iRacing Review

[OverTake.gg]

Bram Hengeveld submitted a new blog post:

iRacing Review

More than five years after its initial release, I feel it’s finally time to give iRacing the professional review treatment. Five years is more than enough time for one game to sort out all of its issues, the game costs several times more than your traditional boxed PC game available on the shelves at Best Buy, and deciding whether to take the plunge based on biased forum ramblings is never a good idea. Six hundred million laps later, it’s time to finally take a look at iRacing, and determine...

Continue reading the Original Blog Post

 

[Bakkster]

Yeah, I don't ever remember tankslappers being much of a problem OTM. By the time you would hook back the other way the car was too far gone anyway. They happened, but we were too busy complaining how the track felt like it was ice and we were drifting the whole time, or that once you started spinning you didn't stop until you had gone around a few dozen times, or that you couldn't even look at the curbs or grass without becoming backwards.

I remember spending a season or two in the SRF, I believe, on the NTM and trying to go back to the Mustang which was still OTM. I had gotten so used to being able to use the exit curbing that when I tracked out the first time to one in the Mustang it snapped me around. That was pretty much all the confirmation I needed that the NTM was what I preferred to drive.

 

[Jarninho]

Our memory also plays tricks on us. I installed GPL a couple of months ago, after they delayed the Lotus 49 again. In my memory it drove wonderful, and looked stunning. Boy, was I wrong Plus, I couldn't drive it without spinning. I think people who prefer the otm also have that colored memory.

Also, lot's of people have picked up bad habits from other sims. In iRacing, a 50% worn out tire gives you the exact same amount of grip as a brand new one. And, that is also pretty much how it works in the real world (except F1). My racecar has Toyo semi-slicks and if anything, they get more grip as they wear out. My old go-kart had slicks so sticky I couldn't lift it of the ground after stopping, but with 50% remaining I could still do the same laptimes.
But every sim that I have driven works with wear as a grip indicator. While temps and pressures are the only factors in that.

But there's still lot's of flaws in the ntm. The tankslapper as mentioned. But that's getting better. I find the temperatures and wear very confusing. Even with telemetry I can't finetune my car. If I do it by feel, I am faster than by telemetry, which should be the other way around (first tune by feel, then finetune by telemetry). And I think, but am not sure, that the tires get too hot after a slide and loose too much grip.

 

[Racer Tom]

This "review" is ridiculous. One kids opinion vs. the more than 40k members who seem to be enjoying what iRacing has to offer (as evidenced by their paid subscriptions). I have driven every sim title out there and nothing compares to iRacing - road or oval.

I'll agree that iRacing is not perfect, what game or piece of software is? The best part of iRacing is that it is being developed as we read this 'review'. It has gotten better with every build since it opened its doors to customers and I have no reason to believe it won't continue to grow - both in terms of a sim and in terms of membership.

 

[Senad Subasic]

Well, if nothing else, the number of registered members shot up

 

[Chronus]

Yeah, I don't ever remember tankslappers being much of a problem OTM.

That is precisely it: "much of a problem", and that is your experience of it or your view. Mine is a bit different and talking to other iracers I understood that I was not alone in this.

While explanations for this behaviour were thrown by various individuals, fact is the tankslappers happened in the OTM. We talked about it, we discussed ways and setups to oppose it. They were not as frequent as with the NTM, hmmm, maybe you're right. But that doesn't mean that our perspective and discussions of it at official forums were wrong.

Different people have different ways of coping with this and other issues.

That was pretty much all the confirmation I needed that the NTM was what I preferred to drive.

Yes, and that alone provides the "why" many don't even acknowledge these problems with iRacing. Even with the NTM, several cars are very unstable - they fluctuate between drivable and barely so. But people (even me) learn to cope with these issues. We adapt.

But adaptation to these issues doesn't mean they don't exist anymore. They do.

Obviously, some folks delude themselves and others into thinking this is not so - heck, I remember the flame-posts at the official forums when the first guys begun complaining about the rocket-ship V8SC (colliding with rails and being shot back through the air) and the exploding HPD and the usual suspects denied this...until replays showed what was happening and devs admitted to the problem.

Now, professional drivers tell us most iRacing cars are still far from realistic (tire wise at least). That is all I need to know, even though I may expect to see improvements to iRacing.

 

[Chris Partridge]

Now, professional drivers tell us most iRacing cars are still far from realistic (tire wise at least). That is all I need to know, even though I may expect to see improvements to iRacing.

Richard Westbrook described the HPD as "spot on".

An Australian V8 racer descbribed the modelled car "as is in real life" -- and it was slippery in real life and a handful to drive.

I know of one other professional driver who described the Corvette the equivalent of how it is in real life.

Just three examples.

Nothing is perfect. But some things are better at getting closer towards it than others. I see next weeks build adds much greater refinement to tyre flex on the rim for NTM.

Regarding unrecoverable spins, go 4mins 50s into this video and watch what happens at T1 of the opening lap. They can be realistically unrecoverable in real life too!

 

[William Levesque]

Are you serious ? Are you aware that there was a hit ?

 

[Chronus]

Richard Westbrook described the HPD as "spot on".

An Australian V8 racer descbribed the modelled car "as is in real life" -- and it was slippery in real life and a handful to drive.

I know of one other professional driver who described the Corvette the equivalent of how it is in real life.

LOL

C3PO, respectfully, through blogs, iracing forums, twitter entries and personal contact,I have dozens of examples of professional race drivers that say otherwise.

Now, maybe Richard Westbrook tried a better build of the HPD, it may even be the case that the HPD has suddenly and massively improved.

But feedback contrary to what you post above is abundant. Even from guys who race side by side at times with the likes of Shane tell of a different story with live comments from these guys that are absolutely demolishing of the V8SC car.

Nothing is perfect. But some things are better at getting closer towards it than others. I see next weeks build adds much greater refinement to tyre flex on the rim for NTM.

Obviously, nothing is perfect. And I agree some sims are closer than others. Maybe with time, iRacing will get there too. Not now.

But before that...I suspect many will start asking the right questions about the assumptions behind Dave Kaemmer's tire model. For some reason, probably out of respect or sheer fanboyism, only a few have asked those questions (and didn't receive the correct answers). I would welcome the discussion started with Dave's thread (a week or so after 2.0 was released) and rudely wrecked by a few, started all over again with constructive contributions from all sides in trying to understand the issues and help Dave Kaemmer - I know however that will never happen.

Regarding unrecoverable spins, go 4mins 50s into this video and watch what happens at T1 of the opening lap. They can be realistically unrecoverable in real life too!

I agree with you. It's how those spins happen, however, the circumstances behind them that are quite different between RL and iRacing.

I have seen those videos of yours (I assume it is you in them? driving the vantage and so on?). I deduce you have access to complete telemetry readings from those outings of yours. I am certain that you should be able to spot the obvious problems with iRacing's tire behaviour. As have I, from the material given to me in the last 3 years or so. And while iRacing excels in a number of ways (suspension movement, collisions, netcode), sorry but even 6 year old tire model code does a better job than iRacing's.

Until I go out again with the simulated iRacing C6r, the Ford GT and MP4-12C and compare their t-data with what I have and be satisfied by it, sorry, no way I can agree with you.

And then...there's that discussion I mention above about the assumptions in Dave's NTM. Plenty of exciting things to talk about.

 

[Chronus]

C3PO,

I just watched this video by Digiprost:

Hmm...maybe things are indeed improving, judging by the way that g-meter "behaves". I hope so.

 

[Chris Partridge]

C3PO,

I just watched this video by Digiprost:

Hmm...maybe things are indeed improving, judging by the way that g-meter "behaves". I hope so.

I think half the problem is the perception of the tyre model from the FFB ... now I still think iRacing can do much better in this area (it recently remodelled the FFB component to better reflect rack forces, and it has improved from a few months ago). It's easy to conflate the tyre model with the FFB model and assume the tyres are wrong because the FFB isn't delivering the correct forces at any one point in time.

The best way, from what I can see, is comparing wheel slip with G-forces, as that would give a demonstration of where and how the tyre is letting go under load at the limit and over the limit.

Comparing it with RL stuff would provide a comparison. I'll ask a McLaren GT3 team if we can do some comparisons, I have a few contacts.

 

[Chronus]

I think half the problem is the perception of the tyre model from the FFB ... now I still think iRacing can do much better in this area (it recently remodelled the FFB component to better reflect rack forces, and it has improved from a few months ago).

Hmm, perhaps. I for one pay very little attention to FFB, so tend to focus on details that do not depend on controller drivers or transitory code (FFB is frequently changed/adapted).

The best way, from what I can see, is comparing wheel slip with G-forces, as that would give a demonstration of where and how the tyre is letting go under load at the limit and over the limit.

Fully agree! When modelling cars for customers, I tend to rely on raw data collected from a variety of sources (AiM, Motec, Traqmate, I even recall csv files exported from racepak i think) or even video feed with telemetry superimposed (a bit tricky, no doubt).

Some mix yaw rate sensors with steering angle sensors and wheel speed sensors to assess the accuracy of data, so far these systems do not fail to provide very accurate measurements.

Curiously, while the slip figures show that the contact patch is "too active", this video from a recent build of the MP4-12c at least shows one thing that I find most promising: brake forces (up to 2g and peaking slightly above it at times) and cornering forces (with short bursts above 2.5g) are spot on for most GT1 and GT3 cars - I can imagine that the MP4-12c is not far away (for the better) from this.

Comparing it with RL stuff would provide a comparison. I'll ask a McLaren GT3 team if we can do some comparisons, I have a few contacts.

That would be great. Thus far, I haven't managed to grab anything from the MP4-12c, apart from sparse info by pilots in the program.

Hope you get it.

 

[DewCrew88]

This "review" is ridiculous. One kids opinion vs. the more than 40k members who seem to be enjoying what iRacing has to offer (as evidenced by their paid subscriptions). I have driven every sim title out there and nothing compares to iRacing - road or oval.

I'll agree that iRacing is not perfect, what game or piece of software is? The best part of iRacing is that it is being developed as we read this 'review'. It has gotten better with every build since it opened its doors to customers and I have no reason to believe it won't continue to grow - both in terms of a sim and in terms of membership.

Racer Tom- Funny becuase Austin, the "kid" makes more valid points than you are willing to admit. Many people agree with him inside the various different circles within sim racing. iRacing is arguably getting worse every build. The FFB has devolved over the past 3 builds in ways that I would have never imagined when I joined 4 years ago.

How many of those 40k members are duplicate accounts, media accounts, people who no longer play etc? There are at most 4500 members "online" in a given night. Meaning that they at the very least stopped by the member page or forums.

Pretty telling that even with the Gen6 car's being some of iRacing's better efforts that there are still struggles to get two splits of 19 cars on a week night.

 

[DewCrew88]

I think being banned from iRacing should be reason enough not to write a review. Seems like that taints the objectivity.

If this were jury selection you wouldn't be allowed on the jury. You raced a few hundred road races and then say it's not worth trying???? No one does hundreds of races without enjoyment.

You also are saying is favoritism? You were banned and you don't agree. I get it. You sound like your marriage broke up after 15 years and you struggle to remember the good times.

What could have been a good review has some exaggerated comments. The road cars are plenty fun and well worth driving. The service is split 50/50 road and oval and the road side is growing just as the oval side is every month.

You were banned. This is your way of getting payback. I get it. Unfortunately many reading this won't understand your motivation for writing a review. Too bad Race Department allows a moderator to post a review after being banned. Poor judgement IMO.

I also think that guys like you who use various different aliases across the sim forums to mask who you are on the iRacing forums (one of the bigger iRaicng propaganda spreader's on their fourms and across the sim world) should be banned from having opinions too no?

 

[Chronus]

Racer Tom- Funny becuase Austin, the "kid" makes more valid points than you are willing to admit. Many people agree with him inside the various different circles within sim racing.

But it gets worse, DewCrew (hi mate!). I already told people here: to my surprise, several iRacing PRO drivers told me of their disappointment over the evolution of iRacing (some complain that the NTM made it too easy for novice drivers to drive fast - I don't agree -, while others complain about what the rest of us complain: ice skating, loss of traction at low speeds, etc, etc). Moreover, when I asked them why not tell this to devs, in particular to DK, their response was "the man has isolated himself", or "is too far removed from the members".

Instead of betting on karts and new cars, DK ought to solve the existing problems there are with the physics engine. If he does that, membership will grow faster effectively.

How many of those 40k members are duplicate accounts, media accounts, people who no longer play etc? There are at most 4500 members "online" in a given night. Meaning that they at the very least stopped by the member page or forums.

Recall the stats threads on NG? If there's one thing that is quite clear is that 40k members all saying iRacing is great is a lie. You can strip those 40k of the duplicate accounts, media accounts and people who rarely go there, and what is left is a figure far bellow 35k.

Then...do real surveys on the members opinion on several matters, and that figure will drop even further to represent those that actually are active, enjoy it and think of it as the best racing sim ever.

But hey, hype is hype.

 

[Chris Partridge]

Been doing some laps around Oulton Park in the MP4-12C to prepare for this comparison test and some interesting stuff popped up on the telemetry. Two examples are enclosed here.

http://imageshack.us/f/823/oulton.jpg/

In this first snapshot from MoTeC, the car is turning at the fast T3 left-hander. With Gs exceeded 2.0 there is remarkably little evidence of the wheels losing grip on the tarmac, although there is a degree of "scrabbling" for grip as indicated by the spikes in the blue Wheel Spin Rear trace.

Now this next image demonstrates the telemetry from a big slide out of a corner, and just about recoverable.

http://imageshack.us/f/341/oulton2.jpg/

At this point I'm entering a fast right hander the front and rear wheels are spinning all over the place, it seems, from the Wheel Spin Front and Rear traces (green and blue respectively). Right at the end of this graph is reverse lock to counter the skid, which was recoverable. G forces exceeded 2.2 in this instance with the entering the corner at 131 mph.

 

[Chronus]

Been doing some laps around Oulton Park in the MP4-12C to prepare for this comparison test and some interesting stuff popped up on the telemetry. Two examples are enclosed here.

http://imageshack.us/f/823/oulton.jpg/

First off, good info and pics.

Wheel Spin figures seem quite alright for the speed - I don't know the position on track, though.

But...that spike of 3.4g seems a bit excessive.

Telemetry can indeed show similar spikes after a jump over a kerb (rubber/carcass extends/decompresses, is vibrating and upon hitting the ground deflects, contact patch grabs, distortion ensues around the rim) - components of motion observed are for instance the vertical displacement and a mix rotation about two axis, the tire force spikes to very high levels for a small fraction of a second. So, did that 3.4755g occur after that kind of event?

In this first snapshot from MoTeC, the car is turning at the fast T3 left-hander. With Gs exceeded 2.0 there is remarkably little evidence of the wheels losing grip on the tarmac, although there is a degree of "scrabbling" for grip as indicated by the spikes in the blue Wheel Spin Rear trace.

True, but well within reasonable values. And the proportion of spin to the front wheels seems to indicate understeer - maybe upon corner entry? Or perhaps mid-corner?

Now this next image demonstrates the telemetry from a big slide out of a corner, and just about recoverable.

http://imageshack.us/f/341/oulton2.jpg/

Spiking and spiking all the way (wheels spinning, that is).

But lat force seems to hold steady for long enough.

There's also full on brake pressure (100%) and spikes of 18% front skid at the same time. Pretty interesting stuff.

 

[Chris Partridge]

Ah - isn't the 3.4 the delta value ... in this case between a negative and positive value? The max G positive is 2.2 IIRC.

 

[Chronus]

Ah - isn't the 3.4 the delta value ... in this case between a negative and positive value? The max G positive is 2.2 IIRC.

You're right!
It's the diff between opposing vectors of the same acceleration. I messed that one up...

Reformulating...it makes sense. Would like to see how high can you get that if you're really trying hard.

 

[William Levesque]

I have to say, I got back in iRacing after around a year when I got a couple months free, the MX-5 feels quite nice. A bit "special" on the brakes, but overall it's pretty darn good

 

[DewCrew88]

Racer Tom- Funny becuase Austin, the "kid" makes more valid points than you are willing to admit. Many people agree with him inside the various different circles within sim racing.

But it gets worse, DewCrew (hi mate!). I already told people here: to my surprise, several iRacing PRO drivers told me of their disappointment over the evolution of iRacing (some complain that the NTM made it too easy for novice drivers to drive fast - I don't agree -, while others complain about what the rest of us complain: ice skating, loss of traction at low speeds, etc, etc). Moreover, when I asked them why not tell this to devs, in particular to DK, their response was "the man has isolated himself", or "is too far removed from the members".

Instead of betting on karts and new cars, DK ought to solve the existing problems there are with the physics engine. If he does that, membership will grow faster effectively.

How many of those 40k members are duplicate accounts, media accounts, people who no longer play etc? There are at most 4500 members "online" in a given night. Meaning that they at the very least stopped by the member page or forums.

Recall the stats threads on NG? If there's one thing that is quite clear is that 40k members all saying iRacing is great is a lie. You can strip those 40k of the duplicate accounts, media accounts and people who rarely go there, and what is left is a figure far bellow 35k.

Then...do real surveys on the members opinion on several matters, and that figure will drop even further to represent those that actually are active, enjoy it and think of it as the best racing sim ever.

But hey, hype is hype.

Hey Chronous!

Alot of the sim racers I keep in touch with on a daily and or weekly basis are of the opinion that if the tire doesnt start coming around soon than they might want to consider upgrading the 10 year old physics engine from NR2003.

I also agree with DK and the other dev's being isolated from the member base. It seems to me that Aris and Stefano at AC drive the cars and have a vested interest in them being able to perform correctly at the speed that the fast sim racers will be driving them.

On iRacing Eric Hudec has several times asked members what a car is doing wrong becuase he had no idea it was doing something wrong. Like the V8SC going faster with the rear spoiler higher in the air(more rake), or the HPD being too slow on the straight away compared to the GT cars.

Look at the staffs stats, they dont race on the service or race competitively to know what we know about where the physics and cars fall apart. What I mean is the guys who are fast or fast enough to remain top5-10 or so in a top split of 20-30 cars(like most of us posting here).

They are getting sunshine blown their way from the beta testers because they are for the most part 4 and 5 year members who generally seem to be happy with the status quo and telling them everything is great. Or they are DWC drivers who are just happy to be getting a leg up on the competition.