AC Multiclass @ Sveg Raceway - Sun 9th Feb 2020

[Medilloni]

For the race it was my sole purpose to annoy @Medilloni

Mission accomplished Han

I just couldn't keep it on the road, 4 spins, lots of 'wall of death' moments at turns 5 and 10... f**k it, I'm getting some of this for the next race

 

[pattikins]

Thanks for putting on tonight's race @JoelK Joel, really appreciate it And congrats to the podium guys! @pattikins Patrick, you're times were amazing tonight buddy, as was @HF2000 Han's annoying consistency


Thanks Raresh, I take that as a complement, I think, though we need to gang up on Patrick I've no excuses (well I have, but they're crap) for a , race, just couldn't concentrate. Feel like I haven't driven GT3's in ages for some reason.

Thanks, it's the first time I've experienced that kind of a lead, and I suspect that it will be the only time.

You're quite welcome to gang up on me tomorrow, at the back of the field. - a 1930s car with paddle shifters. Very weird.

Joel & John, thanks for putting on the race.

 

[JoelK]

Thanks @JoelK for hosting and all the great tips on how to drive it!

My first shot at LMP1 and while it's a bit of a complicated class with kers/m-ugk, way more setup options, etc, the car itself was enjoyable to drive.

Joel got me off the line and the first tires being ice, I put myself into the wall at T2 and damaged my front wing which added under steer. After that I had to put my head down and recover quickly before Joel came upto speed and became comfortable with the track.

I've never pitted in this car before so I was surprised to find that it's the fuel that takes a lot longer on these cars than tires!

While I didn't make contact with any GT3 class cars, I'm hopeful that I was clean in passing you guys and didn't compromise anyone's race. Apologies if I did.

Yeah, forgot to mention taking 17ltrs takes the same amount of time as the tires.

 

[HF2000]

hi, it was a fun race. And I've ended in front of @Medilloni which is always an achievement )

in the last 4-5 months, I did progress, and I can see it and feel it. But now I feel like I can't go faster. My consistency is good-ish. I don't make any major mistakes, so I might work at something new. Any idea how or what should I do next to get better?

@Raresch Raresch, I'm somewhat in the same situation. I don't seem to make any progress anymore which is a bit frustrating as we can see with others that there's still a lot to gain. Enzo was here yesterday and he did a few laps with the Lambo on my rig (A G27). His driving style is much more agressive. I tend to turn the wheel smoothly into a turn while he does this far more abrupt, causing more oversteer but in a controlled manner with fast steering correction and with as result that he can hit the thrustpedal earlier and therefore achieving a better exit. You have to have a lot of confidence in the car to do that. When I try the same I mostly end off track. But it's also partly rig depending. When Enzo went off track yesterday, he stated that that wouldn't have happened on his rig (Heusinkveld pedals and direct drive steering wheel). Such a rig is a lot of money and I'm not convinced yet that it will give me so much more fun that it will be worth it. So my next steps are to find more confidence and practice to drive more aggressive. That's also the reason I switched from the 911 to the R8. I believe that the 911 and the Lambo are really fast if driven aggressive. But they are also unforgiven. In the last races with the 911 I was frightened for almost every turn. Not good to gain confidence. The R8 lets you correct oversteer to a certain amount where in the 911 you go off track immediately. Pfeeh, long story. I'll stop here. Commentary from the more experienced guys will be appreciated!

 

[RobertR1]

Yeah, forgot to mention taking 17ltrs takes the same amount of time as the tires.

I'll have to think about that next time as it was a fair amount of time sitting there waiting for fuel to top up.

Just so I remember right, you said 540 for steering ratio on the LMP1 right? My forearms will thank you lol

 

[Medilloni]

.....When Enzo went off track yesterday, he stated that that wouldn't have happened on his rig (Heusinkveld pedals and direct drive steering wheel). Such a rig is a lot of money and I'm not convinced yet that it will give me so much more fun that it's worth. So my next steps are to find more confidence and practice to drive more aggressive.......

That's interesting Han, my TS PC Racer started to die a few weeks ago (something rattling/broken inside, gives a very odd 'gyro' feeling) and whereas before I could catch a slide very quickly (imo lol), now it's as bad as my old Logitech wheel, which was awful compared to the ts pc when it used to work well.

My point is, the better the immersion, the better you'll be (not saying it improves a person as a driver, I mean relevant to that person's skills). I'd love a DD wheel and decent pedals - it's not for the wheel strength, it's for the immediate and constant feel that they give. Any new equipment for me is a no-no right now, though when we sell the house (hopefully around spring!) I hope to afford a DD and decent pedals. Well, I can dream

 

[Kek700]

Please forgive the high jack, @HF2000, this is my place at the moment, smooth is ok, I have noticed that the fastest drivers live on an edge.
To achieve that you run that ragged edge of instability, meaning you are not smoothly inputting,
but quick accurate constant adjustments, easily said, difficult to copy, maybe for a few corners, maybe if you are lucky for a lap, but consecutive laps for me is a big No.

It is strange that for a couple of weeks now I have been meaning to put this question to you, knowing your association with Enzo.

I quite often follow john, noticing that he runs on the edge a lot more than I do, following gives me the opportunity to observe were he makes time, it is always were that applies best that he makes a tenth here a tenth there. John is always quicker than I in qualifying, I have always assumed that it is because of the very thing you have raised.

PS, I will stick with my smooth, just so less stressful than on the edge, but I always have been fascinated with that extra few seconds some are able to extract from a lap.
Always had a good idea on how and why, but never been able to get a conversation on this particular subject going as of yet.

I would be interested in your comments, in the end you have first hand experience, me it is just partly guess work.

 

[pattikins]

@Raresch Raresch, I'm somewhat in the same situation. I don't seem to make any progress anymore which is a bit frustrating as we can see with others that there's still a lot to gain. Enzo was here yesterday and he did a few laps with the Lambo on my rig (A G27). His driving style is much more agressive. I tend to turn the wheel smoothly into a turn while he does this far more abrupt, causing more oversteer but in a controlled manner with fast steering correction and with as result that he can hit the thrustpedal earlier and therefore achieving a better exit. You have to have a lot of confidence in the car to do that. When I try the same I mostly end off track. But it's also partly rig depending. When Enzo went off track yesterday, he stated that that wouldn't have happened on his rig (Heusinkveld pedals and direct drive steering wheel). Such a rig is a lot of money and I'm not convinced yet that it will give me so much more fun that it will be worth it. So my next steps are to find more confidence and practice to drive more aggressive. That's also the reason I switched from the 911 to the R8. I believe that the 911 and the Lambo are really fast if driven aggressive. But they are also unforgiven. In the last races with the 911 I was frightened for almost every turn. Not good to gain confidence. The R8 lets you correct oversteer to a certain amount where in the 911 you go off track immediately. Pfeeh, long story. I'll stop here. Commentary from the more experienced guys will be appreciated!

When I first started racing @ RD I used the Lambo exclusively for gt3 races for about 8 months (& getting lapped for most of that time) and then the penny dropped. My driving style doesn't suit that type of car - or as is more likely, I'm too old to maintain the energy levels needed for aggressive driving. Coincidentally, I had a quick go in the Lambo in the Sveg practice sessions & I was way behind the times that I set in the SCG or 650s. Have you tried all the other gt3 cars? I know that I am going to start doing that from now on.

You don't have to spend a fortune on improving your hardware. The Fanatec CSL Elite pedals get decent reviews & don't cost the earth. I sometimes see them on ebay, & they hold their price if you decide that you don't like them.

 

[pattikins]

I quite often follow john, noticing that he runs on the edge a lot more than I do, following gives me the opportunity to observe were he makes time, it is always were that applies best that he makes a tenth here a tenth there. John is always quicker than I in qualifying, I have always assumed that it is because of the very thing you have raised.

What happens if John watches you for a tenth here...

 

[Chark]

First of all, thanks for putting up that event, and thanks to the people who showed up! I like mod tracks that are a bit different to the usual road courses. Feels nice for a change.

There was an LMP in corner 1 in the last 10 min I'm not sure who it was but honestly man I'm so sorry I thought you had enough space to pass I almost killed you

That was just me running out of talent. You were predictable and clean. Me sending my car in the wall was nothing but my own doing.

I crashed into a spinning LMP1 car

That was most likely me as well. Let's just say I have done better races in the past... I was really inconsistent and made a lot of mistakes. I'm sorry to have interfered with your race.

At least I had some fun chasing @SOLO59 back and forth!

 

[Kek700]

Patrick makes a lot of sense, I am hopeless in the lambo, in fact anything lambo, SG is another car that I just do not get, BMW love it, just cannot on most circuits get any pace from it.
the rest of them ( not sure about the Mercedes ) I am quicker than in my GTR.
I hang my hat on the GTR, cause I just like it so much. Sad.

 

[640er]

That was most likely me as well. Let's just say I have done better races in the past... I was really inconsistent and made a lot of mistakes. I'm sorry to have interfered with your race.

Don't worry (sh)it happens. In one of the last races (Porsche @Mills) I was in your shoes. Spinning on track and becoming a well received target for the cars behind me

 

[Raresch]

Disaster for me. I had gsync compatible mode enabled and every 5 mins or so one of my screens would go black for 5 seconds or so. It was the middle screen most of the time and never on a straight.

Didn't happen during practice or Quali so must have been frame rate issue when all cars were on track. Very dissapointing.

I hadn't really races in a couple of weeks and was rusty anyway. Thankfully I didn't ruin anyone's race.

Thanks for organising lads

That's why you went straight for the grass at some point, right before the main straight. I barely missed you. went on grass but I was fine. Didn't clipped the wall. Pretty scarry thou

 

[Raresch]

Have you tried all the other gt3 cars?

When I first tried GT3's, around April I think, I've tested more of them. At that time, I couldn't cope with the turbo lag of the 650 or any other car that had a turbo. So after 2 months or so of testing and changing the car every week, I've ended up with the R8, which felt pretty good. The Lambo is also an option.

 

[Enzo Fazzi]

Please forgive the high jack, @HF2000, this is my place at the moment, smooth is ok, I have noticed that the fastest drivers live on an edge.
To achieve that you run that ragged edge of instability, meaning you are not smoothly inputting,
but quick accurate constant adjustments, easily said, difficult to copy, maybe for a few corners, maybe if you are lucky for a lap, but consecutive laps for me is a big No.

It is strange that for a couple of weeks now I have been meaning to put this question to you, knowing your association with Enzo.

I quite often follow john, noticing that he runs on the edge a lot more than I do, following gives me the opportunity to observe were he makes time, it is always were that applies best that he makes a tenth here a tenth there. John is always quicker than I in qualifying, I have always assumed that it is because of the very thing you have raised.

PS, I will stick with my smooth, just so less stressful than on the edge, but I always have been fascinated with that extra few seconds some are able to extract from a lap.
Always had a good idea on how and why, but never been able to get a conversation on this particular subject going as of yet.

I would be interested in your comments, in the end you have first hand experience, me it is just partly guess work.

I think there is more to it than what Han said, perhaps also caused by a misobservation on his part. I wouldn't say my driving style is aggressive, I mainly do endurance races in rF2 and I'm very good at managing the tires and fuel. An aggressive driving style would cause the opposite of that. Also have a look at my consistency in the 60 min GT3 races, all laps without traffic are usually within 4 tenths of each other.
I would describe mine and Han's driving as "decisive" vs. "hesitant", rather than aggressive vs. smooth.
When I see Han drive, I notice that he slowly feeds the wheel into the corner, reaching peak lock around the apex. Which is strange, as you'd want to stop turning the wheel there and just let the car roll out for the apex.
I reach peak lock on turn in, this makes sense because the angle from the nose of your car to the apex is the highest, so it is the point where you'd want to turn the most, right?

The way I'm explaining it is a little bit extreme and in reality it is of course more nuanced.

 

[Kek700]

Very interesting Enzo, I did in my mind always put a reservation on my statements and Han’s comments, unfortunately my language does not allow me to explain the detail how I would like it.
Aggressive, I would from what I have seen ( limited observation ) not really want to say that as a complete observation, busy, constantly on the edge of grip, I am talking about tyres and chassis.
( still not an complete explanation )

If done correctly I do not see as you say why it would have a negative effect on a whole race,
over done, I can see that effecting a whole race.
By observation I know what you say is true, other wise all the fast guys would be pitting more than the rest of us.

Always get my steering done by the first third to half of the corner, slow input like Han, then search
max grip within that first third to half, the two thirds or half is mainly used to get the car ready for acceleration, so at the apex normally the wheel is pointing in the exit direction I want to go.
But as you, I think, so correctly say, its the nuance, on one centimetre movement of the wheel can equate to 10 meters on the road, where, when and how often can make all the difference in
some corners.

Without data logging and looking the fine detail comparatively driver to driver, that then will explain why, leaving the observer to come up with a way of replacing skill with !!!!!!!

At the end of the day I am an average driver, well, driving averagely.

Hesitant, excellent description, mine is more careful, years of driving for real have ingrained that
in me.

 

[Enzo Fazzi]

I'll see if I can upload some data in the future, I haven't been logging telemetry in AC as I simply don't spend much time practicing for club events. Or maybe I can help with comparing data to mine when I have some time.

 

[RobertR1]

Outside of the luxury of hitting the reset button, I find that I'm more hesitant in games than I am in real track driving because IRL I can rely on different "feelings" to make my choices especially at corner entry. In games, I'm limited to visual acuity and the fidelity of the feedback through the wheel.

IRL, things are easier as I have a bigger toolbox to choose from. However, the fundamentals are the same in what I'm looking to get done. My goals for every corner: get the car to the apex as quickly as I can with the front end pointing at the exit. Power out and open up my hands to maximize the acceleration. Cars accelerate better when on the fatter part of the tire.

 

[HF2000]

Hesitant, aggressive, smooth, careful. I don't mind the terminology. I think it's subjective and as English is not my native language (obviously!) I'm not able to use the fine nuances that I so admire in the UK inhabitants. My point was that like @Raresch I'm looking for ways to improve myself because after a year in RD my progress seems to have stopped. And as Enzo is so much faster, I thought it would be a good starting point to look at the differences in driving style. And I thank him and the others for their feedback. It's food for thought which maybe very helpful. So keep it coming, please!

 

[Medilloni]

These are my favourite conversations, but alas, I rabbit too much hopefully some of you guys might enjoy the below:

This guy is gold imo, saved to favourites and watch it regularly https://driver61.com/ he constantly reminds me of my stupid mistakes and all the things I (and I guess, many of you guys) knew but simply forget about.

Regarding the degree and aggressiveness of turn into a corner, there's a great (short) vid of driving styles from Martin Brundle here - in particular how Alonso gets the front end in - though yes, there's aero involved.