP (the only track that these two series share nowadays) you'll find that the F3 UK Cup car are slower. How much? 3-4 seconds slower. And there we have our answer as to why there was such a difference in time. My guess is that they have much more restrictions engine-wise, and that the tyres are slower than the Hankook tyres that the F3 European Championship uses, but it could be anything else. Now, thing is, also, that when loading the F312 car I always saw it labeled as a F307 in the loading screen, and I wondered why could that happen or if that could be a mistake. I don't think it is. As per DriverDB (https://www.driverdb.com/drivers/tristan-cliffe/) the car that Tristan Cliffe drove wasn't a F312, but a F307 (and I'm guessing that's the car where the data came). Now, this could be very wrong, but that is my guess as to why the F307 appeared on the loading screen.
As to my initial question about the gearboxes, I think we were both right! Again, we were just talking about different series. The technical regulations for the F3 UK Cup don't even allow paddle shifting (or at least that's what it says), so like you said, everything is pretty much like in a early 2000's GT1 car: you have a sequential stick, and you don't have to lift on the upshifts, but you certainly have to blip on the downshifts. On the other hand, the technical regulations for the European F3 Championship allow a semi automatic paddle-shifted gearbox, so my guess is that those kind of gearboxes do have auto blip on the downshifts. Maybe this last thing could be implemented into the mod, if this is true.
I know this post was kind of long, but I really love this car and got genuinely curious about pretty much everything! I wasn't thinking on posting this, but I guess this info can help in understanding how these two cars are so different, and yet very accurate!
. Here is a few things that I found that could be useful to explain some questions that the more curious (like me) might have about this mod.So, as mentioned earlier I was puzzled as to why these kind of cars didn't have autoblip on downshifts. Later, while comparing the F312 and F317 I was even more confused as to why there was such a noticeable gap in performance. I tested both in Spielberg and I was getting quite consistently in the 1.25s in the F317, which is not too far off from the 2017 F3 European Championship top qualy time (1.23.3) -at least for me, because I'm not an excellent driver, so I take that some aliens can get even closer or even beat that time-. When I took the F312 for a ride, no matter how many times I changed my setup, including aero, gear ratio, etc, I couldn't even get a sub-1.30 time. My best time was a 1.30.5. And I hear you say "Well, that's pretty obvious, the F317 has a more advanced aero package, ECU and Engine". Well, yeah, but if you look at the historical results in the F3 European Championship web, you'll see that the time difference between the F312 and F317 is more or less of 1 second per lap.
So... Where did those other 4 seconds go? For this, you first have to know that Formula 3 is not a category with very strict guidelines that apply worldwide. Sure, you have some general rules, but there are some crucial things that are let to the series organizer's discretion. One such things is how much power the engine can output. After a lot of laps and frustration, I compared the F312 and F317's power, and there was the first big difference: 210 bhp vs 246 bhp. I went straight to the F3 European Championship's web and checked if the regulations changed so much that with the change of car allowed so much more power. They didn't, in fact all the tech specs I could find in that web estimated the power of the engine in around 240 bhp. So, I thought, did these guys just got THAT MUCH wrong? Of course not, I would even say that these two cars are super accurate (although I have some qualms to which I'll refer later). The thing is, like I said, these cars are based on two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT F3 series. As stated in the description of the mod, for the F312 they had data from Tristan Cliffe, which competed in the MSV's F3 UK Cup series. For the F317, I take that they based it on the F3 European Championship. The thing is, the regulations for both series are very very different. For instance, if you compare the times from Silverstone GP (the only track that these two series share nowadays) you'll find that the F3 UK Cup car are slower. How much? 3-4 seconds slower. And there we have our answer as to why there was such a difference in time. My guess is that they have much more restrictions engine-wise, and that the tyres are slower than the Hankook tyres that the F3 European Championship uses, but it could be anything else. Now, thing is, also, that when loading the F312 car I always saw it labeled as a F307 in the loading screen, and I wondered why could that happen or if that could be a mistake. I don't think it is. As per DriverDB (https://www.driverdb.com/drivers/tristan-cliffe/) the car that Tristan Cliffe drove wasn't a F312, but a F307 (and I'm guessing that's the car where the data came). Now, this could be very wrong, but that is my guess as to why the F307 appeared on the loading screen.
As to my initial question about the gearboxes, I think we were both right! Again, we were just talking about different series. The technical regulations for the F3 UK Cup don't even allow paddle shifting (or at least that's what it says), so like you said, everything is pretty much like in a early 2000's GT1 car: you have a sequential stick, and you don't have to lift on the upshifts, but you certainly have to blip on the downshifts. On the other hand, the technical regulations for the European F3 Championship allow a semi automatic paddle-shifted gearbox, so my guess is that those kind of gearboxes do have auto blip on the downshifts. Maybe this last thing could be implemented into the mod, if this is true.
I know this post was kind of long, but I really love this car and got genuinely curious about pretty much everything! I wasn't thinking on posting this, but I guess this info can help in understanding how these two cars are so different, and yet very accurate!
I love when people take time to check facts and figures before posting.This car made me do some research about technical regulations and whatnot
So, as mentioned earlier I was puzzled as to why these kind of cars didn't have autoblip on downshifts. Later, while comparing the F312 and F317 I was even more confused as to why there was such a noticeable gap in performance. I tested both in Spielberg and I was getting quite consistently in the 1.25s in the F317, which is not too far off from the 2017 F3 European Championship top qualy time (1.23.3) -at least for me, because I'm not an excellent driver, so I take that some aliens can get even closer or even beat that time-. When I took the F312 for a ride, no matter how many times I changed my setup, including aero, gear ratio, etc, I couldn't even get a sub-1.30 time. My best time was a 1.30.5. And I hear you say "Well, that's pretty obvious, the F317 has a more advanced aero package, ECU and Engine". Well, yeah, but if you look at the historical results in the F3 European Championship web, you'll see that the time difference between the F312 and F317 is more or less of 1 second per lap.
So... Where did those other 4 seconds go? For this, you first have to know that Formula 3 is not a category with very strict guidelines that apply worldwide. Sure, you have some general rules, but there are some crucial things that are let to the series organizer's discretion. One such things is how much power the engine can output. After a lot of laps and frustration, I compared the F312 and F317's power, and there was the first big difference: 210 bhp vs 246 bhp. I went straight to the F3 European Championship's web and checked if the regulations changed so much that with the change of car allowed so much more power. They didn't, in fact all the tech specs I could find in that web estimated the power of the engine in around 240 bhp. So, I thought, did these guys just got THAT MUCH wrong? Of course not, I would even say that these two cars are super accurate (although I have some qualms to which I'll refer later). The thing is, like I said, these cars are based on two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT F3 series. As stated in the description of the mod, for the F312 they had data from Tristan Cliffe, which competed in the MSV's F3 UK Cup series. For the F317, I take that they based it on the F3 European Championship. The thing is, the regulations for both series are very very different. For instance, if you compare the times from Silverstone GP (the only track that these two series share nowadays) you'll find that the F3 UK Cup car are slower. How much? 3-4 seconds slower. And there we have our answer as to why there was such a difference in time. My guess is that they have much more restrictions engine-wise, and that the tyres are slower than the Hankook tyres that the F3 European Championship uses, but it could be anything else. Now, thing is, also, that when loading the F312 car I always saw it labeled as a F307 in the loading screen, and I wondered why could that happen or if that could be a mistake. I don't think it is. As per DriverDB (https://www.driverdb.com/drivers/tristan-cliffe/) the car that Tristan Cliffe drove wasn't a F312, but a F307 (and I'm guessing that's the car where the data came). Now, this could be very wrong, but that is my guess as to why the F307 appeared on the loading screen.
As to my initial question about the gearboxes, I think we were both right! Again, we were just talking about different series. The technical regulations for the F3 UK Cup don't even allow paddle shifting (or at least that's what it says), so like you said, everything is pretty much like in a early 2000's GT1 car: you have a sequential stick, and you don't have to lift on the upshifts, but you certainly have to blip on the downshifts. On the other hand, the technical regulations for the European F3 Championship allow a semi automatic paddle-shifted gearbox, so my guess is that those kind of gearboxes do have auto blip on the downshifts. Maybe this last thing could be implemented into the mod, if this is true.
I know this post was kind of long, but I really love this car and got genuinely curious about pretty much everything! I wasn't thinking on posting this, but I guess this info can help in understanding how these two cars are so different, and yet very accurate!
You got it all right, the difference is due to regulations, engine, air restrictor, aero package (if you will compare the CL in the aero app you'll be shocked
), tyres... The first car physics is indeed based on the F307 of Tristan Cliffe, and that's the reason why you see it on the loading screen. We had a long cooperation with him and his team to create this car, and we went into a lot of details with all the technical documents of every single component and with the help of telemetry.As explained in the past this was a conscious decision to get as close as possible to a real F3, instead of guessing too much.
You can read more about it in our original post. My research on those cars has been a constant evolution and refinement started somewhere in 2003. I never consider those things really finalized, since I sometimes find some new documents, or, even better, I learn something new that help me to see things from a different angle and fix my errors. To reply to @Leonardo Ratafiá, that's also why, at the end, we've decided to release those two cars in the same package. For me it really is the continuation of the same project that will keep evolving during time. We will most probably even update the old car with some improvements introduced lately, whenever I'll find time for it.
About the gearbox, I'll do some more research.
Thanks a lot for your post. I really appreciated those constructive remarks!
I did some quick checks on the gearbox, and, at least on the F3 open on the F317 they are still using the Hewland gearbox.
I spoke also with one of the engineer of the F3 Cup and he told me "In 2012, the paddle shifter wasn't allowed, but in 2014 I think they introduced it as a retrofit. Therefore, I doubt the F317 has autoblip on downshift"
I'm anyway investigating on the small lock up during down shifting.
The reason why you don't feel it brakes too much it's because the braking thermal model are implemented. That's not in implemented in all cars (including the official one), so it's simply something simracing drivers aren't very used to. Usually you just push on the brake and get 100% braking torque. With this car, is instead based on the brake drum temperature. Especially when you go out of the pits or at the start of a race, brakes are not yet in the optimal temperature range and it will take few hard brakings to get there.
As an example this is at almost at the end of the fist lap at Silverstone
and this is after 2 laps were we are finally in the optimal range.
Anyway, it's a common misconception that all racing cars lock their wheel. F3 cars barely lock the wheels while braking. They do only in limited grip conditions, as it happens for our simulated car. Check this video at 8m56s and 15m47s.
As you can see it's very difficult to lock wheels. This has been confirmed also by @tristancliffe. He helped us to validate the thermal model. Also telemetry readings matches the data we have.
From our release notes:
Brakes pads efficiency based on real data
Thermal model for brakes. Driving feeling with cold brakes has been verified with Omicron Motorsport’s drivers.
We've modeled the PROF3 brake pad. Tristan tried the FER4003 on his own real car, but he didn't like it (easy to see why).
Brake temperatures raises according to a paper I found, in which similar brakes were tested and the initial/final brake temperature was measured in a repetition of consecutive braking from 200 to 80 km/h
One more note: as suggested by @After_Midnight , I'll introduce the Brake Multiplier in the next available release so that you can easier set the brake force to the point of your liking at the load cell brake with the pressure setting available.
I spoke also with one of the engineer of the F3 Cup and he told me "In 2012, the paddle shifter wasn't allowed, but in 2014 I think they introduced it as a retrofit. Therefore, I doubt the F317 has autoblip on downshift"
I'm anyway investigating on the small lock up during down shifting.
I've checked once more my calculations and are indeed as expected.
The reason why you don't feel it brakes too much it's because the braking thermal model are implemented. That's not in implemented in all cars (including the official one), so it's simply something simracing drivers aren't very used to. Usually you just push on the brake and get 100% braking torque. With this car, is instead based on the brake drum temperature. Especially when you go out of the pits or at the start of a race, brakes are not yet in the optimal temperature range and it will take few hard brakings to get there.
As an example this is at almost at the end of the fist lap at Silverstone
and this is after 2 laps were we are finally in the optimal range.
Anyway, it's a common misconception that all racing cars lock their wheel. F3 cars barely lock the wheels while braking. They do only in limited grip conditions, as it happens for our simulated car. Check this video at 8m56s and 15m47s.
As you can see it's very difficult to lock wheels. This has been confirmed also by @tristancliffe. He helped us to validate the thermal model. Also telemetry readings matches the data we have.
From our release notes:
Brakes pads efficiency based on real data
Thermal model for brakes. Driving feeling with cold brakes has been verified with Omicron Motorsport’s drivers.
We've modeled the PROF3 brake pad. Tristan tried the FER4003 on his own real car, but he didn't like it (easy to see why).
Brake temperatures raises according to a paper I found, in which similar brakes were tested and the initial/final brake temperature was measured in a repetition of consecutive braking from 200 to 80 km/h
One more note: as suggested by @After_Midnight , I'll introduce the Brake Multiplier in the next available release so that you can easier set the brake force to the point of your liking at the load cell brake with the pressure setting available.
I found a confirmation that there is no blip on our car.
https://www.hewland.com/race-series-control-components/
"Hewland contribute controlled gearboxes to a number of race series such as FIA Formula 3, GP2 and DTM. The control components involved are all of those involved in the gear change – including the six-speed Hewland gearbox. This means they have to be identical in every car. DTM uses our 6-speed semi-automatic transmission operated by paddle shifters but our 6-speed sequential manual transmission operated by gear lever or paddle shift is preferred for Formula 3 and GP2 open-wheel series. "
https://www.hewland.com/wpcproduct/semi-auto-systems/
"A separate pneumatic throttle actuator (‘blipper’) is used in order to operate the throttle – this is not required when a Fly-By-Wire throttle body is used."
This is only on bespoke installation of the JFR-200
https://www.hewland.com/wpcproduct/jfr-200/
Just to add some info, on the parts catalogue, they list the paddle shift blipper as a part (PS 3 is the part number), so I'm pretty sure they do use autoblip on downshifts on the Euroformula Open. The Hewland gearbox (I'm guessing they use the F3B-200) has an optional adaptation to semi-auto, which I'm positive they use in the European F3 Championship (otherwise, they wouldn't have paddle-shifted gear changes
), and that semi-auto adaptation has an optional blipper add-on. In short, it is kind of a mess, and I'd guess that every series chooses what to use. Thanks for checking on the subject, though! I really like when people try to make the cars as close as possible to the real thing by any means possible, as I'm also kind of a perfectionist.
If you take a look at the F3 Euro Series 2017 Technical Regulation, it seems that a throttle blipper could be authorized
Check the article :
- 1.20 (Semi-automatic gearbox :One which, when the driver calls for a gear change, takes over the control of one or more of the engine, clutch and gear selectors momentarily to enable the gear to be engaged. )
- 5.7.4 (Throttle command must be mechanical. Hydraulic or electrical drive is not permitted. A pneumatic valve acting on throttle for the sole purpose of semi-automatic shifting is allowed.)
- 13.4 (Clutch, brake and throttle pedal : The clutch, brake and throttle pedal may only be operated by the driver’s foot. [...] The only exception to the above is the homologated blipper cylinder when used as designed by the FIA designated supplier. )
I don't know if the F317, which your data came from, was supplied with a paddle shifter and an autoblipper, but I think that, if the regulations authorized it, the car would have it in order to be competitive
Anyway, your car is a blast and you've done, one more time, an amazing job.
Check the article :
- 1.20 (Semi-automatic gearbox :One which, when the driver calls for a gear change, takes over the control of one or more of the engine, clutch and gear selectors momentarily to enable the gear to be engaged. )
- 5.7.4 (Throttle command must be mechanical. Hydraulic or electrical drive is not permitted. A pneumatic valve acting on throttle for the sole purpose of semi-automatic shifting is allowed.)
- 13.4 (Clutch, brake and throttle pedal : The clutch, brake and throttle pedal may only be operated by the driver’s foot. [...] The only exception to the above is the homologated blipper cylinder when used as designed by the FIA designated supplier. )
I don't know if the F317, which your data came from, was supplied with a paddle shifter and an autoblipper, but I think that, if the regulations authorized it, the car would have it in order to be competitive
Anyway, your car is a blast and you've done, one more time, an amazing job.
Thanks a lot guys. Appreciated. I'll change my mind then you got better evidences. Lesson for myself: never trust producer websites. Might be not updated.
As you said, anyway, every championship has its own rule on what is allowed or not, to keep the costs down.
you got better evidences. Lesson for myself: never trust producer websites. Might be not updated. As you said, anyway, every championship has its own rule on what is allowed or not, to keep the costs down.
hi guys, I cant get these cars to work. i ecxtrace the 2 cars from the package and place them in the usual place, it works fine for the TCR I also got. What am I doing wrong?
You also need to insert the driver and font files.
You just have to unpack the package as is in the assetto corsa main folder.
Please check the message below
The package can be unpacked directly in AC main folder. The folder structure in the package has been created to match AC folder structure. Just unpack it all in the main folder and everything will go in the right place.
If you still have issues, please verify you AC files integrity in Steam.
Gday all. I’ve caught the hotlap bug! I’ve found myself running some laps in the Dallara F317, at the Nordschleife.... In this lap I manage to post a lap record on RSR. Thanks guys, this car is amazing!
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