rf2 Steam info: ISI Q&A

[Paul Jeffrey]

Back in September rFactor 2 developers Image Space Incorporated announced their intention to launch the popular simulator on the Steam platform, moving away from the current download and subscription method via ISI's own website.

With the planned go live due before Christmas 2015 many of the community have been left confused regarding what the move will mean in reality and how different Stream features can be incorporated in the sim. In response to the upcoming move, ISI have today released a short Q&A aiming to answer the most common questions.

Q&A on Steam:
If I already own rF2, can I move over to the Steam version for free?
Yes you can migrate over to the Steam version at no extra cost. Once you do this, your original non-Steam product is no longer active.

How will Steam work with Standard/Lifetime?
For those who do not buy or have Lifetime, you will need to buy online access through Steam. We will not offer Lifetime upgrades (from ‘Offline’) on Steam. We are also planning to stop doing Standard to Lifetime upgrades for the non-Steam version soon.

rF2 on Steam will offer three things:
– rF2 Offline
– 1 Year Online for rF2 (adds multiplayer to rF2 Offline)
– rF2 Lifetime (has multiplayer included)

Will my online access be carried over from non-Steam to Steam?
No, not for the standard version of rF2. We are not able to move over remaining online access, so users may want to wait until that expires before migrating. Lifetime access is carried over to Steam.

Why Steam? Why now? What Steam features are implemented in rF2?
We have done a lot of work to support Steam, including implementation of Steam Workshop for additional content. Here is a more comprehensive list:

– automatic updates of rFactor and mods
– support for Steam Workshop as a single easy source for all ISI and third party mods
– workshop items will automatically stay up to date
– leagues can use the workshop to create a convenient installation for participants
– automatic backup of car setups in the Steam cloud
– integration with the Steam matchmaker for finding servers
– support for the Steam friends system to join a friend’s game
– screenshots can be quickly shared on Steam
– broadcast options to allow (your friends or anybody) to watch you play
– streaming support that allow you to run rFactor 2 on one system but stream the graphics to another
– Steam Music Player support to listen to your favourite songs in your car and control the stereo
– statistics and achievements that you can use to compare your performance against others

Some may consider it a better platform for rFactor 2 due to the Steam integration, but we’re not planning on any Steam exclusive features (apart from those that require Steam or are enabled by using it, as can be seen above).

Will non-Steam and Steam rF2 be cross compatible?
Our goal is that MP races are cross compatible, yes.

Will a non-Steam version continue to be sold?
We will continue to sell a non-steam version for an undefined period. We may look to wind down new sales on the non-Steam version, but much like rF1, this is probably a long-term transition, if it happens at all.

Will you be upgrading your account to Steam when its available, or will the move encourage you to purchase rFactor 2 if you haven't already? Let us know your opinions in the comments section below...

 

[John-Eric Saxén]

I'm not going to pay 10€ just to even look at how many players there are online. And what cars they are driving. I'm not going to pay 10€ just to see there is nothing interesting for me. (not going to do leagues). The paywall doesn't just block people from playing online but also block people from seeing what they are actually paying for. With dlc I can actually see the things I'm getting.

You get the online block with DLC as well to an extent (at least with Assetto Corsa). In other words, if you try to join a server with DLC content you can't unless you own that piece of content (even if you have the track but someone drives with a DLC car). So for example lots of servers are now running Nordschleife, you'd be blocked out of all unless you own DLC #1, etc. As they release about one DLC per year you end up paying about the same as for rF2 multiplayer accesss if you want to enjoy the full product. Just different payment model.

 

[Ghoults]

Regardless of opinion, there can be little debate that ISI control the majority stake in industry led features.

I don't think anyone is denying the fact that rf2 has the biggest feature list of all sims by huge margin. It is the most complete racing sim in terms of physics features period.

This is where ISI make their money... licencing, not selling to the great unwashed.

Doesn't seem to make any sense then to add yearly fees. If that part of the revenue stream is already small then making it smaller doesn't really help.

So yes, they might make a few hundred thousand from DLC...

It is not few thousand DLCs or none at all. If dlcs are the way to go then the "truth" is somewhere between those exaggerated numbers... And I'm not even saying they should do a dlc.

or they can continue doing what they have been doing for years. They can continue to allow the product to speak for itself, gathering natural, sustainable momentum while promoting multiple revenue streams instead of going for a 'cash grab'

Dunno. To me the yearly fee is a cash grab.

Perhaps the fact that a very large amount of people 'supporting this genre' decided they would rather not pay for rFactor.
These people race alongside those who did buy it.... seems fair enough hey!

So they fight piracy by limiting the product usability of their paying customers? Looking at the rf2 online numbers it seems to be working.

How has rF2 dropped the ball? I remember the night I purchased rFactor 2.

I remember it too. I also remember that progress has been slow. The online numbers are low, the number of mods are low. Where is the content?

This was released in 2011:
http://www.virtualr.net/rfactor-2-car-model-renders
Where is this stuff? It's 2015 and they haven't even been able to deliver the content that they teased us in 2011... That's how they have dropped the ball. In 4 years or whatever they haven't even been able to deliver all those 18 cars. Let's see how many cars the competitors have pushed out in much shorter time frames...

I think rf2 should be the leading the best selling sim in 2015. It has the best list of features, it is the most complete sim. But it is almost forgotten by everybody except the hardcore rf2 fans. Rf1 to me was a great success. It too had a difficult start but it could keep the momentum when it had no paywalls to stop people from returning into the game. If anything that shows me that rf1 business model was and is superior compared to rf2.

You get the online block with DLC as well to an extent (at least with Assetto Corsa). In other words, if you try to join a server with DLC content you can't unless you own that piece of content (even if you have the track but someone drives with a DLC car). So for example lots of servers are now running Nordschleife, you'd be blocked out of all unless you own DLC #1, etc. As they release about one DLC per year you end up paying about the same as for rF2 multiplayer accesss if you want to enjoy the full product. Just different payment model.

I think ac manages their dlc really badly. I don't think ac is any kind of example how to do dlcs. I think they are doing many mistakes as well and the issue you described is definitely one of them. Getting ac for online playing is really bad deal unless one is willing to buy all the dlc as well. To their credit they do offer the game+all dlc at good discounted price so they are not that bad.

But trying to play ac without any dlc is pretty **** experience I agree with you there 100%.

 

[Emery]

Where is this stuff? It's 2015 and they haven't even been able to deliver the content that they teased us in 2011... That's how they have dropped the ball

From that image, only the two Panoz & the Ford Maverick have not been released. On the other hand, we have stockcars and an extra kart and two experimental models (quads and RC cars) and Cobra and Panoz AIV, plus a 50% increase in ISI tracks. And the third party affiliate cars: Palatov, Corvette street car, and Honda NSX.

So crying over the loss of the two Panoz and the Ford Maverick is silly (OK, yes, I'd like those two Panoz, but the Ford Maverick?!?).

 

[JeffL]

oesn't seem to make any sense then to add yearly fees. If that part of the revenue stream is already small then making it smaller doesn't really help.

How do you know? Statistics please.

Dunno. To me the yearly fee is a cash grab.

In regards to and compared to what?

So they fight piracy by limiting the product usability of their paying customers?

Piracy is a problem, what is your solution?
How do you fight it without putting in some restrictions. It's a global problem and you chastise a company that puts a 12$ solution that satisfies its bottom line.

If anything that shows me that rf1 business model was and is superior compared to rf2.

See above

Please tell us what you think is a good model, other than

Plenty of games have managed to have continued development without DLCs just by selling copies of their game

We are talking racing sims so lets stick to that.

 

[MarcG]

I remember it too. I also remember that progress has been slow. The online numbers are low, the number of mods are low. Where is the content?

This was released in 2011:
http://www.virtualr.net/rfactor-2-car-model-renders
Where is this stuff? It's 2015 and they haven't even been able to deliver the content that they teased us in 2011... That's how they have dropped the ball. In 4 years or whatever they haven't even been able to deliver all those 18 cars. Let's see how many cars the competitors have pushed out in much shorter time frames...

Where is the content? seriously?

Currently:
http://rfactor.net/web/rf2/cars/
I count 20+ right there

Things change in game development, licenses expire or cancel, new licensees come forward, priorities change, perfect example is iRacing were never going to do a Dynamic Track.....but now they have!

Again ISI are a small company who don't feel the need to hire 10s of people to whack content out every other week. If that means "slow progress" to you then fair enough, your expectations of them are too high and you need to lower them.

 

[JeffL]

BTW everybody rf2 has extended their sale until friday due to an overwhelming response. Tell your buddies.

 

[ouvert]

4
I count 20+ right there

yep .. what would I like to see is to have more than 1 car from different classes ... yes we have GT1, GT2, GT3, GT4, F1, F3.5, Indy, Historic Openwheeler, etc .. which is cool .. yet racing with grid full of exactly same cars is half of the fun .. that is demo of different classes .. and I know - mods but it is hard to find trusty one .. even highly praised ones are not there ..

 

[Gijs van Elderen]

and I know - mods but it is hard to find trusty one .. even highly praised ones are not there ..

Just ask...

If you want multi-class GTE cars...

 

[ouvert]

yep I know about that one (waiting for rF2 go live on steam as reason to reinstall) .. have to try it, price is fair for their efford, opinions vary on physics and eventhough I understand the reason I`m not fan of driving Darche vs Venom
Based on my previous experiences I don`t trust mods easily ..People says Fia GT3 by Petra or SandroX for GTR Evo is good .. it is bad, Flat 6 for SCE is good .. it not really good .. but this one seems to worth the while ... still doesn`t change the original content issue

 

[Ghoults]

In regards to and compared to what?

Yearly fee is a money grab in relation to every other online sim.

Piracy is a problem, what is your solution?
How do you fight it without putting in some restrictions. It's a global problem and you chastise a company that puts a 12$ solution that satisfies its bottom line.

That 12$ doesn't solve any piracy issues. The online check does and lfs for example manages to do it without any yearly fees.

As for piracy gog.com is competing with steam by not having drm. More restrictions for paid users is not the only way to fight piracy.

See above

Please tell us what you think is a good model, other than

We are talking racing sims so lets stick to that.

Rf2 or racing sims don't exist in vacuum. I'll get my examples where I find them.

What is a good model for rf2? No yearly fees for online access. That's what is good for rf2. That's how they will instantly double their online players amount. Doing that could even encourage modders to jump from ac to rf2 when there are people who actually play the game. Personally I might even make my jaguar mod from ac to rf2. I'd be happy to support rf2 if it stopped this yearly fee nonsense. It's not really that I'm promising I would do it or holding my mods hostage (lol) but if there are positives incentives then there's one for me personally.

BTW everybody rf2 has extended their sale until friday due to an overwhelming response. Tell your buddies.

Proves my point that discounts are not just profitable but bring life to rf2.

From that image, only the two Panoz & the Ford Maverick have not been released. On the other hand, we have stockcars and an extra kart and two experimental models (quads and RC cars) and Cobra and Panoz AIV, plus a 50% increase in ISI tracks. And the third party affiliate cars: Palatov, Corvette street car, and Honda NSX.

So crying over the loss of the two Panoz and the Ford Maverick is silly (OK, yes, I'd like those two Panoz, but the Ford Maverick?!?).

Well I'm a big sucker for historic tin tops. Out of all those cars it is the only one that really interests me.

And it's not silly!

 

[Gijs van Elderen]

Yearly fee is a money grab in relation to every other online sim.

You're obviously unaware of the yearly fee of Iracing.

 

[MarcG]

Some people just don't "get it"....$12 a year...a money grab......what?!

 

[John-Eric Saxén]

What is a good model for rf2? No yearly fees for online access. That's what is good for rf2. That's how they will instantly double their online players amount. Doing that could even encourage modders to jump from ac to rf2 when there are people who actually play the game. Personally I might even make my jaguar mod from ac to rf2. I'd be happy to support rf2 if it stopped this yearly fee nonsense. It's not really that I'm promising I would do it or holding my mods hostage (lol) but if there are positives incentives then there's one for me personally.

Your suggestion would surely help online player amount, but how would that be a good financial model? AFAIK ISI are planning to release updates and content to rF2 for years to come. With a single payment policy they would run out of funding very soon, that's why rF1 stopped receiving updates after 2 or 3 years. Alternatively they could only offer the LIFETIME option, but the high price woiuld probably scare new users away. I'm pretty sure ISI did consult some financial expert for this payment model they made. I have no problems with it whatsoever, I just wish they put more effort to the online interface and made scheduled events etc easier to find.

 

[JeffL]

That's how they will instantly double

Proof of that or precedents

Lfs charges you for cars and tracks. Extra

Proves my point that discounts are not just profitable but bring life to rf2.

Proof , statistics, anything?

You just make stuff up, backed up by opinions and anecdotes trying to prove your point, you still haven't givin any evidence that rf2 is doing this wrong other than you don't like it.

 

[Ghoults]

You're obviously unaware of the yearly fee of Iracing.

So you are now comparing rf2 to racing's business model?

Proof of that or precedents

Proof of what? It was my estimation that would happen. My opinion. Not a fact. Feel free to quote this out of context...

Since you seem to be ignoring all what I say let me ask you the same questions. Maybe I'll see the light...
1. How do you fight piracy without putting in some restrictions? Do you think restrictions are the only way. Or the best way?
2. When discussing about rf2 business model why do the other games need to be racing sims that we are comparing rf2 with?
3. Do you think rf2 has maximised its potential? Why?
4. Do you think the yearly online fee has helped rf2 to become better sim? Why?

If my opinion is just anecdotes and "stuff I just made up" then let's hear the story from the side who seems to have opposing view of the whole thing. That is you don't just call me names and run away.

Lfs charges you for cars and tracks. Extra

LFS is sold in two stages S1. Or S1+S2. That's their unique business model. It is not some kind of holy grail (can we at least agree things are mostly grey - not black or white? It is not either this or that, it can be little bit of this and little bit of that and little bit of something else..) of business models.

But what it does well is online authentication. There are many pluses for doing that. One is to prevent piracy but other is to have usernames which can be tied to a account. So if you ban someone they will stay banned no matter how many times they reinstall the game, change their ip address or edit some funky config files. LFS does lots of stuff online without yearly fees although they have monetized some aspects very nicely as well.

Proof , statistics, anything?

I just trusted what you said about the sales. If you want proof ask yourself what you meant. My impression is that the sale has been a success. Discounts make money. Discounts bring in more people. Are you disagreeing with that observation? Because that's all what I really said.

You just make stuff up, backed up by opinions and anecdotes trying to prove your point, you still haven't givin any evidence that rf2 is doing this wrong other than you don't like it.

You are just misunderstanding me on purpose. It is my opinion all along. Not a fact. I've never said what I think is a fact. It goes like this: "In my opinion *insert here all the stuff I'm posting*". I've also said it at least once but maybe I should start repeating this in every post:

Who knows. Maybe it is all working splendidly for rf2 as it is. Personally I doubt it but like everyone in this thread I don't know anything as to whether rf2 has been financially positive for isi or not.

It is also kinda sad I'm being persecuted for anecdotes when there are couple of guys nitpicking every sentence I write just so they can take one sentence and say something like "this guy hasn't heard about iracing" despite me saying few post above that I had spend hundreds of dollars on it...

onwards:

Your suggestion would surely help online player amount, but how would that be a good financial model? AFAIK ISI are planning to release updates and content to rF2 for years to come. With a single payment policy...

I'm not advocating for single payment policy. I just want the yearly fee for online access to go away because in my opinion it is a bad thing for rf2:

- it acts as a paywall and prevents people from returning into rf2 after break. If you need to pay for something every other game (that is not subscription based!) is offering for free chances are people won't get back into rf2.

- it scares away new customers. Yearly fee for something as essential as online access is something you should expect from ubisoft or ea imho. I'm not the only one who has negative opinion about it.

- when there are less people playing rf2 there are less races going, less talk about the game which means less sales. To keep the game selling you want to incentivize people to keep playing and coming back. Not prevent them from doing so.

- less players means less mods, less leagues. This means less people to add value to rf2. It is a modding platform after all and the content is supposed to come from modders, right? The less people there are the less modding there is. Mods add value to sims. Rf1 sold a lot of copies because of the various good mods. People even bought f1 2000 back in the day to play the gt racing mod. Or gtr2 and gtl just to play some of the mods. What mods are out there to make people want to buy rf2? Last time I checked mods were migrating to other platforms because of how unpopular rf2 seems to be.

- overall it is my opinion that yearly fee just for online access doesn't make money for isi. It causes them to sell less units which lowers their profits. It is a sort of illusion. If you raise the price you make more money, right? No. You lose some sales due to higher price (generally). If your price was too low price increase may work. But if your original price was already correct any additional fees or price increases will hurt you. Even iracing lowered its prices and has added many ways for users to earn credits and discounts every since it opened its doors. Do you think lowering their prices (discounts) and making themselves more accessible hurt their profits or increased them?

 

[JeffL]

overall it is my opinion that yearly fee just for online access doesn't make money for isi

This is not an opinion it is an assumption. there is a huge difference

I'm done, you just keep twisting things to fit your point of view. I enjoy a proper debate but changing context in the same thread, lol, you should be a politician.

 

[Frederic Schornstein]

Oh man this discussion...
It is basically very simple first off you try the demo which no other "next gen sim" offers and would have saved me more than 70€ on pCars and AC together.

Once you tried the demo you think "Am I an offline or online racer?". If you are an offline only racer pay 45$ and be happy to receive completely free updates for the next few year and enjoy good clean AI races. In case you are an online racer check if there are some nice leauges out there, because public racing never really works that well in any sim.
Have you found some leauges you would enjoy for the upcoming years, pay 85$ and enjoy rF2 multiplayer as long as you live.

The only option where you run into issues is when you suddenly realize you would love to have the multiplayer, but still you have saved 40$ due to the cheaper price, so 3 years are the diffrence to lifetime.

The only downside now is that due to steam limitations you dont have 1 year free multiplayer and you cant upgrade to lifetime.

Once you accept that the full rF2 product costs 85$ than it is no issue at all. Of course if you think it is only worth 45$ it's a diffrent story.

You could say that 85$ for the full product is expensive, but not that the pricing model is unfair. I spent 50€ on AC and have not even 40hours on steam. Last season I drove six 6hour races, two 12hour races and one 24hour race all with grids between 30 and 40 cars. Even if I wouldnt have lifetime I would be happy to pay 12$ which is less money than you pay for 10minute drive in a rental kart.

I know diffrent people have diffrent amount of money, but that is the amount of 1.5 pizzas. How can you spent so much time arguing about 1.5 pizzas?!
Public transport to my workplace costs 6€ per day and it is just 20min. I can assure you 1 year rF2 online is better value than 1.5 hours in crowded german public transport....

 

[David O'Reilly]

Lets just leave it at that and agree to disagree.
I dont think I could face another post with about 15 quotes and the same arguments again.

 

[Frederic Schornstein]

Lets just leave it at that and agree to disagree.
I dont think I could face another post with about 15 quotes and the same arguments again.

I agree

 

[xnorb]

There are currently 3 big business models:

1) Selling additional content
Which is usually a problem in racing games as the community gets split up by not having the same content and therefore can't play together online anymore.

2) Subscription system
I don't like it and i don't play games that have that (WoW, iRacing...) especially when the content you need to play the game is still rather expensive (iRacing) but there are millions of people who are completely fine with that.

(3) Crowd funding
Like Reiza's Simracing Bonanza for example did.

Each system has it's advantages and disadvantages, both for players and developer.

You don't like subscription system? Don't play that game.
You don't like DLCs? Don't buy them or ultimatively don't play that game.

Choice is yours, nobody forces you playing a secific game.