How much torque is too much?

[RasmusP]

Hi and thank you for the response.

I live in Connecticut, USA and my current wheel size is g27 with diameter of ~28cm.
This setup, however, is nowhere near my limits and/or desires.

What I don't fully understand is what Simucube 2 offers above VRS, since it's twice the price.
Simucube admittedly is also more than what I wanted to spend and disqualifying Fanatec left me without non-Chinese / new entries.

What also turned me off from VRS is that the list of supported titles is so short and most are finicky in setup and it seems they developed the DD to support their iRacing school.

https://virtualracingschool.com/academy/hardware/vrs-directforce-pro-wheel-base-settings-various-racing-titles/

Some people on Redit said they got no FB at all.
Do you know if the compatibility would be an issue? G27 is so plug and play that the question of compatibility completely took me off-guard.

Mozaracing.com lists all games at the bottom of the page, which was quite a nice list. It's also an established company but in a different product lines and arguably, they could exit sim racing as quickly as they entered:
"Founded by Automotive engineers and Simracing drivers, Gudsen Moza is a leading innovator in camera stabilization systems (www.gudsen.com) and vehicle stability technology (www.gudsen.ai)."

So, if VRS is not fully supported, Simucube too expensive, Fanatec having product/CS issues, what would you get next?

Thank you!

I agree with everything...
I found this on their site:

" The VRS DirectForce Pro Wheel Base would work with any game that supports DirectInput force feedback devices. We already covered our full firmware settings and recommended iRacing settings in this guide. Here we have compiled a list of suggested VRS Wheel Tool and In-Game settings for various racing sims & games.

All of these settings are personal preferences and may also need to be changed depending on the car/tracks you drive. These are meant to be good starting points, and you may like them “as is”. We will keep this document updated as requests come in for other racing games, as well as additional tips for games we already covered. If you have any suggestions for settings, or would like us to post recommended settings for a game not included here, please send us a message through our contact form.

Table of Contents:

Assetto Corsa (AC) (plug and play)
Assetto Corsa Competizione (ACC) (plug and play)
Automobilista 1 (finicky calibration)
Automobilista 2 (finicky calibration)
Dirt Rally 2.0 (need to replace some game files)
Euro Truck Simulator (plug and play)
F1 2019/2020 (firmware update)
iRacing (plug and play)
Project Cars 2 (finicky calibration)
RaceRoom Racing Experience (need to replace some game files)
rFactor 2 (need to replace some game files)
WRC 9 (registry editor workaround)"

I sadly don't have full knowledge about how things work exactly but from what I know:
" directInput" is part of Windows and has the 3 famous ffb channels:
- main channel
- spring channel
- damper channel

All games work with these and apparently, the VRS DD wheel can work with directInput too.

However you can also directly access the wheelbases without directInput.
But then you need the game to actually have code to know how to communicate with the wheelbase.


I have a friend from UK with an older osw small mige and when we once went through his settings, I could see that the directInput channels were at 0% as they are not needed for most sims.

My guess would be that you could also simply use these channels and have worse, but working ffb.


As I said, I don't really know this! It's just meant for input to get your research forward!
Someone with such a wheel would need to enlighten us...

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Games compatibility for most DD wheels pretty much boils down to whether title supports DirectInput FFB standard or not.

 

[crooksy]

Personally I think we got a little bit carried away with DD wheels chasing torque numbers.

The Barry Moza review highlighted perfectly it's about the clarity and feeling you get from the wheel and what it's telling you rather than the strength.

I've had a V1 AF wheel since launch and sure its had plenty of criticism but once you get it dialed in well (which is possible after lots of setting tweaks) I can't find any reason to upgrade since I can't even manage to set the wheel intensity to 100% without experiencing pain after 5 laps.

That's one thing I do give credit for with the SC software, yes it's a bewildering number of settings that can make the wheel feel terrible but the settings make it extremely configurable more so than many of its rivals.

My current settings for example I am combining the game FFB effect with the Foundation FFB which completely enhances the iRacing FFB. I can completely eliminate that notchy twitchy feeling mid corner but have zero wheel oscillation.

Looking at that Moza review it just wouldn't be possible to do that without some compromise between detail, smoothness or oscillation.

The cloud tuning feature in SC is ok but if you are prepared to spend a lot of time to manually tweak the settings to your liking the AF is a great wheel, especially if you can pick up a used one cheap.

 

[Cubus]

Personally I think we got a little bit carried away with DD wheels chasing torque numbers.

The Barry Moza review highlighted perfectly it's about the clarity and feeling you get from the wheel and what it's telling you rather than the strength.

I've had a V1 AF wheel since launch and sure it's had plenty of criticism but once you get it dialed in well (which is possible after lots of setting tweaks) I can't find any reason to upgrade since I can't even manage to set the wheel intensity to 100% without experiencing pain after 5 laps.

That's one thing I do give credit for with the SC software, yes it's a bewildering number of settings that can make the wheel feel terrible but the settings make it extremely configurable more so than many of its rivals.

My current settings for example I am combining the game FFB effect with the Foundation FFB which completely enhances the iRacing FFB. I can completely eliminate that notchy twitchy feeling mid corner but have zero wheel oscillation. Looking at that Moza review it just wouldn't be possible to do that without some compromise between detail, smoothness or oscillation.

The cloud tuning feature in SC is ok but if you are prepared to spend a lot of time to manually tweak the settings to your liking the AF is a great wheel, especially if you can pick up a used one cheap.

Please excuse me as I'm still new to the topic.

What is the AF wheel?

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Accuforce, it was first commercial DD wheel from SimXperience. Was good for its time, but superseded by other offerings using true servo motors instead of stepper.

 

[crooksy]

Accuforce, it was first commercial DD wheel from SimXperience. Was good for its time, but superseded by other offerings using true servo motors instead of stepper.

It's still good for its time lots of software and effect enhancements since its original launch

One thing the AF still does better than most at same price point is road texture and if you are prepared to delve into the SimXperience eco system with the GS5 seat and G Belt you can really get the wheel to blend in nicely with those other hardware effects.

Would love to see a new AF v3 wheel base with upgraded motor at same price point

 

[782369]

I have a simucube 1 (small mige, 20Nm), works well with all the games i have (acc, ac, rfactor 2, iracing, raceroom, automobilista 2, wreckfest, dirt rally 2.0, beam.ng). In acc i have the simucube software on 100%, in game 45-50%. If you can afford to buy a base that is over 15Nm, do it…i think it’s good to have some headroom.

 

[Cubus]

Hi there,

Thank you all for responses.

I decided to go the Simucube Pro path although it'll be a couple of months of more research and saving.
I've to say that the choice of GT wheels or price points is just so depressing.
In comparison, Moza wheel is so affordable and attractive at $300 bundled.

Does anyone have a suggestion on how to get a nice GT style wheel with functional buttons under $500?

 

[crooksy]

Hi there,

Thank you all for responses.

I decided to go the Simucube Pro path although it'll be a couple of months of more research and saving.
I've to say that the choice of GT wheels or price points is just so depressing.
In comparison, Moza wheel is so affordable and attractive at $300 bundled.

Does anyone have a suggestion on how to get a nice GT style wheel with functional buttons under $500?

Turn Racing Button plate is amazing value and really well made. It has a really wide range of functions and is great for VR since it's easy to find everything. It's on sale now too $247 - $357

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Hi there,

Thank you all for responses.

I decided to go the Simucube Pro path although it'll be a couple of months of more research and saving.
I've to say that the choice of GT wheels or price points is just so depressing.
In comparison, Moza wheel is so affordable and attractive at $300 bundled.

Does anyone have a suggestion on how to get a nice GT style wheel with functional buttons under $500?

Ascher of SimRacingBay. Best price/quality/performance ratio on the market.

Simucube Wireless Steering Wheels - SimRacingBay

www.simracingbay.com

 

[Cubus]

Ordered from Demon Tweaks:
Simucube Pro
Ascher B24L
Quick release
Mounting bracket

Thank you everyone for your guidance through this process.

 

[Cubus]

I'll post my own response to my question here to capture initial impressions for the benefit of future potential readers.

Coming from G27 to Simucube 2 Pro first of all is amazing. Once I figured out how to set parameters, it's a totally different experience.
Not better or worse, as you literally experience different things in my opinion. It's like monitors vs VR of sorts. Comfort and pristine picture vs feeling of sitting in a car.

With G27 ACC is just a racing game, not much different than Horizon Forza in terms of driving experience and ACC being rather dull due to lack of entertaining arcade elements.
With SC2 ACC is a racing simulator, that is somewhat strenuous due to forces and detail I now feel and process in my brain, but of course it's not a driving game but a real driving skill refiner in a way.

Now regarding how much torque is too much.
Thank you to everyone that steered my SC2 path.
Moza 9Nm might be enough to feel more detail but my immersion to a point of exhilaration is around 14 to 16Nm.
I didn't expect that I'd like that but it's that transition from driving to simulating that stimulates my senses differently. I felt some adrenaline going at those higher torque while racing, which is rare for me when I drive on PC.

Finally and off topic. Why on Earth anyone would want to turn off Road Effects. It's done beautifully in ACC and Sc2. I had a chance to drive a Lamborghini once on a racetrack and it's exactly how I remember it...

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Finally and off topic. Why on Earth anyone would want to turn off Road Effects.

I used to use them before 1.8 but since then found them completely redundant as they just adds some artificial buzzing. But if it suits you that all that's matter.

 

[Terry Rock]

To the main question of torque and how much is enough....
I just finally got around to running a few laps with my newly acquired R9 at SPA.
I can tell you that (Nm peak) is sufficient once dialed in properly.
I do not have any of the notchy feel Barry encountered about center either.
The default profile for open-wheelers needed a bit of tweaking out of the box but man is it nice once done.
The road feel through Au Rouge and the subsequent fell attacking the curbing at Kemmel with the McLaren in AMS2....so rewarding and connected.

 

[lovemesomespeed]

There is nothing, it has been discussed before as iRacing is notorious for killing users on crashes (high level of realism ). The only thing you can do is to lower max torque at motor level so it never goes to these dangerous levels.

I’ve been racing iRacing exclusively for two years with an SC2 (on fairly high torque) and I’ve never had any issues (or even scares) with my wrists during crashes. Not sure if it’s the way I’ve configured my settings or what.

 

[lovemesomespeed]

I’ll throw in my two cents for the OP or anyone else reading this in the future…

I upgraded a couple years ago from a Thrustmaster wheel and wheel base - I also never thought I’d need anywhere close to the torque of an SC2, but I listened to everyone else’s advice and bought the SC2 Pro.

I’m sure glad I did… as my rig has progressed, and I’ve added more serious tactile, active harness, etc, my desire to have more torque has increased. When you’re in VR, and your body is shaking as you rev that engine, and you’re going around a high-speed turn in an F1 car at Spa and the belt is cinching down hard on your body, it just doesn’t feel right having light torque on the wheel… it just kills the immersion to have all my other senses telling me “I’m racing at Spa at high speeds” but then have a rinky-dink level of torque. I’ve also got the HE Sprints, and it feels weird now to me to have a super stiff brake pedal (compared to my old Thrustmaster) but have a weak steering wheel torque.

Now - in terms of realism vs immersion… I’ve never driven any of these race cars I’m driving, and probably never will. I don’t know how much torque these cars have and I really don’t care at this point whether or not my torque values match the specific car I’m driving. All I know is I feel much more immersed in the entire experience when I am fighting the wheel around a turn - it increases the adrenaline and the rush.

All that being said, maybe you never end up going that route or enjoying the high torque, but you’ll never know if you don’t try it, and you never know if one day you may slowly creep up the torque scale.

My advice would be buy once, cry once… go for the SC2!

 

[TShrimp]

It's still good for its time lots of software and effect enhancements since its original launch

One thing the AF still does better than most at same price point is road texture and if you are prepared to delve into the SimXperience eco system with the GS5 seat and G Belt you can really get the wheel to blend in nicely with those other hardware effects.

Would love to see a new AF v3 wheel base with upgraded motor at same price point

I would love to see an AF3. I don’t think I can ever give up the Sim Commander software, so until they do this I am not sure I will ever “Upgrade”.

 

[crooksy]

I would love to see an AF3. I don’t think I can ever give up the Sim Commander software, so until they do this I am not sure I will ever “Upgrade”.

Yeah I'm in the same boat. I'm pondering on a Simucube Pro but I have reservations because as you said I like the level of adjustability with SImCommander combined with my GS5 and G Belt and don't like the idea of additional software.

I recently tried a friends Fanatec DD1 and while it was decent overall I really wasn't that impressed with it compared to the AF with a really good custom profile. The strength was good but the detail in road texture was not good.

I've heard great things about the Simucube Pro but my biggest concern is losing some of the road texture detail that I've become accustomed to with the AF.

I'm going to give it 6-12 months before making a final decision in the hope that there's some talk of a V3 materializing.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

GD added some telemetry processing in their ActivePedal and accordingly to Mika (Simucube lead programmer) this will carry over to TD in some future, meanwhile the ideal solution is the suplement of some tactile feedback.

 

[metalnwood]

The truedrive software is required to be running but all it really does is deliver the profile to the firmware. It doesnt do any background processing like simcommander does so its pretty lightweight.

But I gave up thinking about background software ages ago

simhub
crew chief
motion software
truedrive
software for running custom vjoy profiles

whats another piece of software