My thoughts about the forum and the community

[BhZ]

Lately i've been particularly active on this forum and i took part to many discussions. One in particular got my attention. It was about the fact that fast drivers don't help rookies during practice. I think it's true, but at the same time i think many rookies don't even ask. I raced a lot recently on RD and i think i remember just one question in something like 8 races: "what wings are you guys running?". That was the only question that someone asked during practice. This got me thinking about the community and the forum and i noticed that the majority of the posts here on RD are about peripheral issues, graphical issues, news, random stuff. Now, in a simracing forum i'd expect more questions about cars, tracks, driving tecnique...Asking question in a 30 minutes practice just before the race won't make you a better driver for the simple reason that if you are not already a great driver, 30 minutes are barely enough to stay on track and possibly find good braking points. What will make you a better driver is to ask question on the forum, get an answer to it and apply in an offline session what you just learned until it becomes natural.
Everyone is free to do whatever he wants and race every night with a different car in a different track, but my advice is to take at least half of the days you'd race to just choose a car and a track and practice. Push the car, be curious about where is the limit of it. That is the only way to actually improve. Racing every day doesn't give you the time to get confidence with a car or a track, so you will improve, but at a much slower speed and you won't have time to work on the setup, because it's useless to work on the setup if you still have to find the limit of the car.
So my request is as follows: Ask about anything related to a car or track here on the forum, even if it's a stupid question, there are people here ready to help.
I also have a suggestion for the RD staff: In order to improve the quality of racing on RD, it would be cool in my opinion to have nights where instead of racing, you guys set up a server with a car and a track (possibly a combo that will be used in the next RD event) where people can sign up (like in a normal race) and practice for a couple of hours. So you have some sort of "practice event" where people willing to improve can learn more and where hopefully some of the fast guys (which usually practice a lot) will come as well and help.
Just to be sure, since english is not my first language, i want to specify that this is just my opinion and advice to try to improve the quality of driving. Let me know what are your thoughts about it and if you have other ideas that could make this forum a better place.

 

[RasmusP]

One thing that is quite demoralising is when drivers are finishing, congratulating each other for a good race and then leaving. And I still have half a lap to go, so when I finally do finish half the grid has already left..

It was said every now and then in the event threads, that please everyone should wait even for the very last guy! One problem is that AC is breaking the results file if you wait too long after the race. You have about one minute after the winner finishes and after that the sessions ends in the exact moment the last driver crosses the line and the results file gets broken.
But that shouldn't matter that much in a friendly event! We should all wait and pay respect to every driver! I think applauding is okay, you can't hold it back. But wait!!
I came almost last in a few races and I couldn't even see my finishing position. Got 8th, yeah sure... 10 guys already left

Watching faster drivers definitely does help, but only to a certain degree. You can see lines, potential speeds, etc, but you can't really see how the brakes are used to brake so late or how they are released and why..

First: thank you for offering that

And to the quote: well with the pedals-app you actually see every nuance of each pedal and it shows BIG differences between all drivers.
But you got a point, actually driving together and seeing it in real time on the track is something different!

 

[Matuszczak Piotr]

And if someone has ideas: just give the staffs some feedback. We can't see in your heads, even though we are trying to do it

I have one! Install Stracker on the AC servers and provide the generated results
They don't break as easy as AC results, show lap consistency and some more.

And to rookie racers, I agree that You have to ask questions and I believe most of us will at least try to help You out. Remember that You can also ask on the forum after the race, it's good practice to verify Your post race experience with others.

 

[Brandon Wright]

It kind of sucks we haven't and I haven't seen it then, but to get more to ask more, answers need to be provided when people actually do ask. It will just be another black hole of nothingness where newbies feel there is no reason to ask because noone will take the time, regulars not bothering because no questions comes or not worthy of answering. This is a bad circle

Keep in mind that the majority of the racers are normal members who are just there to race and their main focus is to get the best performance out of themselves, not to be a tutor. Usually if someone asks questions people are more than happy to provide answers or assistance, but the questions have to be asked by someone because I doubt many drivers show up with their first priority being to give instructions and advice. So if nobody asks questions then no answers will be given. Ask anyone who races with me, I'm usually pretty quiet and focused on learning the combo, as soon as someone asks a question I'm happy to take a minute and offer help but if nobody asks the question I'll just sit there quiet in my chair driving laps.

One thing that is quite demoralising is when drivers are finishing, congratulating each other for a good race and then leaving. And I still have half a lap to go, so when I finally do finish half the grid has already left. I wish I had made that last up but unfortunately I didn't.
This is on me but it do make me fel unworthy to wait for, those leaving want to go to bed or spend some time with their families, or some other reason I don't know. But why not wait, I showed up in time, stayed in race even though I am hopelessly last without any possibility to gain a position for you?
So, already tired after the race and seeing others leave that quick, yeah well... it doesn't make wonders for me and wanting me to stay asking about things. But as said, thats on me only.

Again, remember that most of the people there are normal people with normal lives and responsibilities and sometimes they can't always stay around to chat. On weeknights I go to bed very early because of work, when the race is over I'm ready to get done and start getting ready for bed so I'm usually out of there pretty quick but it's not because I'm trying to avoid a driver or because I don't want to help with questions, it's because I have responsibilities. I try to hang around at least a few minutes afterwards for a few pleasantries, but I don't feel like I should be looked negatively on for leaving early due to having to get up early for work the next day. But usually several of the other guys hang around for a while and sometimes even open up a new server to do some practice and testing or to just fool around and have fun.

 

[Lars Rystedt]

Keep in mind that the majority of the racers are normal members who are just there to race and their main focus is to get the best performance out of themselves, not to be a tutor. Usually if someone asks questions people are more than happy to provide answers or assistance, but the questions have to be asked by someone because I doubt many drivers show up with their first priority being to give instructions and advice. So if nobody asks questions then no answers will be given. Ask anyone who races with me, I'm usually pretty quiet and focused on learning the combo, as soon as someone asks a question I'm happy to take a minute and offer help but if nobody asks the question I'll just sit there quiet in my chair driving laps.



Again, remember that most of the people there are normal people with normal lives and responsibilities and sometimes they can't always stay around to chat. On weeknights I go to bed very early because of work, when the race is over I'm ready to get done and start getting ready for bed so I'm usually out of there pretty quick but it's not because I'm trying to avoid a driver or because I don't want to help with questions, it's because I have responsibilities. I try to hang around at least a few minutes afterwards for a few pleasantries, but I don't feel like I should be looked negatively on for leaving early due to having to get up early for work the next day. But usually several of the other guys hang around for a while and sometimes even open up a new server to do some practice and testing or to just fool around and have fun.

I too am a normal member, I dont think I am special in any way and I wont enter any further argument about that.
My post before the one you quoted was toward the Rookie race and merely an extension from that. In the Rookie race the rookies, not only me, would have the opportunity to learn and have fun at the same time. And there was some questions from both me and other rookies, and unfortunately not that many was actually answered. Most was left hanging and then forgotten, someone wrote about it on forum and for most part the answer was "watch and learn", not to ask. With that we have a circle of "dont ask, dont tell" culture for which I have no answer how to break.

About the second paragraph, I dont ask you to stay after race to chat with me. I merely wish you to show me the same respect I show you and stay until I finished. Except for Le Mans and Nordschleife I cannot remember any track that takes longer than 2,5 minute, so If I have half a lap to finish I am sure you can atleast wait 1 more minute? For 30 minutes I and others have fought to our way around the track just as you have without giving up or ragequitting because we **** up and do simple mistakes.
Is this such an issue for you that you cannot agree with me on this?

 

[Brandon Wright]

I too am a normal member, I dont think I am special in any way and I wont enter any further argument about that.
My post before the one you quoted was toward the Rookie race and merely an extension from that. In the Rookie race the rookies, not only me, would have the opportunity to learn and have fun at the same time. And there was some questions from both me and other rookies, and unfortunately not that many was actually answered. Most was left hanging and then forgotten, someone wrote about it on forum and for most part the answer was "watch and learn", not to ask. With that we have a circle of "dont ask, dont tell" culture for which I have no answer how to break.

You must have different groups than what we get on the other side of the pond then because our guys are always very helpful and happy to lend assistance. I've never heard anyone say anything close to "be quiet and watch".

About the second paragraph, I dont ask you to stay after race to chat with me. I merely wish you to show me the same respect I show you and stay until I finished. Except for Le Mans and Nordschleife I cannot remember any track that takes longer than 2,5 minute, so If I have half a lap to finish I am sure you can atleast wait 1 more minute? For 30 minutes I and others have fought to our way around the track just as you have without giving up or ragequitting because we **** up and do simple mistakes.
Is this such an issue for you that you cannot agree with me on this?

I guess I just don't see it as an issue or as a matter of respect/disrespect. If somebody has other responsibilities and has to leave before I finish my race it wouldn't bother me in the slightest, I'm just happy they were able to show up for the race and put another car on the grid in the first place. But, we all have different priorities and expectations.

 

[BhZ]

@Brandon Wright While i agree with you, you have also to keep in mind that in the EU server there are many people talking different languages so english is the second language for most of us. English people talk between them and many of us have serious difficulties understanding what they say (mostly because of their speed). Language will always be a problem, which is why i insist on the fact that people should ask here on the forum, where it's easier to understand and be understood.

 

[Brandon Wright]

@Brandon Wright While i agree with you, you have also to keep in mind that in the EU server there are many people talking different languages so english is the second language for most of us. English people talk between them and many of us have serious difficulties understanding what they say (mostly because of their speed). Language will always be a problem, which is why i insist on the fact that people should ask here on the forum, where it's easier to understand and be understood.

Yes, I'm aware that the EU groups seems to be very different than the US group which is why I've mostly withdrawn from this conversation because obviously our experiences don't match up with your guys' experiences. Funny thing though is that most of our group is from outside the US and it's usually the UK and OZ guys who are the most helpful and informative.

 

[Mr Deap]

I added a Q&A in my setup guide. I hope it clear up some misunderstanding.

Mr Deap's setup guide AC v1.14 Q& A
Why PSI is so important?
Uneven PSI on track lead to erratic driving input & slower lap time. It actually worse how to grasp Assetto Corsa physic model. With improper PSI you can't setup the car & balance it either.

Does a setup improve driving skill?
No, but it will improve your lap time on easy car. Will still lack behind, if the player doesn't understand the fixes that have been made.

Does learning to setup your own car improve your driving skill?
Yes, if you know how to exploit the car feature, you have a lead advantage, because it help to grasp the physic model of the game easier & It is the right way to practice.

Do you need to practice to get good times?
Yes, the more you exploit, the better is your lap time.

Driving or setup?
Both, if you can't exploit the physic model, you can't improve your lap time.

Driving skill or exploit?
Exploit

Is exploit cheating?
No, it's within the game physic model.

 

[InsaneOzzie]

Ive found plenty of text over my 18yrs of sim racing to help me understand the "ins and outs" of car setup, I can't understand why many sim racers don't take the time to read and educate themselves on car behavior, my father use to preach the 5 P's, "Prior, Preparation, Prevents, Poor, Performance". I find this applies to Sim racing in a big way, and you can see it in any club or league race, the guys that spent the time preparing are usually the guys at the front.

IMO, before you can begin to setup a car you need to know what the components do, and why they do what they do when under particular circumstances, otherwise your tinkering for the sake of tinkering, with no clear idea of what your trying to achieve. Learning the art of car setup isn't hard, @Georg Siebert produced a "Race Car Setup" guide that was very informative (had a quick search but can't locate it here at RD) Georg's guide gives concise info with detailed images, a must for any rookie wanting to advance his racecraft IMHO. It's a 264Kb PDF so I guess I could pass it on for those who are interested, see the bottom of my post

I agree that many sim racers aren't really interested in learning how to put their own setup together, which is a shame, if they did they might be quick enough to actually compete at the pointy end. We all have our own driving style so the setup I get from @Bobby Pennington or @Allan Ramsbottom probably wouldn't be ideal for me, for starters we have different hardware, we may take different lines, sure I might get a little quicker but what have I achieved to better my knowledge of the car or my own ability as a sim racer. I'm effectively only cheating myself.

I also feel that most sim's base setups, in AC especially, are good for top 10 if you give it some time and prepare by practicing, this in itself stops rookies from learning how to setup a car, why bother when default works good enough.

Here's a personal example: AC, US server, Audi TTcup@ Silverstone1967 this morning, I had no practice at all, but I know the track & car well plus the TT is a great little all round package, I plug in my brands setup do some laps thinking it will suit, couldn't of been further from the truth. I pit, go to default and immediately notice a difference and my 1st timed lap was top 3, yet I'm far from . I put it down to the setup, Ive always been quick in this particular car and I feel very comfortable throwing it around, yet I'm usually around mid pack, depends on grid size of course but my point is the setup was good enough to fight at the front, so maybe the Devs need to take an active roll in promoting the art of setup within their Sims.

As far as the "I race for fun" line goes, I say thats BS, we all have that little ego inside, which has been alluded to prior in this discussion, and I firmly believe that each and every sim racer has the desire to be the quickest, to win a race, plus, were taught to be competitive at school. I came to RD to have fun and meet new friends sure, but the desire to win, to be the fastest is always in the background, it's in my DNA, and I'd be lying if I denied it wasn't there, lurking, waiting to erupt the 1st time I win one.

 

[Lars Rystedt]

Ive found plenty of text over my 18yrs of sim racing to help me understand the "ins and outs" of car setup, I can't understand why many sim racers don't take the time to read and educate themselves on car behavior, my father use to preach the 5 P's, "Prior, Preparation, Prevents, Poor, Performance". I find this applies to Sim racing in a big way, and you can see it in any club or league race, the guys that spent the time preparing are usually the guys at the front.

IMO, before you can begin to setup a car you need to know what the components do, and why they do what they do when under particular circumstances, otherwise your tinkering for the sake of tinkering, with no clear idea of what your trying to achieve. Learning the art of car setup isn't hard, @Georg Siebert produced a "Race Car Setup" guide that was very informative (had a quick search but can't locate it here at RD) Georg's guide gives concise info with detailed images, a must for any rookie wanting to advance his racecraft IMHO. It's a 264Kb PDF so I guess I could pass it on for those who are interested, see the bottom of my post

I agree that many sim racers aren't really interested in learning how to put their own setup together, which is a shame, if they did they might be quick enough to actually compete at the pointy end. We all have our own driving style so the setup I get from @Bobby Pennington or @Allan Ramsbottom probably wouldn't be ideal for me, for starters we have different hardware, we may take different lines, sure I might get a little quicker but what have I achieved to better my knowledge of the car or my own ability as a sim racer. I'm effectively only cheating myself.

I also feel that most sim's base setups, in AC especially, are good for top 10 if you give it some time and prepare by practicing, this in itself stops rookies from learning how to setup a car, why bother when default works good enough.

Here's a personal example: AC, US server, Audi TTcup@ Silverstone1967 this morning, I had no practice at all, but I know the track & car well plus the TT is a great little all round package, I plug in my brands setup do some laps thinking it will suit, couldn't of been further from the truth. I pit, go to default and immediately notice a difference and my 1st timed lap was top 3, yet I'm far from . I put it down to the setup, Ive always been quick in this particular car and I feel very comfortable throwing it around, yet I'm usually around mid pack, depends on grid size of course but my point is the setup was good enough to fight at the front, so maybe the Devs need to take an active roll in promoting the art of setup within their Sims.

As far as the "I race for fun" line goes, I say thats BS, we all have that little ego inside, which has been alluded to prior in this discussion, and I firmly believe that each and every sim racer has the desire to be the quickest, to win a race, plus, were taught to be competitive at school. I came to RD to have fun and meet new friends sure, but the desire to win, to be the fastest is always in the background, it's in my DNA, and I'd be lying if I denied it wasn't there, lurking, waiting to erupt the 1st time I win one.

Why is so many of the fast drivers assuming that everyone is playing (yes playing) with the same intentions as them? Calling the phrase "I race for fun" for bullshit is in itself bullshit, you are making the assumption that each and everyone is having the same mind as you. Sorry to break this for you, not every one do and a lot is trying to race for fun. This does not mean we are not trying.

About your 5 P's, yes that is absolutely needed. In my youth when I actually was competing (not racing) this was absolutely true to me. And If I was to take part in a league yes but in a Club race, this isn't true. I can still race I hope with the others who are so much faster than me and still have fun. And I am not sure how much time they really are spending on setup and practice as they already are very fast.

If it only had come down to will to understand how setup is working, what everything do, reading pdf's, watching you tube instructionals I'd be a wizard by now! But it still is witchcraft and magic for me so "BURN THE WITCH!!!" .... hrmpf.. got carried away there, sorry.
But my point is, it is not so easy for everyone. What come naturally for you does not for me and I have several reasons for it. One is that I never really been interested in engines, cars, and things like this. I have happily given my problem away to someone making a living of fixing troubles in that area.
Second, just speaking for myself please remember that, I have burned out myself working in my field more than once. This has made things written or told to hard to remember and even worse to grasp the understanding. I literally getting an awful headache when trying to read something I do have next to nothing understanding of trying to make it in my head understandable.

Not wanting to flame you so please don't misunderstand me, but I don't believe that putting up things that "must" be learned to compete in Club races will benefit a rookie very much. On the contrary I believe that it would probably scare them away if they cannot be in the top ten with the default setup in AC. Some are fast and some are not, and there is not a mystery in this, but please do not assume we are all here with the same intentions and skills as you.
I believe your post was meant as a friendly push to improve but we are all different, please let us be that. Furthermore, I don't know if your'e in a league but let me know if you are or going too, because I really like to watch the league racing. Knowing names gives so much more than just watch F1 or even Blanc Pain endurance (which I really do enjoy).

 

[Rupe Wilson]

Learning the art of car setup isn't hard, @Georg Siebert produced a "Race Car Setup" guide that was very informative (had a quick search but can't locate it here at RD) Georg's guide gives concise info with detailed images

its in our set up section and yes it very good
http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/assetto-corsa-car-setup-guides.99049/

 

[Jempy]

The day many text lines ( much too many ) will be replaced by a good summary for a good understanding of the car components .... many more drivers will understand, digest and apply the best rules to begin a setup.

One change on a main component has influence on other components .... so you have to learn, understand and digest too much at a time .... maybe perfect for a technical mind ... but not for an amateur one. ( worse if it's not in your own native language ).

Just one thing I never noticed in setup guides for example is ..... in which best order do you have to begin a setup with ??? ( except gearbox, fuel amount and tyre compound choice ).

Once you read the first component explanation and you begin the next one .... you already forgot or misunderstood the previous one.....

In short:
- what a component do .... ( 1 line well written and perfectly summarize + didactic )
- what is the direct influence and side effects on car handling
- a logical order of the main settings to begin with.

Too many text lines are killing the understanding ....

A good collective work between technical experts and didactic and text writing experts should be the best solution .... and surely Simracing remains the best cooperative group to achieve that .... and I assume I'm not wrong about this.

 

[Jempy]

And sometimes worse ... contradictions you're reading from one guide compared to another one !
Sim physics error ? .... Guide error ? .... you finally don't know which one to follow.

That's also a second problem .... once you think about it ... you're bored ...and follow your own instinct, good or bad ?...I don't know but finally if the car's handling is suiting you afterwards, that's already one good thing for a race .... but mainly worse for good laptimes.

 

[Brandon Wright]

The day many text lines ( much too many ) will be replaced by a good summary for a good understanding of the car components .... many more drivers will understand, digest and apply the best rules to begin a setup.

One change on a main component has influence on other components .... so you have to learn, understand and digest too much at a time .... maybe perfect for a technical mind ... but not for an amateur one. ( worse if it's not in your own native language ).

Just one thing I never noticed in setup guides for example is ..... in which best order do you have to begin a setup with ??? ( except gearbox, fuel amount and tyre compound choice ).

Once you read the first component explanation and you begin the next one .... you already forgot or misunderstood the previous one.....

In short:
- what a component do .... ( 1 line well written and perfectly summarize + didactic )
- what is the direct influence and side effects on car handling
- a logical order of the main settings to begin with.

Too many text lines are killing the understanding ....

A good collective work between technical experts and didactic and text writing experts should be the best solution .... and surely Simracing remains the best cooperative group to achieve that .... and I assume I'm not wrong about this.

The problem I've had with setup guides is translating them into the game. For example, if I'm trying to cure a problem with the car and it suggests I need to stiffen the front suspension, I then go to the setup screen in AC and it's a bunch of terms not used in the setup guide and I can't for the life of me figure out what I need to adjust to stiffen the front suspension, and the little help text in the setup menu often just makes things more confusing or is even contradictory (for example, it says to increase negative camber you want a positive value in the setup screen. Wut). It's a nightmare and I gave up on it long ago.

Why is so many of the fast drivers assuming that everyone is playing (yes playing) with the same intentions as them? Calling the phrase "I race for fun" for bullshit is in itself bullshit, you are making the assumption that each and everyone is having the same mind as you. Sorry to break this for you, not every one do and a lot is trying to race for fun. This does not mean we are not trying.

About your 5 P's, yes that is absolutely needed. In my youth when I actually was competing (not racing) this was absolutely true to me. And If I was to take part in a league yes but in a Club race, this isn't true. I can still race I hope with the others who are so much faster than me and still have fun. And I am not sure how much time they really are spending on setup and practice as they already are very fast.

You're right. After spending close to a decade as a perpetual mid-packer I gave up on winning a long time ago and just join for the fun of it and the banter with friends, and even though I often find myself near the front now (depending on the group) winning is rarely my highest priority. As long as I have someone to battle with I'm happy. I almost always run the default setup too and most times have no trouble keeping up with the fast guys, last night I was only a half second off pole using the default setup in the TT Cup and that was with only 20 minutes of practice.

 

[BhZ]

And sometimes worse ... contradictions you're reading from one guide compared to another one !
Sim physics error ? .... Guide error ? .... you finally don't know which one to follow.

That's also a second problem .... once you think about it ... you're bored ...and follow your own instinct, good or bad ?...I don't know but finally if the car's handling is suiting you afterwards, that's already one good thing for a race .... but mainly worse for good laptimes.

This is the difference between those who goes a little faster and those who gave up. English is not my first language and now it's been 3 years since i started working on the setup of a car. Those guides are EXTREMELY short, they miss a lot of information and asking to make one with even less is simply crazy. When i started, most of my changes were wrong and i couldn't understand the difference between one setting and another, which from what i understand, is exactly your current position. You have to be patient and dont expect to become a faster driver in a week. After 3 years there is still a lot of stuff i don't understand and it's normal, otherwise we all would be race engineers.

 

[Jempy]

As long as I have someone to battle with I'm happy.

That's how I see things too, Brandon .... you're not the fastest one ... you're not the only one, you're a back marker ..... you're not alone.

Simracing is not only competition ... it's also pleasure.
To be quick .... It's not only a question of setup, but also race hardware, PC hardware, 1 or 3 screens, driver's quality etc .... but surely finally the best adaptation to one's own config.
With 1 screen, a stock G27 wheel and pedals and a good but not excessive PC .... some drivers are already aliens !
But as long as there's pleasure, you go on driving. ... always hoping to finally find the good .... receipt

 

[Jempy]

Those guides are EXTREMELY short, they miss a lot of information and asking to make one with even less is simply crazy.

Not fully crazy as sometimes you wish to cure what you're feeling as one of the main problem for your fast driving ... and you finally touch what you think is the best setting to change ... and finally you're in the wrong direction .... while slightly changing another setting had a side effect correcting what you wished to solve.

But once the bad direction chosen ... too bad, it's mostly too late ... and you don't know any longer how to correct the whole thing.

Main effect + side effect of a setting .... for each component or problem ... it should be the idea maybe ? .... a bit as one guide I found long ago ( called something like the "Matrix" I think ).

 

[BhZ]

Not fully crazy as sometimes you wish to cure what you're feeling as one of the main problem for your fast driving ... and you finally touch what you think is the best setting to change ... and finally you're in the wrong direction .... while slightly changing another setting had a side effect correcting what you wished to solve.

But once the bad direction chosen ... too bad, it's mostly too late ... and you don't know any longer how to correct the whole thing.

Main effect + side effect of a setting .... for each component or problem ... it should be the idea maybe ? .... a bit as one guide I found long ago ( called something like the "Matrix" I think ).

But things are way more complicated than that. Different cars have different handling and changing springs on a formula car is different than changing them on a classic car.

 

[Kek700]

There is a distinct difference between two setup criteria.
Making the car faster and making the driver faster.
My personal problem is knowing that a realistic real world adjustment is going to
be seen by that particular cars software physics.
Often it just does not correlate, and i just do not have the enthusiasm to sort
all the combinations out or more importantly the consistancy of my driving.
It would be nice to have a very overworked Kunos
give us a real world guide to which adjustments are proportional to a particular
Parameter and the ones that are reduced due to calculating complexities.

Or is all of the above

 

[Kek700]

Just in case , I meant "my" article not any of the previously written.