Like many driver aids, what you are suggesting should be optional, like ABS or TC.
I Am Tired of This
- Thread starter Davide Nativo
- Start date
Like many driver aids, what you are suggesting should be optional, like ABS or TC.
That's something I'm really want in a single player game. A mix of Motorsport Manager and a race sim.
For iRacing I just have several pre-planned pit stops set up in the in-sim macros and tied to buttons on my button box. Need just a splash of fuel - hit the "Splash" button. Need left side tires only - hit the "Lefts" button, etc. 
Not to mention the ability in iR to have teammates in the sim with you, acting as spotter or crew chief - takes a lot of the load off in endurance events for sure.
Not to mention the ability in iR to have teammates in the sim with you, acting as spotter or crew chief - takes a lot of the load off in endurance events for sure.
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Why do you ask this by quoting me ? I was not talking about various RL stability systems.
If you ask this in context of (random classic car in mind) Lancia D50 if it should have ABS and TC. Then my answer is - everything that is not a honest simulation should be optional. Or not presented at all.
If you ask that in the context of simulating something like modern racecars. Then obviously if car has some sort of driving aid system then it is good idea to have it simulated.
but I am not sure if I understood the aim of your question
I wasn't asking a question...
Ghoults
Lasse Luisu
When we drive our cars in sims we have to be our own race engineer, our own strategy engineer, our own team manager and our own car engineer. Doing all of that in our head while driving is manageable but when you need to go through various menus to set things up, usually in a hurry, is always just annoying. And unrealistic. And can ruin a race because the game doesn't communicate what it needs or what is happening. Can I pit now? In some games that is still a mystery you just have to know. Having to request a pitstop is just unnecessary micromanagement for example that is both unrealistic and weird. In real life the team can request a driver to pit. In some sims...
And worst of all is the absolute stupidity of making pitstops into minigames. I won't say anything more about that.
Some basic level automation should be a given at this point. I mean if it is a mandatory 1 stopper of a race the game should be able to do all that for you because it is a server setting or race setting. The computer has all the info it needs to make those decisions. Is it just fuel or is it fuel+tires required. It knows all that. Calculating fuel is simple for 1 lap accuracy. Building a small safety into those settings is not exactly rocket science either.
It is a simple calculation, perfect for computer to calculate and then adjust as things change. Of course if a player wants to do it manually then let him. But Lewis did not win 7 championships in f1 because he has the best finger dexterity for pitstops. Red bull doesn't have the fastest pitstops because Max can clickety-clack through the menus quicker than anybody else.
Just give the player couple of pit stop presets before the race. We are not asking perfect strategy for 24 hour race with 7 different tire compounds, limited number of tire sets, x driver changes and the game telling where we come in traffic after the pitstop... but even then the game knows all those things so it should at least show us some of that information if we are required to make all the choices. Then we can at least make informed choices... like the real strategy team in real life... if that is what we are simulating here. In a way it is double unrealistic that we have to be our own strategy team because we have to do it essentially blind with no information.
I don't think it needs an ai. Just having useful information available would be a start. Some games don't even have fuel estimation. That is just lazy. The bare minimum every game needs is a fuel estimation. Not just for the race but for the pitstops. Build from there. Having pitstop presets would be great where the computer can fill in the blanks. And give the player the information so he can make informed choices.
I hate it that some people are making this into yet another elitism thing. "A true simracer always sets his pit strategy via menus while driving bumper to bumper at 300kmh"... bollocks. If realism is our goal then driver should be the last link in that chain. Not the only link. Driver should have the last word to decide whether to go with the given option or whether to override it. Not be the one who has to calculate it all everytime, all the time and then make it happen 200 clicks per minute while doing 4 wheel combat at 300kph.
And worst of all is the absolute stupidity of making pitstops into minigames. I won't say anything more about that.
Some basic level automation should be a given at this point. I mean if it is a mandatory 1 stopper of a race the game should be able to do all that for you because it is a server setting or race setting. The computer has all the info it needs to make those decisions. Is it just fuel or is it fuel+tires required. It knows all that. Calculating fuel is simple for 1 lap accuracy. Building a small safety into those settings is not exactly rocket science either.
It is a simple calculation, perfect for computer to calculate and then adjust as things change. Of course if a player wants to do it manually then let him. But Lewis did not win 7 championships in f1 because he has the best finger dexterity for pitstops. Red bull doesn't have the fastest pitstops because Max can clickety-clack through the menus quicker than anybody else.
Just give the player couple of pit stop presets before the race. We are not asking perfect strategy for 24 hour race with 7 different tire compounds, limited number of tire sets, x driver changes and the game telling where we come in traffic after the pitstop... but even then the game knows all those things so it should at least show us some of that information if we are required to make all the choices. Then we can at least make informed choices... like the real strategy team in real life... if that is what we are simulating here. In a way it is double unrealistic that we have to be our own strategy team because we have to do it essentially blind with no information.
I don't think it needs an ai. Just having useful information available would be a start. Some games don't even have fuel estimation. That is just lazy. The bare minimum every game needs is a fuel estimation. Not just for the race but for the pitstops. Build from there. Having pitstop presets would be great where the computer can fill in the blanks. And give the player the information so he can make informed choices.
I hate it that some people are making this into yet another elitism thing. "A true simracer always sets his pit strategy via menus while driving bumper to bumper at 300kmh"... bollocks. If realism is our goal then driver should be the last link in that chain. Not the only link. Driver should have the last word to decide whether to go with the given option or whether to override it. Not be the one who has to calculate it all everytime, all the time and then make it happen 200 clicks per minute while doing 4 wheel combat at 300kph.
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something along these lines is what I was thinking in the past as well,
games are falling a bit into trap of "let's add all these features"
sometimes it helps but other times in hinders.
I would definitely prefer to have a AI crew cheif that is talking to me , even better if I can reply and we can agree/disagree , but ultimately they will be the ones putting all the dials in
I definitely do not enjoy tryign to setup my next pit on straight or while already in pit lane , and then missing out because of rushed calculations , or forgetting to so do something
pre-planned strategy can work, but things change and you want to react and come up with new plan.
games are falling a bit into trap of "let's add all these features"
sometimes it helps but other times in hinders.
I would definitely prefer to have a AI crew cheif that is talking to me , even better if I can reply and we can agree/disagree , but ultimately they will be the ones putting all the dials in
I definitely do not enjoy tryign to setup my next pit on straight or while already in pit lane , and then missing out because of rushed calculations , or forgetting to so do something
pre-planned strategy can work, but things change and you want to react and come up with new plan.
Oh yes, I am sorry way too tired and to much multi tasking today... But I stay up to my point automatic setups makes little sense. Kunos in ACC made what is closest to that and still makes sense - a few preset setups for smooth or aggressive drivign styles. No need to overthink that.
Does not matter what sim I play. I can pre plan everything and all but once I'm racing I tend to micromanage my strategy lap by lap when that pit window is around the corner.
Most sims I know allow you to plan your stops both ahead of the race and during the race. It's not difficult to change a menu whilst on a straight.
@Renato Simioni did you read this? Some great points made, this could be great in AMS2 and an industry first.
JimLee
Premium
You forgot one
the "Lewis Hamilton"... after all why drive at all, when you can just sit back and manage the team 
I have recently realized that endurance racing is my favorite type of racing (if only it could be more popular in the US), regardless of era and part of that is because of the needed race strategy. I don't think in long races that an AI would be perfect at reacting and planning for your driving, especially if the race has variable weather.
Personally I don't mind having to adjust my pit stop strategy on the fly but I do like being able to save several strategies before the race to expedite things. This way I can select a strategy and modify it if necessary when on track. I always give myself a little more fuel than necessary with my strategies and generally make variants of each strategy, with or without tires for each strategy for example.
If more aspects of sim racing were automated, like setups and pit stops, I think it would be taking control from the players. At the same time it might level the playing field more and let us all focus on the driving. I am no set up master, although I get better at doing setups each year but I seem to do fairly well with pit stops. Even so I like that being able to tinker with set ups and pit stops is a part of all these lovely simulations. Perhaps what developers need to do is enable the option and make these options for servers/communities to discuss and decide upon before races.
Personally I don't mind having to adjust my pit stop strategy on the fly but I do like being able to save several strategies before the race to expedite things. This way I can select a strategy and modify it if necessary when on track. I always give myself a little more fuel than necessary with my strategies and generally make variants of each strategy, with or without tires for each strategy for example.
If more aspects of sim racing were automated, like setups and pit stops, I think it would be taking control from the players. At the same time it might level the playing field more and let us all focus on the driving. I am no set up master, although I get better at doing setups each year but I seem to do fairly well with pit stops. Even so I like that being able to tinker with set ups and pit stops is a part of all these lovely simulations. Perhaps what developers need to do is enable the option and make these options for servers/communities to discuss and decide upon before races.
It is a pain in the ass. That should be handled to a team mate in any sim, I also miss the chance to make small adjustments to wings during pit stops, but that feature should also be handled to a team mate. I race mostly in ACC and driving on a straight while lapping drivers, changing gears, configuring tyre pressures adjustments meanwhile I'm mentally calculating how much fuel I would need to add to finish the next stint is an absurd mental overload.
I also think that Rfactor was right on the money with the posibility to send setups to other players, and I miss a virtual setup engineer as Cart Precission Racing and Racing Simulator 3 had and even an app like Virtual Race Engineer did something very similar in concept.
Any sim should give the player 2 options:
option 1- the virtual race engineer ask you questions and with the car data and your answers it propose changes letting you pick if you accept them as it is or let you to modify the changes. A virtual engineer is never going to be as good as someone doing their setup changes, but at least is way better than newbies and people without the time or will to learn setup work moaning how a certain simulator is crap because theconfuse physics with setup work when base setup of that simulator is not to their liking
option2- Advanced mode: the same classical setup screens that we have had since simracing started in where hardcore simracers can go the extra mile.
A pit stop strategy that takes the role of strategy seriously instead of the crude implementations we have dad to endure for decades. Years ago I made an excel spreadsheet to calculate the optimal strategy based on data gathered as for example: the time lost in drive in the pitlane at speed limiter speeds, how much time it takes to refill 1 liter, how much time takes to change the tyres, the influence of weight in laptime, the influence of tyre degradation in laptime, the tyre life..., and a lot more data.
That spreadsheed did a simulation of all the possible strategies and showed the 3 best on 3 superposed time graphs, and at first glance you could know what whas the fastest one, and the spreadsheed showed you in a table when to stop, how much fuel you needed and what tyre compound use. I know that other people have done something similar, I once saw another one made by the guys that did the virtual race engineer. I don't know why in 2020 we still don't have proper strategy tools and simulation analysis tools in every simulator, when a crude excel spreadsheed made by a complete nobody 15 years ago could.
There is a lack of proper tools, even nowadays I have my own simhub dash in wich one entire subpage is dedicated to fuel management: It calculates for me how much fuel I need to add for 20, 30, 45minutes, and a full hour of fuel with 300 meters of fuel in excess. It takes in ac count how much fuel I already have and substracts it so I can know only how much to add, it also gives a delta on real time if the fuel is burning faster than expected in order to start to save fuel. No sim has that, in offline racing you have to multitask up to ridiculous amounts meanwhile you are racing. I hope some Dev can take in account those ideas the next time his company starts a new simulator.
I used to have time to spend hours and hours making setups, understanding what setup changes made every physics engine click, creating excel worksheets, creating very convoluted motec worksheets, analysing data deeply (I enjoy that quite a lot to be honest), making really time consuming tyre life tests under different temperatures..., I used to love that, I got older and sadly I no longer have time for all that. And no longer do I want to do all that massive amount of work just to do a 3 hour race with a setup that I like and a strategy that will work fine.
Nowadays I no longer can afford to be race car driver, telemetrist, strategy engineer and setup engineer all that at the same time and what is worse: without proper tools/data. It is also insulting to have online races in where 1 or 2 team mates are just watching the race and making some calculations only to at the end of the stint have to let the driver do all the configuration work by himself risking a crash while multitasking over 250km/h.
I also think that Rfactor was right on the money with the posibility to send setups to other players, and I miss a virtual setup engineer as Cart Precission Racing and Racing Simulator 3 had and even an app like Virtual Race Engineer did something very similar in concept.
Any sim should give the player 2 options:
option 1- the virtual race engineer ask you questions and with the car data and your answers it propose changes letting you pick if you accept them as it is or let you to modify the changes. A virtual engineer is never going to be as good as someone doing their setup changes, but at least is way better than newbies and people without the time or will to learn setup work moaning how a certain simulator is crap because theconfuse physics with setup work when base setup of that simulator is not to their liking
option2- Advanced mode: the same classical setup screens that we have had since simracing started in where hardcore simracers can go the extra mile.
A pit stop strategy that takes the role of strategy seriously instead of the crude implementations we have dad to endure for decades. Years ago I made an excel spreadsheet to calculate the optimal strategy based on data gathered as for example: the time lost in drive in the pitlane at speed limiter speeds, how much time it takes to refill 1 liter, how much time takes to change the tyres, the influence of weight in laptime, the influence of tyre degradation in laptime, the tyre life..., and a lot more data.
That spreadsheed did a simulation of all the possible strategies and showed the 3 best on 3 superposed time graphs, and at first glance you could know what whas the fastest one, and the spreadsheed showed you in a table when to stop, how much fuel you needed and what tyre compound use. I know that other people have done something similar, I once saw another one made by the guys that did the virtual race engineer. I don't know why in 2020 we still don't have proper strategy tools and simulation analysis tools in every simulator, when a crude excel spreadsheed made by a complete nobody 15 years ago could.
There is a lack of proper tools, even nowadays I have my own simhub dash in wich one entire subpage is dedicated to fuel management: It calculates for me how much fuel I need to add for 20, 30, 45minutes, and a full hour of fuel with 300 meters of fuel in excess. It takes in ac count how much fuel I already have and substracts it so I can know only how much to add, it also gives a delta on real time if the fuel is burning faster than expected in order to start to save fuel. No sim has that, in offline racing you have to multitask up to ridiculous amounts meanwhile you are racing. I hope some Dev can take in account those ideas the next time his company starts a new simulator.
I used to have time to spend hours and hours making setups, understanding what setup changes made every physics engine click, creating excel worksheets, creating very convoluted motec worksheets, analysing data deeply (I enjoy that quite a lot to be honest), making really time consuming tyre life tests under different temperatures..., I used to love that, I got older and sadly I no longer have time for all that. And no longer do I want to do all that massive amount of work just to do a 3 hour race with a setup that I like and a strategy that will work fine.
Nowadays I no longer can afford to be race car driver, telemetrist, strategy engineer and setup engineer all that at the same time and what is worse: without proper tools/data. It is also insulting to have online races in where 1 or 2 team mates are just watching the race and making some calculations only to at the end of the stint have to let the driver do all the configuration work by himself risking a crash while multitasking over 250km/h.
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Depends. If I can get Crew Chief to do my calculations then yes, I enjoy customizing my pitstops during the race. If I cannot, then it sucks having to do or use fuel calculators before or even during the race.
Nitro McClean
Premium
Well, if you try to do everything by yourself, what is done in real life by different people, you are asking for problems. What about somebody who is looking at your racing and tells you where all other drivers are, what they are doing and what you should do and when to make a pitstop? All other solutions are not more than second best.
I think it should be like this, you enter in the pit lane, AI takes control, and every car has 20 seconds to manage the strategy that was pre-defined before the race, would be fair and wouldn't be this nonrealistic nonsense way that you have to manage while you are driving, it simply doesn't exist.
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