AC Race #1 FAT-ALFIE's Championship@Thomson, Wednesday 18th August 2021

[JamKart22]

Yep... When the audi bottoms out, it starts to swim!

About the 1-point contact model:
Basically the full tyre physics come down to a little patch in the middle of the tyre. I don't have full knowledge about how it really works but basically if that one contact point has no contact to the tarmac anymore, it slips. Grip to 0 afaik.
So you have the surfaces.ini where all the different surfaces of each track are specified.
Grass with a lower grip multiplier, tarmac with 1.0 as multiplier.
The contact point can only be on one surface at a time.
Which also means that when it's bouncing over a kerb, it goes into full binary grip mode
Mostly it's not an issue but acc had the same model but different 3D kerbs and when you Google "acc kerb of death", you'll see that cars just insta-spun when the tyre was too long on the air.

They patched/updated a 5-point model into it a few months (or years?) ago and now you have, in example:
One point in the air, one on the kerb, one on the tarmac, 2 on the grass.
The average grip is calculated or some other fancy algorithm and the tyre maintains grip instead of just making your car a 3-wheeler for short moments.

With this 5 point model, acc would probably have Ernie a bit more grip and he might have saved it. But with only one contact point.. No chance!

As a (now retired) software developer I find this stuff fascinating. More details than you need can be found in this article by the developers...

The 5 point tyre model for ACC

This is too big not to write a few words about. Or better said, I _hope_ it is as big as it sounds :). From the get go, I should say that I'm surprised...

assettocorsamods.net

 

[Interslice]

Yep... When the audi bottoms out, it starts to swim!

About the 1-point contact model:
Basically the full tyre physics come down to a little patch in the middle of the tyre. I don't have full knowledge about how it really works but basically if that one contact point has no contact to the tarmac anymore, it slips. Grip to 0 afaik.
So you have the surfaces.ini where all the different surfaces of each track are specified.
Grass with a lower grip multiplier, tarmac with 1.0 as multiplier.
The contact point can only be on one surface at a time.
Which also means that when it's bouncing over a kerb, it goes into full binary grip mode
Mostly it's not an issue but acc had the same model but different 3D kerbs and when you Google "acc kerb of death", you'll see that cars just insta-spun when the tyre was too long on the air.

They patched/updated a 5-point model into it a few months (or years?) ago and now you have, in example:
One point in the air, one on the kerb, one on the tarmac, 2 on the grass.
The average grip is calculated or some other fancy algorithm and the tyre maintains grip instead of just making your car a 3-wheeler for short moments.

With this 5 point model, acc would probably have Ernie a bit more grip and he might have saved it. But with only one contact point.. No chance!

Interesting! I thought you meant the under floor had a single contact point!

The fear of kerbs AC has developed in me over the last year make a bit more sense!

 

[RasmusP]

As a (now retired) software developer I find this stuff fascinating. More details than you need can be found in this article by the developers...

The 5 point tyre model for ACC

This is too big not to write a few words about. Or better said, I _hope_ it is as big as it sounds :). From the get go, I should say that I'm surprised...

assettocorsamods.net

Yep! One of the articles I've read about this and where my knowledge comes from. Also watched part of the Aris videos where he talks about it.

Interesting! I thought you meant the under floor had a single contact point!

The fear of kerbs AC has developed in me over the last year make a bit more sense!

No no, afaik the body is a "solid box". Not sure if it's vector/plane based so has some "infinite" accuracy by detecting geometry cutting the planes or if it's done via a Pixel array and checking all pixels for direct collisions with geometry in each physics frame...

And yes, some kerbs... Ouch

 

[Shed 17]

LOL, I made exactly that mistake in practice!

And me too, glad I found it in practice.

 

[HF2000]

And me too, glad I found it in practice.

Unfortunately in practice it went well for me (must have been closer to the edge of the grass) but in the race it happened to me. Together with shift problems (couldn't find rear) this costed about 12 seconds and a succesful double undercut on Guido and Lars. So 5th instead of 3rd and 5 points less for the championship.

And speaking of points. An S.GP Championship has the feature is that staffmembers can adjust the points awarded.
For example, if someone breaks the (Golden) rules, I can deduct 5 points from his total.
Or if someone makes a mess on round 1, turn 1: deduction of one point.
I don't like doing this when it gets too subjective or leaves too much room for interpretation.
If we're going to use this feature, I want to have clear rules for it.
I'd love to hear ideas from all of you, please!

 

[Dzul]

And speaking of points. An S.GP Championship has the feature is that staffmembers can adjust the points awarded.
For example, if someone breaks the (Golden) rules, I can deduct 5 points from his total.
Or if someone makes a mess on round 1, turn 1: deduction of one point.
I don't like doing this when it gets too subjective or leaves too much room for interpretation.
If we're going to use this feature, I want to have clear rules for it.
I'd love to hear ideas from all of you, please!

We can do like in other sports: first infringement a warning (yellow card) and second infringement a substantial point deduction (5 points)? Or maybe 1 point for the first infringement and 4 for the second infringement? I think most of us here are versed enough with the rules (i.e. Golden rule of waiting after hitting someone) and abide by them so, it won't be much required... hopefully.

 

[RasmusP]

For example, if someone breaks the (Golden) rules, I can deduct 5 points from his total.

Imo this should lead to no points for that race. Or only 1 points if someone had more than 5 for that race.
Normally it would be a 30 day ban. If I can get 2nd by breaking the golden rule, I'd get 18 points. That would give 13 points for the race.
That's one point more than 4th place, whereas waiting would probably result in 7th place or worse.

So the championship style would allow us to not having to hand out 30 day bans, which probably would lead to a higher reporting rate, making the races cleaner

Deciding who f*cked up when and where would be a lot of work to figure out.. Not really for anything apart from golden rule (and maybe if someone cuts the track a LOT, 50% point reduction).

 

[HF2000]

No points at all for breaking the Golden Rule sounds like a good idea and executable, although it might be possible to get negative points by deduction (have to test that yet) So 25 points for breaking the Golden Rule is maybe better. With no points for the race someone who finishes as a backmarker won't loose much while a frontrunner looses a lot but the violation is the same. Doesn't sound fair.

 

[stigs2cousin]

Do you guys really think we have to make this THAT serious??

In my experience the informal and friendly cooperation works quite well, I didn`t even get yelled at for "****ing up royally" last time.

Because to "do it right" we´d have to develop a rule book almost as comprehensive as FIA´s International Sporting Code.
And a court of appeal with drivers from the other group who don´t benefit from the decision (who will be difficult to find)

This time should better be spent with developing other crazy events and in case of a mayor **** up we all throw us to the merci of his Highness and Grace Sir Han!!
Would be interesting to see him squirm when HE is the offending party

So let´s keep it friendly and show the open lobbies how it´s done !!

MFG Carsten

 

[RasmusP]

No points at all for breaking the Golden Rule sounds like a good idea and executable, although it might be possible to get negative points by deduction (have to test that yet) So 25 points for breaking the Golden Rule is maybe better. With no points for the race someone who finishes as a backmarker won't loose much while a frontrunner looses a lot.

That's true.. But currently ALL Audi's do get 1 point and only the last 2 MX-5's get 0 points. So waiting wouldn't make you lose any points either.

But I get your point about this! -25 points would probably mean finishing the championship with negative points though

 

[RasmusP]

Do you guys really think we have to make this THAT serious??

Imo it would make things actually less serious, if you only lose points for a golden rule breach instead of a 30 day / championship ban.
Currently golden rule breaches aren't always reported because the penalty is so severe. But making someone lose his points is a mild but effective way in my opinion

 

[HF2000]

Do you guys really think we have to make this THAT serious??

In my experience the informal and friendly cooperation works quite well, I didn`t even get yelled at for "****ing up royally" last time.

Because to "do it right" we´d have to develop a rule book almost as comprehensive as FIA´s International Sporting Code.
And a court of appeal with drivers from the other group who don´t benefit from the decision (who will be difficult to find)

This time should better be spent with developing other crazy events and in case of a mayor **** up we all throw us to the merci of his Highness and Grace Sir Han!!
Would be interesting to see him squirm when HE is the offending party

So let´s keep it friendly and show the open lobbies how it´s done !!

MFG Carsten

Calm down please, Carsten.

I don't have any immediate plans. I just discovered this feature and I'm asking all of you to join me in thinking about whether and how we should use it.

I'm glad guys like you and Rasmus give me feedback. This is not a one man show for me. But if somehow this feature can help in a gentle way to get better events, we can always try.

And reported Golden Rule violations are always discussed within staff before any punishment is carried out, so no God mode for me there.

 

[stigs2cousin]

Do you guys really think we have to make this THAT serious??

In my experience the informal and friendly cooperation works quite well, I didn`t even get yelled at for "****ing up royally" last time.

Because to "do it right" we´d have to develop a rule book almost as comprehensive as FIA´s International Sporting Code.
And a court of appeal with drivers from the other group who don´t benefit from the decision (who will be difficult to find)

This time should better be spent with developing other crazy events and in case of a mayor **** up we all throw us to the merci of his Highness and Grace Sir Han!!
Would be interesting to see him squirm when HE is the offending party

So let´s keep it friendly and show the open lobbies how it´s done !!

MFG Carsten

New facts have been brought to my intention that make this post obsolet.

Obviously the race was not that friendly ( in parts) after all.

Apologies to Han, I was not ranting, it was meant as a "winking" opinion peace.

Since i´m wide of the mark, please ignore the post above.

MFG Carsten

 

[JamKart22]

Bare in mind that some people might be less inclinded to report a golden rule issue. So someone could get off and someone else could be penalised for the same offence on a different driver.

Not sure what the answer is to that other that watching all incidents in the replay.

 

[HF2000]

Bare in mind that some people might be less inclinded to report a golden rule issue. So someone could get off and someone else could be penalised for the same offence on a different driver.

Not sure what the answer is to that other that watching all incidents in the replay.

Good point, Colin! We rely on reports from others because we don't go through the entire replay looking for incidents and violations. But as Rasmus pointed out, right now Golden Rules violations aren't always reported because the consequences can be serious (exclusion) and we have, I think, a lot of nice guys who don't want to cause that kind of punishment.

But perhaps if the consequences are less severe (losing points), more reports will be made and thus contribute to cleaner events. But that will remain an assumption until we try. And it doesn't have to be 25 points. It could be 10 or 15 with the option to get into a negative range.

And let me be clear on this: I will not use this feature unless a majority of this micro community, as I call this group, agrees with it to give it a try. I'm Dutch, you know: we always have to agree on everything. It's called 'polderen' and can be quite exhausting sometimes.

EDIT: I have also the ability to award extra points afterwards. So there's also an option to transfer points from the violator to the victim of a Golden Rule breach

Regards,
Han (future winner of the Fat Alfie's championship 2021!)

 

[Allan Ramsbottom]

Was fortunate to get some practice in for this race with some great, now M8,s over the last couple of weeks (you know who you are guys).Having done some pretty fast laps times and slightly tweeking my cheeky little MX-5,i had the car nailed.Quali in first,but Patrick was quick so was Tim so come the race i was slightly nervous,raced with Patrick before and its been close lol..Off to a good start then it went crazy for the Audis,with @Kek700 getting bummed..er i meant bumped a few times..Scraped thru lukily as did Patrick and a few others so now the race was on..Tyres warmed pretty quickly,full tank of Juice the race was ON!!Led from the start and after a few laps started pulling away from Patrick..Left my Pit Stop till about 12 mins to go,not sure in how it would work out,but came out still in the lead so my tactic worked..Phew..Shame Tim got a disco or whatever it was,its a real %&$£% when it happens...Lets see what happens on the next 1 at the championship....

 

[Dzul]

The idea of taking points from the one who does a hit-and-run (breaking the golden rule) and giving them to the one on the receiving end sounds kinda' fair to me. Proof beyond doubt given of course. It's just an idea.

One thing previously said got me thinking, given the nature of both cars, the last Mazdas will always end up without points. Will we keep a single points-table for now or will there be a points-table per class, like in LeMans? Didn't think about it until now.

BTW, don't forget it's the 24hrs this weekend!

 

[RasmusP]

One thing previously said got me thinking, given the nature of both cars, the last Mazdas will always end up without points. Will we keep a single points-table for now or will there be a points-table per class, like in LeMans? Didn't think about it until now.

Errrr for me the standings look like Neil and Allan both have 25 points so it's already per class, isn't it?

The last Mazda's not getting points is because there are more Mazda's.
If we had a few more Audis, there would be pointless Audi's too.

Swapping points for golden rule breaches sounds fun but I'm not sure that would be fair either
If you're a mid pack driver who gets spun by the then race winner, you would get a lot more points than your pace would give you.

I'd say just making it zero points for that race and if you have none, -5 or something like that. Not -25....

 

[Kek700]

I have this 24 hrs tried to rationalise who’s fault is it scenario.
I will take my hectic last lap battle with Michael, he battled me for every inch of the road for two laps, squeezing me, shutting down any space I went for, in the end I really had to force the last lap, far more than I ever would normally.
The point is I gave him a few whacks up the Audi’s rear, nothing intentional, just very very close racing.
If afterwards he had a go, I would have been in no doubt that I was at fault.
The fact that he pulled in front of me leaving me with no alternative but to bump him is in my opinion a reason it happened, not an excuse.
Now, I do not mean diving in front in the braking area, which is a definite no no.
And even if you take the big no no, dive bombing, the dive bomber is the one that hits the other person, it is almost an inevitable out come.
If you hit someone and the other person has vacant space in front of him then it is the person that hits the others fault.
Now this does not mean anything other than we can all do this, sometime it is just bad luck, it can easily happen to any of us, very very rarely have I come across a done on purpose bump.

When I have done this it certainly does not make me feel very good, even if I come out best, it ruins the race for me, and the other person is not going to be ecstatically happy either.

Very much like Hamilton and Verstappen in the end Hamilton hit Verstappen,
Verstappen had vacant space, Hamilton had space to his right and Verstappen to his left.

Or is that very unfortunate situation we’re we automatically try to justify our particular situation in our favour. I really struggle with that to, trying to not fall into that phycological trap.

 

[Douglas Aird]

Han, are you sure you want to spend your time post race adjudicating incidents?