Have Your Say: Can Women be Competitive in Modern Formula One Racing?
- Thread starter Paul Jeffrey
- Start date
I see absolutely no reason why a woman couldn't be competitive in Formula One if she has been competitive in lower classes and earns her keep. Every other racing series (IndyCar, NASCAR, drag racing) has seen competitive women drivers for many years. I can't say I know if any of them have ever won a race but it should never come as a surprise.
However...........................
With Liberty Media having taken over the sport, there will be a heavier emphasis on the "media" aspect of the events. Lewis Hamilton has always been popular in the media, an example for others to follow in terms of using Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, etc. You have to believe some of his popularity is to do with his good looks. Certain drivers wouldn't have quite the appeal he does, regardless of racing record, if they aren't good looking.
Which brings me to this point. If a woman were to be given a seat on a Formula One team, I would have fears that a large part of it would be associated with her looks and not her performance. It's hard to say, but it's unfortunately very true in so many other aspects of our cultures. Carmen Jorda, Susie Wolf, Simona de Silvestro, Pippa Mann. If they all had identical records, I bet we know who would get the drive.
I'm not saying it's right, just that's how it is sometimes.
However...........................
With Liberty Media having taken over the sport, there will be a heavier emphasis on the "media" aspect of the events. Lewis Hamilton has always been popular in the media, an example for others to follow in terms of using Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, etc. You have to believe some of his popularity is to do with his good looks. Certain drivers wouldn't have quite the appeal he does, regardless of racing record, if they aren't good looking.
Which brings me to this point. If a woman were to be given a seat on a Formula One team, I would have fears that a large part of it would be associated with her looks and not her performance. It's hard to say, but it's unfortunately very true in so many other aspects of our cultures. Carmen Jorda, Susie Wolf, Simona de Silvestro, Pippa Mann. If they all had identical records, I bet we know who would get the drive.
I'm not saying it's right, just that's how it is sometimes.
Is it possible? Yes
Is it going to happen anytime in the near future? I doubt it.
I actually think that Danica Patrick has hurt women in motorsports, more than helped. Her racing resume isn't all that impressive, yet she has remained in high profile series, in teams with the best equipment, and done very little with it. Especially when you compare her to her teammates. She is kept around because she is an attractive female, and that helps her ability to market, and bring money to the team. There are several women with much more impressive resumes in racing, who haven't been given anywhere near the opportunity, or resources that she has.
If a woman is going to crack into F1, and be competitive, its going to have to be done on merit, not looks, marketability, or some silly sense of political correctness. Someone posted a picture of Pastor Maldonado as a reply to some claiming Susie Wolff wasn't fast enough to be promoted by Williams. My answer to that would be how does a female version of Pastor, being given a F1 drive, because they bring a huge amount of funding to the team help the outlook of females in racing? Especially if the women in question performs like Pastor and crashes into everyone. It will only reinforce negative stereotypes, and give credibility to those who say a woman can't be competitive.
If the goal is to get a woman in to F1, I don't think that is all that hard. It could be done with the proper amount of funding. A competitive woman in F1, that is something completely different.
Is it going to happen anytime in the near future? I doubt it.
I actually think that Danica Patrick has hurt women in motorsports, more than helped. Her racing resume isn't all that impressive, yet she has remained in high profile series, in teams with the best equipment, and done very little with it. Especially when you compare her to her teammates. She is kept around because she is an attractive female, and that helps her ability to market, and bring money to the team. There are several women with much more impressive resumes in racing, who haven't been given anywhere near the opportunity, or resources that she has.
If a woman is going to crack into F1, and be competitive, its going to have to be done on merit, not looks, marketability, or some silly sense of political correctness. Someone posted a picture of Pastor Maldonado as a reply to some claiming Susie Wolff wasn't fast enough to be promoted by Williams. My answer to that would be how does a female version of Pastor, being given a F1 drive, because they bring a huge amount of funding to the team help the outlook of females in racing? Especially if the women in question performs like Pastor and crashes into everyone. It will only reinforce negative stereotypes, and give credibility to those who say a woman can't be competitive.
If the goal is to get a woman in to F1, I don't think that is all that hard. It could be done with the proper amount of funding. A competitive woman in F1, that is something completely different.
MoerasGrizzly
Premium
Have the names Amy Ruman and Michelle Mouton been mentioned yet? Amy Ruman won two back to back Transam championships, which are 900 BHP cars without any technology whatsoever (IIRC, they don't even have power steering!) on America's rather daunting road tracks (no tarmac runoff on those things either). Michelle Mouton smashed the Pikes Peak record with the famous Group B Audi Quattro Pikes Peak, and she would have won the 1982 WRC against Walter Röhrl if her father hadn't died during the middle of the championship. Although I doubt that Michelle Mouton would be competetive in an F1 car now, for obvious reasons (she only ever races Group B cars, even today, and she's a bit older now), the question whether women can compete at the top levels of motorsport has already been answered: Yes.
ThatRacingGuy
I drove 88 MPH last night... weird stuff happened
Ms Jorda can be competitive, but not on the track 
(JK of course)
(JK of course)
Lance isn't COMPETITIVE.I believe Lance Stroll has shown us it is possible...with the correct amount of money.
not unless they're very attractive.
if they earn the spot, i don't see why not. as long as its purely 'skill-based' and not for marketing purposes or to attract a certain demographic. i don't really care if the sport wants to promote their new talent as the FIRST colour-blind, trans-gendered, tri-racial, albino, dwarf w/ a cleft palate and webbed hands just for the sake of 'breaking that glass ceiling', when he/she drives like ****.
if they earn the spot, i don't see why not. as long as its purely 'skill-based' and not for marketing purposes or to attract a certain demographic. i don't really care if the sport wants to promote their new talent as the FIRST colour-blind, trans-gendered, tri-racial, albino, dwarf w/ a cleft palate and webbed hands just for the sake of 'breaking that glass ceiling', when he/she drives like ****.
Interesting, and in the world of fighter plane pilots how many were women and where did they rank amongst all the other men?
Men have a biological advantage in pure physical strength compared to women. I´m not saying women and men should be treated unequally, but from a biological standpoint men and women are simply not the same. That´s why in football etc. women and men are seperated. Dzsenifer Marozsan is a great player, she would absolutely destroy me and all my friends in a football match all by herself. Yet it would be unfair to compare her to Cristiano Ronaldo. Motorsport is both a physical and very technical sport, so the disadvantage may not be too big compared to other sports. Just look at Susie Wolff or Carmen Jorda, they were not terrible, they were simply not as quick as their fellow male competitors. Only few were really competitive (e.g. Ellen Lohr the only woman to win a DTM race). A female racing league would therefore only be logical, especially with the new physically demanding 2017 F1 cars. Sadly there are not enough women interested in motorsport for that to work out, but the whole D2BD campaign is a great step to change that!
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Deleted member 130869
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Deleted member 130869
Women can certainly be competitive in F1, there just needs to be a talented girl to make through the racing ranks. I don't believe there's anything biological preventing them from having the quickness of reflexes and, excluding the G's for the neck, there is no immense body strain like there was in cars up through the early 1990's to rule them out on a physical strength perspective.
No it won't, I have faith in our community to respond maturely and in a sensible fashion
A little *Thank you all* for keeping this thread * clean * . I luv it folks.
Paul, I feel your question was very specific and very bold. Thanks again for being out front with sensitive topics. Open discussion is never bad as long as you argue issues.
Some wonderful responses too. Overall, I'm really impressed with the acceptance of your idea and the rejection that "can they?" has *zero* to do with the physical demands of the sport. In fact, as someone pointed out earlier, the U.S. Air Force has long known that that women are actually superior to men in many key areas, such as concentration, reaction time, and weight (for racing). The United States Army Air Corps had graduated their first class of female pilots in April 1943 under wartime conditions, from a Harry Truman directive. And they have thrived every since. The problem with female advancement in an area where they clearly excel (flying fighter jets) was not due the females, but the males. They were harassed, raped, molested, belittled, and sometimes prosecuted because they had affairs with men (who, to be fair, were also prosecuted at times). F1 is possibly (outside of Asia and the Middle East, which are much more patriarchal than the West) the worst example of gender discrimination in racing. So, your question Paul, I suspect was directed there because of this? Or maybe because of its popularity? In any case, F1 will be the last to change...partially because of the previous elitist structure who discriminated against almost every class of person who was not either famous, royalty, a token, or rich. Just my opinion. My experience at Spa in 2009 and any IndyCar, NASCAR, or IMSA race could not have been more different if you extract the racing itself. So, yes, it will change slowly, like everything must, hopefully for the better, but don't look to F1 to be a leader in this area, as they are hamstrung from years of elitism. As for the Government idea, Reagan had it right. The nine scariest words in the English language are "I'm from the Government, and I'm here to help."
I have interviewed Danica Patrick, I have spoken with Katherine Legge briefly at Road America, and I watched Simona race also. Trying to pigeon hole these individuals into a category ("women") is anatomically right, but entirely misses the core strength of what society should be all about -- the Individual.
The looks issue goes both ways, so let's just dispense with that notion, since it's human nature. My wife, for instance, watches more F1 that I do (except for the race) because she considers Fernando Alonso the best looking man in the world, with the sexiest accent in the world. And my wife has an American southern accent, but was born to Korean parents in Seoul. She has an automatic "free pass" with Fernando, like I do with Nicole Kidman, should we ever meet. I drooled, like most men, over Danica's S.I. photo-shoot and thought "man I'd like to tag that." So what? That's just normal. But I didn't follow Danica (in IndyCar) solely because of her looks. She was damn good. And still is. But sadly, some of her advantages (weight, lean muscle and fiery grit) also hurt her at times. But I loved the fact that she never apologized for her looks. She marketed them and took advantage of them, as every individual has a right to do. But what most don't realize is that she is tiny. Like 4'11" tiny. And since she's fit, she looks like even tinier. That's great for weight balance (IndyCar does not count the driver, so less is more) but she clearly struggled on in IndyCar on very demanding high speed American road courses (F1 road courses are less demanding physically, in the same car). This is one reason she went to NASCAR, where she is a token, but seemingly happy. NASCAR is second only to F1 in being unfriendly to women, IMO.
Katherine and Simona. Not as good looking on camera, but much more talented open wheel drivers IMO, than Danica. Especially Simona, but Katherine can driver the wheels off of anything and either can beat any man, given a fair shot. The racing community, especially here, understands this. I agree with the previous posts that argue women should have *zero* barriers to being a full and equal force in all forms of racing. There is no credible argument to the contrary, IMO. However, like any field, changing the demographics does not happen overnight, but *will* happen if you open your mind up and look at the massive advantages available to the sport we love if women are in the mix as much as men.
Grid boys? They make me puke personally, but how can I in good conscience argue against them if the demographics of racing fans becomes less male dominated...which will change (certainly) if more females are rightly promoted and given the same changes. Because if you ever get the formula right now (hot woman / fast woman / funded woman) you get a winning driver and the ability to print your own money. And it's not that hard to find if you want to look for it.
Many men in open wheel racing, if you see them live, look like women, or boys. The are very small, very thin, very well groomed, and very young. Throwbacks like A.J. Foyt and Dick Trickle are gone. Now, it's hard to determine gender sometimes. Indy 500 driver Zack Veach?
F1 driver Pascal Wehrlein?:
I'm the least politically correct person you will meet, but this is not a political issue. It is simply cultural. Therefore, attitudes must change, but not by force. As for me, if they are all going to become males that look like girls, I'd actually rather watch young women there too at 50% levels.
Some wonderful responses too. Overall, I'm really impressed with the acceptance of your idea and the rejection that "can they?" has *zero* to do with the physical demands of the sport. In fact, as someone pointed out earlier, the U.S. Air Force has long known that that women are actually superior to men in many key areas, such as concentration, reaction time, and weight (for racing). The United States Army Air Corps had graduated their first class of female pilots in April 1943 under wartime conditions, from a Harry Truman directive. And they have thrived every since. The problem with female advancement in an area where they clearly excel (flying fighter jets) was not due the females, but the males. They were harassed, raped, molested, belittled, and sometimes prosecuted because they had affairs with men (who, to be fair, were also prosecuted at times). F1 is possibly (outside of Asia and the Middle East, which are much more patriarchal than the West) the worst example of gender discrimination in racing. So, your question Paul, I suspect was directed there because of this? Or maybe because of its popularity? In any case, F1 will be the last to change...partially because of the previous elitist structure who discriminated against almost every class of person who was not either famous, royalty, a token, or rich. Just my opinion. My experience at Spa in 2009 and any IndyCar, NASCAR, or IMSA race could not have been more different if you extract the racing itself. So, yes, it will change slowly, like everything must, hopefully for the better, but don't look to F1 to be a leader in this area, as they are hamstrung from years of elitism. As for the Government idea, Reagan had it right. The nine scariest words in the English language are "I'm from the Government, and I'm here to help."
I have interviewed Danica Patrick, I have spoken with Katherine Legge briefly at Road America, and I watched Simona race also. Trying to pigeon hole these individuals into a category ("women") is anatomically right, but entirely misses the core strength of what society should be all about -- the Individual.
The looks issue goes both ways, so let's just dispense with that notion, since it's human nature. My wife, for instance, watches more F1 that I do (except for the race) because she considers Fernando Alonso the best looking man in the world, with the sexiest accent in the world. And my wife has an American southern accent, but was born to Korean parents in Seoul. She has an automatic "free pass" with Fernando, like I do with Nicole Kidman, should we ever meet.
I drooled, like most men, over Danica's S.I. photo-shoot and thought "man I'd like to tag that." So what? That's just normal. But I didn't follow Danica (in IndyCar) solely because of her looks. She was damn good. And still is. But sadly, some of her advantages (weight, lean muscle and fiery grit) also hurt her at times. But I loved the fact that she never apologized for her looks. She marketed them and took advantage of them, as every individual has a right to do. But what most don't realize is that she is tiny. Like 4'11" tiny. And since she's fit, she looks like even tinier. That's great for weight balance (IndyCar does not count the driver, so less is more) but she clearly struggled on in IndyCar on very demanding high speed American road courses (F1 road courses are less demanding physically, in the same car). This is one reason she went to NASCAR, where she is a token, but seemingly happy. NASCAR is second only to F1 in being unfriendly to women, IMO.Katherine and Simona. Not as good looking on camera, but much more talented open wheel drivers IMO, than Danica. Especially Simona, but Katherine can driver the wheels off of anything and either can beat any man, given a fair shot. The racing community, especially here, understands this. I agree with the previous posts that argue women should have *zero* barriers to being a full and equal force in all forms of racing. There is no credible argument to the contrary, IMO. However, like any field, changing the demographics does not happen overnight, but *will* happen if you open your mind up and look at the massive advantages available to the sport we love if women are in the mix as much as men.
Grid boys? They make me puke personally, but how can I in good conscience argue against them if the demographics of racing fans becomes less male dominated...which will change (certainly) if more females are rightly promoted and given the same changes. Because if you ever get the formula right now (hot woman / fast woman / funded woman) you get a winning driver and the ability to print your own money. And it's not that hard to find if you want to look for it.
Many men in open wheel racing, if you see them live, look like women, or boys. The are very small, very thin, very well groomed, and very young. Throwbacks like A.J. Foyt and Dick Trickle are gone. Now, it's hard to determine gender sometimes. Indy 500 driver Zack Veach?
F1 driver Pascal Wehrlein?:
I'm the least politically correct person you will meet, but this is not a political issue. It is simply cultural. Therefore, attitudes must change, but not by force. As for me, if they are all going to become males that look like girls, I'd actually rather watch young women there too at 50% levels.
imo its possible but will always remain unlikely. i think gaming will do a lot to at least increase the odds; at some point in the not too distant future i think simracing as we know it today will be an option for anyone interested enough to pony up a couple hundred bucks for a toy wheel. the pool will still be absolutely dominated by males, but...its a much bigger pool.
while we wait chess is the place to look, i think. i might go into my reasons later, but they're obvious, intricate & haphazard guesswork all at once, so it'd take awhile to cobble anything that MIGHT be comprehensible together. and i haven't actually investigated it thoroughly myself, but my impression is that the big picture really doesn't look good. a seat in F1 will eventually be occupied by a woman, but a truly competitive woman in F1 will take a phenom. imo.
while we wait chess is the place to look, i think. i might go into my reasons later, but they're obvious, intricate & haphazard guesswork all at once, so it'd take awhile to cobble anything that MIGHT be comprehensible together. and i haven't actually investigated it thoroughly myself, but my impression is that the big picture really doesn't look good. a seat in F1 will eventually be occupied by a woman, but a truly competitive woman in F1 will take a phenom. imo.
They can, but I believe that those who have trying to get to F1 are not good enough (just like so many men are not good enough)
Mouton in particular is imo the best proof that women can reach the top of motorsport. WRC in the Group B era was arguably tougher physically than any motorsport series today. I can't imagine how hard it must have been to drive 12 hours a day for a weekend with those powerful beasts without power steering. Mouton did and was on par if not above his male competitors.
Physicality of the sport is no problem for women, the numbers just are against them at the moment. When there are 100 young men coming through for every young women it is just so much more likely that there are better men available. Just like one's more likely to find the next Hamilton/Verstappen/insert-your-favourite-driver-here from countries with long motorsport tradition than from countries where motorsport isn't as big and popular sport.
James Cook
Marcas fan
There's a physicality aspect to Formula One that perhaps puts women at a slight disadvantage compared to, for instance, touring car racing which puts lesser demands on the body.
Apart from that there are no other reasons why men and women cannot compete evenly at all levels of motorsport. As with male drivers, female drivers should be there on merit rather than to tick boxes or for cynical marketing opportunities (Carmen Jorda).
Apart from that there are no other reasons why men and women cannot compete evenly at all levels of motorsport. As with male drivers, female drivers should be there on merit rather than to tick boxes or for cynical marketing opportunities (Carmen Jorda).
Men have (normally) higher risk/reward thinking/behavior possibly coming from a combination of testosterone and the fact that we cant get pregnant. At least its what ive read from science. Boys/men are usually crazier and take more chances. Combine it with more upper body strength and you create good skill for racing. Im sure we will see more women in racing though in the future. Their talent/record will have to speak for itself on how good they are compared to men in racing.
Hollywood is good though on giving us the image of women being stronger and better than men, so... Who knows.
Hollywood is good though on giving us the image of women being stronger and better than men, so... Who knows.
