AC Round 14 of 23 Formula Agile@Zandvoort Thu, 24th August 2023

[KFMaster]

British Touring Tourette Cars, instead of British Touring Cars Championship?
Sorry, just came into my mind from Ernie's ballet dance, doing pirouettes

Absolutely! You can quickly change between touring cars, but aero single seaters are really different. I always need about 2 hours with the FA to really get up to speed when I haven't driven it for longer than 2 weeks.

Glad to know even for skilled drivers this is the case! Going forward, I am going to stick to one car at a time. This switching thing is just too inefficient.

 

[gearwhine]

I use Pro tyre Dai, but only to see how far my tyres will last and that they are not running hot. I still go by feel when pressures are concerned. I tend to run a little higher because the car feels sharper plus with the Agile i run at least 20psi in the front and it grips better for some reason

 

[RasmusP]

Motec has lots of data, but I have no clue how to map that to camber setting.

You don't

That thing is simple, you watch it, if histogram is blue, more positive camber, if red, more negative camber. Kind a camber for dummy.

Yes and no. I always record my sessions with OBS (nvenc, basically costs no performance at all, same what shadow play uses).
The crucial thing isn't to have the most green. It's about "what happens at the outside tyres, when I understeer/oversteer".
Sometimes you start to ride a kerb and your front tire goes from green to red and you wash wide.
And sometimes you go onto a kerb and your rear tyre goes red and you spin out.
I mostly set my cars up to barely ever go red at the rear when touching normal kerbs, but definitely go red at the front.
That way you'll have more oversteer while not touching kerbs (fronts get green, rears still blue) and when riding kerbs, the rear won't insta-spin, while your fronts will mildly understeer.
This was essential with the RSS GT1!

It would be nice if it can record the data and import it be Motec. Right now one would have to watch the histography during a test lap and mentally average out the histography to adjust the camber.

Record it via OBS if your PC has the spare performance. Both nvidia and amd have video decoders on the GPU that can be used without a real fps loss.
And then watch it as slowly as you need to, corner by corner

The CE download page also have all the formulas it uses. I suspect Motec has all the variables needed and we can probably writing a new math channel to do the same calculation. Not sure if some one may have already done it.

Sadly that won't work. You need some fancy Ingame variables that aren't written into the Motec files afaik

Now the tire pressure setting. I have been using the sidekick's tire pressure recommendation. But that is just a number. If I look at my lap data, it varies through out a lap. Motec has a nice thing where it shows the Max, Min, and Avg of the pressure for what ever the window you have on the trace. So I have tried to set the pressure to make either one of the three to match the sidekick recommendation. But I could not tell any difference in driving And my lap time just isn't consistent enough for me say which pressure is better. So I have been leaving it at Avg and just match the left and right for CCW and CW circuits.

It's not that complex. By how much do your values vary? Within 2 psi is totally fine!
Again, I'd record the session and watch what's the situation is for the most critical parts of the lap. Then set it up for wherever you have the biggest issues.

I take what you said, Steve, is that I am better off to set it for the higher end, that is, to make minimum pressure match the recommendation?

As Steve says, higher psi feel better with the agile than lower.
In AC, it doesn't really matter for the temperatures. Even 10 psi too much or too low won't bring your tyre into its temp window!
So you just do it like with CE: perfect psi according to sidekick will give you maximum grip.
You have a small range that you can adjust simply by feel. It doesn't change the performance as long as you're within about 2.5 psi +/-

 

[Kek700]

Just to add, i tend not to use CE much now, I sometimes use it for a ball park, to see where I am. Mostly I take the view that camber and track are so dynamic that I use tyre temps IMO and lap times and feel. ( yes I know that IMO in AC is not very accurate way of doing things )
I should really use OBS but can never get it to work in a simple way, ( seem to spend all my time fiddling with it and not using it ).

I will I think put more effort into that after reading the above from Rasmus.

At some point I will probably return to CE, but I like my simple method of setting up the car combining it with practice means I don’t have to do much practice, as setup and practice becomes a combined package.

I fear those days may be numbered as everyone seems to get faster and faster.
Once there was never a squashed grid of 1/2 second between the top 10, now it is common place. So it can seem very off putting if you are starting your sim racing journey. The ladder has almost disappeared.

For @KFMaster

I am still in the process of making the pedals a bit more aesthetically attractive, the problem is 5mm carbon is not exactly cheap, other materials could be used.
This is we’re I am at present, the flat carbon make it easy to use bare feet, and there size means that they distribute the pressure much more evenly.
The side plates stop my feet from wandering, there have been times when I have caused mayhem when loosing my footing on the brake and taking four cars out in the braking zone. Funnily they did not seem very amused by this process.

 

[stigs2cousin]

I feel you on the "squashed grid", were in a very competetive environmet (shark tank ) right now.

Like Ernie I don´t want to fuss with extra programs like OBS, I guesstimate tyre pressures from the Motec data. As Rasmus said, when you´re in the ball park (green numbers on the AC Tyre App) you´re golden.

And you´re both right, AC is NOT REALISTIC how it reacts to setup changes.
The base physics have been developed a long time ago with way less resources in the average gaming PC, so they are woefully stunted and inacurate. Someone even postulated that ACV uses a one point surface contact instead of a contact patch ( in which the pressure distribution and variing size due to suspension articulation plays the main role).

 

[RasmusP]

I should really use OBS but can never get it to work in a simple way, ( seem to spend all my time fiddling with it and not using it ).

I will I think put more effort into that after reading the above from Rasmus.

Did you ever try nvidia shadow play from within geforce experience?
Beware though: do NOT say yes to optimizing your games! It will do stuff like selecting 8k textures while disabling anti aliasing!

I can create a basic screenshot guide over the next days if interested

And you´re both right, AC is NOT REALISTIC how it reacts to setup changes.
The base physics have been developed a long time ago with way less resources in the average gaming PC, so they are woefully stunted and inacurate. Someone even postulated that ACV uses a one point surface contact instead of a contact patch ( in which the pressure distribution and variing size due to suspension articulation plays the main role).

Yep... I mean a lot of settings work very well, like suspension stiffness, dampers, front+rear wing.
The tyre contact is 1-point though, yes. Lots of equations for that point, so it works very well, but changing pressures will only adjust the equation with look up tables, instead of dynamically influencing how a multi-point patch crawls up a kerb.
It works up to a certain point, but you can really feel the difference when driving a few hours in ACC now with v1.9 and the soft-tyre-model that came with it.
I'm currently practicing with the new Ferrari 296 GT3 at Imola and there's a big difference between going across the sausage chicane in the last 3rd of the lap with 26.1 psi or 26.9 psi!
The new "optimum range" is 26-27 psi.
For a qualy lap, you can even go softer, but your car will start to "smear" in high speed turns.

So there's definitely some headroom in realism in AC. However I love that we at least get "all the data", so we can at least make sense from what AC is doing.
The camber is really just an equation and a single point changing its angle.
In ACC, you can feel the tyres wobbling/scrubbing up a kerb in a different way when you adjust the camber.
More camber always means more grip though, but you'll degrade your tyres way quicker.
So a different approach and "easy" to get decently correct, since you simply start with the maximum and lower it depending on the handling that you feel and how long your stint will be.

In AC, I've never noticed a difference in "smearing" at the limit or degradation. Temps also basically stay identical...
The biggest difference is over/understeer when touching kerbs. And that's dialled in very efficiently via camber extravaganza.

 

[Kek700]

I would really like it if you can, have the time, to provide a simple guide to Nvidia Shadow, I can for sure always over complicate it myself, I am good at that.

 

[KFMaster]

I use Pro tyre Dai, but only to see how far my tyres will last and that they are not running hot. I still go by feel when pressures are concerned. I tend to run a little higher because the car feels sharper plus with the Agile i run at least 20psi in the front and it grips better for some reason

Thanks Steve, I will try play with this some more and see if I can feel the differences now that I have a specific thing to look for.

 

[KFMaster]

You don't

Yes and no. I always record my sessions with OBS (nvenc, basically costs no performance at all, same what shadow play uses).

OBS = the screen capture software? I tried to use that before I got my game PC. On a note book with Intel integrated graphics, it hugs the processor 90%. How do you enable this nvenc?

The crucial thing isn't to have the most green. It's about "what happens at the outside tyres, when I understeer/oversteer".
Sometimes you start to ride a kerb and your front tire goes from green to red and you wash wide.
And sometimes you go onto a kerb and your rear tyre goes red and you spin out.
I mostly set my cars up to barely ever go red at the rear when touching normal kerbs, but definitely go red at the front.
That way you'll have more oversteer while not touching kerbs (fronts get green, rears still blue) and when riding kerbs, the rear won't insta-spin, while your fronts will mildly understeer.
This was essential with the RSS GT1!

Aha, great to learn the more sophisticated way to use this thing!

Record it via OBS if your PC has the spare performance. Both nvidia and amd have video decoders on the GPU that can be used without a real fps loss.
And then watch it as slowly as you need to, corner by corner

Could you share how to set this up? The replay does not show the histogram, but does show the color on the histogram box. Not sure if that is true representative of the histogram?

Sadly that won't work. You need some fancy Ingame variables that aren't written into the Motec files afaik

Has any one asked the Camber Extravaganza author to get the app log the histogram?

It's not that complex. By how much do your values vary? Within 2 psi is totally fine!
Again, I'd record the session and watch what's the situation is for the most critical parts of the lap. Then set it up for wherever you have the biggest issues.

As Steve says, higher psi feel better with the agile than lower.
In AC, it doesn't really matter for the temperatures. Even 10 psi too much or too low won't bring your tyre into its temp window!
So you just do it like with CE: perfect psi according to sidekick will give you maximum grip.
You have a small range that you can adjust simply by feel. It doesn't change the performance as long as you're within about 2.5 psi +/-

Ah, Ok. The biggest variation I think was at Barcelona for FA, but max-min < 2psi. So for now I will just target min = sidekick number.

Thanks!

 

[KFMaster]

Just to add, i tend not to use CE much now, I sometimes use it for a ball park, to see where I am. Mostly I take the view that camber and track are so dynamic that I use tyre temps IMO and lap times and feel. ( yes I know that IMO in AC is not very accurate way of doing things )
I should really use OBS but can never get it to work in a simple way, ( seem to spend all my time fiddling with it and not using it ).

Would you use the OBS for anything else in addition to CE? To check out how we dirve, isn't the AC replay a super nice thing to use with its slowmo capability unrivaled by anything a video recording program could do?

For @KFMaster

I am still in the process of making the pedals a bit more aesthetically attractive, the problem is 5mm carbon is not exactly cheap, other materials could be used.
This is we’re I am at present, the flat carbon make it easy to use bare feet, and there size means that they distribute the pressure much more evenly.
The side plates stop my feet from wandering, there have been times when I have caused mayhem when loosing my footing on the brake and taking four cars out in the braking zone. Funnily they did not seem very amused by this process.

View attachment 690513

Oh my, I have never seen a pedal set like that, super trick! Is that full costume? But why is the brake fluid reservoir open without fluid in it?

Those cabon pedal face are nice. I tried to drive with just socks, but those Moza pedal I have with aluminum face and steel feet rest just suck the heat out of my feet. I ended up wearing racing shoes (actually wrestling shoes as improvision). That works really well as it is thin to provide good feel and great traction on the pedal. Plus good installation so I don't feel the bone chill on my feet.

 

[stigs2cousin]

@KFMaster :

this are the pedals:

https://www.racedepartment.com/threads/hpp-prx-se-pedal-problem.207214/

 

[Kek700]

@KFMaster

Your very observant, just checking the reservoir to see if it needed topping up.
No not custom, but the pedal plates, foot plate and side plates are custom carbon.
The reason it leaks and is empty is to do with the design, it does not need the reservoir full to work, but for some bizarre reason I always fill it up so it can drain away again :-/

 

[KFMaster]

@KFMaster :

this are the pedals:

https://www.racedepartment.com/threads/hpp-prx-se-pedal-problem.207214/

Oh boy, sounds like Ernie had some interesting experience with these, but in the end turn out to be a gem. I have to agree with Ernie, that thing looks super cool mechanically!

But it still use a load cell to sense the braking force applied right?

 

[KFMaster]

@KFMaster

Your very observant, just checking the reservoir to see if it needed topping up.
No not custom, but the pedal plates, foot plate and side plates are custom carbon.
The reason it leaks and is empty is to do with the design, it does not need the reservoir full to work, but for some bizarre reason I always fill it up so it can drain away again :-/

I don't see any puddles any where
That is the love for beautiful mechanical things, if there is a reservoir, it got to have fluid in it

 

[stigs2cousin]

But it still use a load cell to sense the braking force applied right?

Nope it uses a pressure sensor ( hydraulic pressure to voltage )

 

[RasmusP]

Nope it uses a pressure sensor ( hydraulic pressure to voltage )

What are pressure sensors for hydraulics? I'd imagine it's still a "Dehnungsmessstreifen" (elastic strip that changes electrical resistance depending on the amount of stretching applied)?

I don't know any other things that transform pressure to electric units... But ofc I'd like to learn about them

 

[stigs2cousin]

Pressure sensor aka "Druckmessdose", in principle a strain gauge
( "Dehnungsmessstreifen") behind a membrane

 

[eN1xes]

:'D

 

[KFMaster]

Pressure sensor aka "Druckmessdose", in principle a strain gauge
( "Dehnungsmessstreifen") behind a membrane
View attachment 690759

I actually thought about converting my Moza load cell pedal to a hydraulic one by buying a used kart brake set, hook up the master cylinder to the pedal and put the load cell in between the caliper pots

 

[Kek700]

I have seen these pedals at £300, the chap was dithering and not sure if he was going to buy them,three pedal set.
I did offer to buy them as a back up set, why I am not quite sure, but as soon as I said that he immediately bought them.
There nothing like someone else being interested to focus their attention.