RD GT Championship 2016

[Artur Czarnecki]

If its so.....why do it? Regardless what we think about the advantage we have rules, which we either obey or change them, so everyone drives equally

Article 6.1 of the 2016 RaceDepartment League Regulations states that all drivers must maintain at least two wheels within the white lines of the track at all times when under normal control of their car. A lift-off to give back time gained ensures a penalty won't be applied.

 

[Flammenjc]

If its so.....why do it? Regardless what we think about the advantage we have rules, which we either obey or change them, so everyone drives equally

Article 6.1 of the 2016 RaceDepartment League Regulations states that all drivers must maintain at least two wheels within the white lines of the track at all times when under normal control of their car. A lift-off to give back time gained ensures a penalty won't be applied.

I just told you in the previous posts.

They were [quite frankly] embarrassing errors due to the fact I had fps issues the whole race, and THERE in the penultimate corner and the final corner were the worst parts on the track making the turn in very difficult to maintain a consistent approach, which meant often I ended up losing time on the outside on both Rindt and the penultimate corner.

You can see it happened often. But if you watch the fastest laps done in qualifying, practice and the race, you'll see minimal use of the kerbs EVERYWHERE on the track, not just the final two corners.

Turn 1 and 2 weren't laggy at all for me, you could count how many times I went wide there in both corners on one hand as a comparisson of the issues I was having in the final two corners.

If it was gravel there outside, nobody would be bothered if someone was wide there often, because of it's obvious identity of being slower than the asphalt, but because it's asphalt and kerb[even though its programmed to slow you] I think people have it in mind that it's automatically faster than if it was gravel, when it is not necessarily the case.

For further example, running on the kerbs in AC slows you down more than the grass does in gmotor games.

Was 1st place finisher running wide there? He finished well ahead of me, granted I made an extra stop but the gap was bigger than the 40seconds it takes for the extra pit stop. He managed to pull away from me because of the mistakes I was making. Had I not made any mistakes the gap should have remained at around 45 seconds. It's just further proof that it was not faster to run wide there.

I will hazard a guess and suggest that I was the only one of the top five to be running wide there sometimes but if you watch my race you'll notice that it's at random when I run wide there, which exonerates me from any "tactical" planning of these manouvres or else I would be doing it every lap wouldn't I? I tried my best to stay within the lines there given the fps spikes I was having. And either way, I'm telling you, it isn't faster when you're already at the limit of what the car can do. I did 300 laps there before the race and never once thought it 1) was faster or 2) that I would use it as an advantage if it was faster during a race. Not my style, not least when it's against the rules.

I know you weren't accusing me, but I'm just being honest, for transparency and understanding of this particular cutting situation. I have nothing to hide.

 

[Flammenjc]

Infact this from the rules "A lift-off to give back time gained ensures a penalty won't be applied" suggests that slowing down to a speed lower than that of a normal lap will excuse you from any penalty. So in that case nobody should be penalized for these cuts, as the kerb slows you down automatically beyond that of a normal lap.

 

[Rami]

This discussion is kind of useless. If it is in the rules, it is forbidden and therefore penalized. Regardless if it gives you advantage or not.
Besides, in this track you gain easily nearly half a sec per lap with just slight cuts on entry and exit. Mostly because you don't have to worry about the white lines...

 

[Artur Czarnecki]

Jake it looks like you dont even know what you're saying. The screen above is from your best lap in qual. Also the asphalt out there is grippy like a normal one. It doesnt slow you at all. I was expecting different reaction from you. I agree further discussion is useless.

 

[Flammenjc]

This discussion is kind of useless. If it is in the rules, it is forbidden and therefore penalized. Regardless if it gives you advantage or not.
Besides, in this track you gain easily nearly half a sec per lap with just slight cuts on entry and exit. Mostly because you don't have to worry about the white lines...

Funny, cos the WR lap there 1:27 doesn't use any cutting.

And I found a rival very close to our pole time just by searching youtube.

Oh look, faster than most of all of our q times and didn't cut once a single time.

 

[Rami]

Funny, cos the WR lap there 1:27 doesn't use any cutting.

That laptime does not need cuts
And on one lap yes, but keep it between the lines for hour and a half it does slow you down...

 

[TobiasR]

Honestly, it's pretty crystal clear in the rules. Don't go over the white lines or expect a penalty. We haven't clamped down too harshly in the past in GTC because it was not abused by any of the drivers, at least to our knowledge. After all this discussion, we will have to put a more detailed review of cuts in place again, something that we organizers really dread but it's becoming a necessary evil again after all the discussion (rightfully I might add)

And one other thing. Lag is no excuse for cutting, sorry to say Jake. It's your job to sort it out, not that of the organizer...
Also, WRs on RSR are pretty meaningless, as we never race under the same conditions.

 

[Robert Wiesenmüller]

I hope you find a sensible solution on how to apply the cutting penalties, and not just slap 10 seconds for 3 cuts, 20 for 6 or something like that. Cause that means that the whole racing action and fighting for position can be considered useless, and the race is just a big time trial.

I know for myself that I cut the track in the race a few times and I face a penalty in this case.
Does it make you faster in terms of the ultimate best time? Don't think so. But once you have slightly overshot the braking, it will make you faster when you just open up the steering and brakes and run a wide line, than going really slow. So I can understand the complaints. Just a friendly reminder for all drivers who complain now, also look at your own driving so you don't look like hypocrites when the penalties come out

 

[Artur Czarnecki]

Yeah...sorry Tobias for bringing it up. I know it is shitty more work for you I just couldn't say nothing
Robert even if I get a penalty I wouldn't mind at all. It would mean, I shouldn't be on achieved position . Maybe Ill get one

 

[Flammenjc]

And one other thing. Lag is no excuse for cutting, sorry to say Jake. It's your job to sort it out, not that of the organizer...

Well nowhere did I say or expect I should be exonerated from a cutting penalty. I am just opening the discussion for people, since blatantly using the kerbs and going over them is slower than staying away from them entirely. That much is factual. And that, initially is what the discussion was about.

And the reason to discuss it, is to open a dialogue about maybe handling cuts in AC in a different way, since there is already an inherent time penalty and that system is hard coded into the game afaik and can't be removed as a mod or such.

In the rules it says a lift is sufficient to avoid a penalty as I mentioned before, presumably so you negate the gain used from the cut by lifting, and avoid a penalty, but AC does this slow down to you automatically. If you use a exit kerb entirely you WILL be slower for the ENTIRE straight.

 

[Matheus Machado]

since blatantly using the kerbs and going over them is slower than staying away from them entirely.

It is also factual that extending the track area makes it easier to keep the car under control, no matter what pace is being driven.
That is my last post regarding what should be considered a cut what shouldn't. The rules say keep at least two wheels in the white lines (white lines included). We will see how many cuts there was and apply penalties accordingly.

 

[Flammenjc]

That laptime does not need cuts
And on one lap yes, but keep it between the lines for hour and a half it does slow you down...

Are you implying that when you and an opponents tyres are worn you gain more relative to opponent that isn't doing it? [In relation to running wide]

 

[Rami]

Are you implying that when you and an opponents tyres are worn you gain more relative to opponent that isn't doing it? [In relation to running wide]

Worn or new tyres, you gain time by not having to take care you stay within the white lines. I think you have enough experience to have figured this out.

Now I'm out of this discussion. May the penalties fall exponentially by our Gods and Saviours...

 

[Flammenjc]

Worn or new tyres, you gain time by not having to take care you stay within the white lines. I think you have enough experience to have figured this out.

Well I've just shown you a lap faster than what I and almost everyone else did during qualifying without any cuts in it and there are even faster ones than that with no cuts on all manner of weather conditions better AND worse than what we had. I did over 200laps just for this race, probably more like 500-700 laps in total just on Red Bull Ring during my time in AC.

I couldn't say in a court of law that it's faster because all evidence suggests otherwise, but then, I don't actively try and seek out these unfair advantages in my spare time.

 

[Akis]

@Flammenjc well if you don't get any advantage by going wide, next time try to keep the car inside the lines at all times and see what happens and how it affects your driving

Trying to keep 2 tyres in at every corner surely affects my laptimes in a negative way, and although I'm actively trying to do that, I'm sure I went wide a lot of times during the last race.

 

[Flammenjc]

@Flammenjc well if you don't get any advantage by going wide, next time try to keep the car inside the lines at all times and see what happens and how it affects your driving

Won't be a problem if I can boost my fps during a full grid. I'll test if I have the same issues offline with a full grid but if they persist then I won't race more with AC online since when it lags it's impossible to be in control fully. I didn't know how my rig would perform and it was incredibly difficult not to crash or wreck others so I don't want that to happen again.

 

[Tomi]

Since AC definitely has a programmed "slow down" in the kerbs, the majority of circuits bear no advantage at ALL to use or abuse them

This is so not true. You definitely need to use kerbs at almost every single track to get a fast lap time, there's no question about it. There is a huge different in lap time if you don't use it.

And yes, kerbs have less grip than tarmac but it won't slow you down in any way. Run of areas beyond those kerbs are different thing, those will slow you down very much.

 

[Flammenjc]

This is so not true. You definitely need to use kerbs at almost every single track to get a fast lap time, there's no question about it. There is a huge different in lap time if you don't use it.

And yes, kerbs have less grip than tarmac but it won't slow you down in any way. Run of areas beyond those kerbs are different thing, those will slow you down very much.

I'm not talking about 2 wheels on the kerb, I'm talking about all 4, it's not normally possible in most tracks to put 4 wheels on the exit kerb and gain any time coming out. 2 wheels isn't abuse of the kerb, it's just normal use. What I'm referring to is 4 wheels or two wheels, or from the outside-in.

Stare at the relative when you exit a corner and use alot of kerb, you can see plainly it's not faster. On a hot lap if you are equal to a pb, start driving on the kerbs on corner exits to test it and you'll find that it slows you, you'll see your relative sink into the red faster than the Titanic.

Take Imola as an example, a few corners there have huge run off, but 9/10 times you only lose exit speed as soon as you drop a single wheel on it.

The level of drag from the kerbs is so huge that if you use the kerb when braking, you can brake significantly later than normal. The fast drivers know this, because they all do it. So to hear it from FinnTeam drivers is strange because you know how to drive and you should know the difference between kerb and asphalt in this game is a BIG difference. But maybe did you know that and are just ganging up on me in and attempt to make me look like an idiot or troll me?

To put it in perspective, normally the kerbs in reality are a painted, concrete surface that are slicker than the asphalt and yield less grip, so they would they not slow you down when you touch them other than the level of serration. Which proves it's an anti cut method by Kunos themselves.

Someone really should make a straight track with two lanes, and one totally made from kerbs. You'll see the difference is alot bigger than what is commonly thought. In terms of grip values, nothing can be gained from driving on the kerbs other than mid corner rotation and deceleration, but depending on the angle of the corner and the position of the kerbs in relation to the apex, potentially the line can be made shallower with kerbs.

 

[Matheus Machado]

This is so not true. You definitely need to use kerbs at almost every single track to get a fast lap time, there's no question about it. There is a huge different in lap time if you don't use it.

Even though it might be faster to use the kerbs amd off track areas with the drag (which happens in most of the cases), there is a drag value in the surfaces data of AC which slows the cars down considerably, a little less when it comes to kerbs, but still can be noticeable. There's a video I made (very poor looking at it now) when I reported the issue to Kunos when it appeared on V1.4 IIRC.

You can see the car can keep itself at 237, when I drop 4 wheels off track it instantly drops to 234 and it increases again when I go back on track.

It is very noticeable at the outside of Stowe and entry of Blachimont as well.

Not taking a stand on what happens on Red Bull Ring for now, just showing up how the game physics works with off track surfaces.