Have Your Say: Acceptable Risk or Dangerous Liability? The Isle of Man TT

[Jan Larsen]

by enforcing drink drive limits (zero tolerance in Scotland), by punishing speeding and other forms of dangerous driving

Unlike seatbelts, these things DOES affect other people and should be lawed against.

you're en-enforcing in society that when you're driving, what you're doing is inherently dangerous, and very often, it can be more dangerous to others outside your car. If you encourage that train of thought at every opportunity, you'll improve safety in almost immeasurable ways.

I cant deny the truthness in that, but if people dosent realize that driving is inherently dangerous (for obvious reasons) then they dont deserve their license. It should be unnessesary to educate people into thinking that. Use your fuc.... common sense.

 

[Akra]

Unlike seatbelts, these things DOES affect other people and should be lawed against.

I cant deny the truthness in that, but if people dosent realize that driving is inherently dangerous (for obvious reasons) then they dont deserve their license. It should be unnessesary to educate people into thinking that. Use your fuc.... common sense.

You're right, but you can't test for common sense (or the realisation that driving is dangerous) during the tests, so it's just something that has to accounted for in safety laws.

Not wearing a hard had on a building site or oil rig will also never hurt anyone but the wearer. But these sites (rigs especially) try to ingrain a safety culture into the workers to try and avoid incidents that may involve others. If you wear a hard hat, gloves and all the rest of your PPE, you might be slightly more cautious, and save a life without even knowing it.

Same logic with seat belts. It's completely open to debate if it works, but that's the reason it's there. Because it helps enforce the idea that driving is dangerous, and safety precautions should be taken.

 

[mrbungle83]

Erm yes we understand how dangerous it is, but stating how other things are dangerous too, %s are meaningless if EVERY life is precious, as long as ONE person dies then it's a tragedy. But it's all about CHOICE and I think that is something you don't comprehend much at all. People do risky things ALL the time, why pick on one? You can't can't just pick some arbitrary "acceptable death rate" and say one is better than another.

An acceptable death rate is 0 lots of sports need looking at if there putting you at risk of death, football probably extends life expectancy. The risk has to be so low.

 

[Damage Inc]

If you're oblivious to the fact that seatbelts saves lives, you shouldnt be allowed to drive. It proves you're so stupid you'd struggle to breath and stand upright at the same time.
As you say, TT racers know the risks which is why they dont need some political idiot to tell them its a bad idea.

I sincerely hope this wasn't aimed at me, because WUT? At no point did I say anything along the lines of what you're having a paddy over. I KNOW seatbelts save lives but the choice in having to wear a seatbelt is nothing like the choice a TT racer makes.

 

[Damage Inc]

An acceptable death rate is 0 lots of sports need looking at if there putting you at risk of death, football probably extends life expectancy. The risk has to be so low.

But if the only acceptable death rate is 0 then football fails as well, that was my point. So we have NO sports just because someone "may" have an undiagnosed dicky ticker and physical exertion WILL kill them.

see?

TT racers knows the risk, some poor lad (It happened to Terry Yorath's young lad ) dropping dead has no choice and no chance.

 

[Jan Larsen]

I sincerely hope this wasn't aimed at me, because WUT? At no point did I say anything along the lines of what you're having a paddy over. I KNOW seatbelts save lives but the choice in having to wear a seatbelt is nothing like the choice a TT racer makes.

Not at all, 'you' wasnt meant as you, but as everyone

 

[Erwin Greven]

You are one these people that don't just understand. You never will.

So if i am correct anyone who votes for a ban simply doesn't understand.

 

[mrbungle83]

But if the only acceptable death rate is 0 then football fails as well, that was my point. So we have NO sports just because someone "may" have an undiagnosed dicky ticker and physical exertion WILL kill them.

see?

TT racers knows the risk, some poor lad (It happened to Terry Yorath's young lad ) dropping dead has no choice and no chance.

I also said that Football amongst other sports generally improve life expectancy, fitness is generally a good thing and highly recommended... Buying a bike, filling in a form and seeing that as a licence to be a driving god is so different i think you're argument is weak. You also forget that other people's lifes other than there own can be put at risk.

Speak to car drivers and you will find lots of them think they can drive fast, people are deluded. If i was 18 and has my chance of a fully blown race at Spa i'd probably at that time believe i was proficient, when in reality i would have been a danger.

People and there grandiose illusions of themselves are a problem, im beginning to think that some people's brains don't develop when it comes to danger. Every day on the motorway i see tailgating at 80+ mph. These people are allowed to partake in the TT if they can Ride.

I respect there bravery but loathe there stupidity. (not talking about all Riders)

 

[Damage Inc]

I also said that Football amongst other sports generally improve life expectancy, fitness is generally a good thing and highly recommended... Buying a bike, filling in a form and seeing that as a licence to be a driving god is so different i think you're argument is weak. You also forget that other people's lifes other than there own can be put at risk.

Speak to car drivers and you will find lots of them think they can drive fast, people are deluded. If i was 18 and has my chance of a fully blown race at Spa i'd probably at that time believe i was proficient, when in reality i would have been a danger.

People and there grandiose illusions of themselves are a problem, im beginning to think that some people's brains don't develop when it comes to danger. Every day on the motorway i see tailgating at 80+ mph. These people are allowed to partake in the TT if they can Ride.

I respect there bravery but loathe there stupidity. (not talking about all Riders)

Yes but we're discussing the "dangers" of a sport to someone's life and what arbitrary number is ok for you and the others who voted the TT should be banned. If we ban the TT then we ban ALL sport to be fair. To just ban one is unfair.

Filing in what form? What about the license test? I know it's FAR from perfect but no-one can just buy a bike and get on it. Also bikes are restricted in performance for learners...something car drivers DON'T get. So what is your point about bikers? Sensing some anti bike bias here.

So we need to ban all road vehicles then? Seriously WHAT is the answer which is equal and fair to everyone?

Regarding tailgating, IF the vehicle in front CAN pull over they are part of the problem and not innocent parties. From my perspective of being an ex-biker and a car driver if I see a faster vehicle coming up behind I let them go (never happened as a biker and happens all the time in my car), it's a special kind of dick that decides to play law enforcement and slow them down by hogging the outside lane for no good reason. In fact I rank lane hogging as FAR worse than tailgating, because hogging CAUSES tailgating.

And if I'm honest I see a million % more Hogging than tailgaiting, some drivers (and it's 100% 4 wheels or more who do this) have no idea what the inside lane is for when it's empty. Stiff necked feckwits the lot of em..and "they" also think they're gods gift to safety and driving...hah.

 

[Damage Inc]

I'll add that I am only talking about the higher level bikers and the TT, pro's and semi pro's. I do think the issue of complete amateurs being allowed to race could be looked at with some sort of organised tutoring and minimum standard to be allowed to compete (if this all already exist then I see no problem with amateurs racing).

 

[Akra]

I'll add that I am only talking about the higher level bikers and the TT, pro's and semi pro's. I do think the issue of complete amateurs being allowed to race could be looked at with some sort of organised tutoring and minimum standard to be allowed to compete (if this all already exist then I see no problem with amateurs racing).

Isn't this what racing licenses is for?

 

[mrbungle83]

Yes but we're discussing the "dangers" of a sport to someone's life and what arbitrary number is ok for you and the others who voted the TT should be banned. If we ban the TT then we ban ALL sport to be fair. To just ban one is unfair.

Filing in what form? What about the license test? I know it's FAR from perfect but no-one can just buy a bike and get on it. Also bikes are restricted in performance for learners...something car drivers DON'T get. So what is your point about bikers? Sensing some anti bike bias here.

So we need to ban all road vehicles then? Seriously WHAT is the answer which is equal and fair to everyone?

Regarding tailgating, IF the vehicle in front CAN pull over they are part of the problem and not innocent parties. From my perspective of being an ex-biker and a car driver if I see a faster vehicle coming up behind I let them go (never happened as a biker and happens all the time in my car), it's a special kind of dick that decides to play law enforcement and slow them down by hogging the outside lane for no good reason. In fact I rank lane hogging as FAR worse than tailgating, because hogging CAUSES tailgating.

And if I'm honest I see a million % more Hogging than tailgaiting, some drivers (and it's 100% 4 wheels or more who do this) have no idea what the inside lane is for when it's empty. Stiff necked feckwits the lot of em..and "they" also think they're gods gift to safety and driving...hah.

Lol i stopped reading after first paragraph. Maybe a good Judge would be... If every time a game of football was played, one of the plyers dropped dead. Going by your logic. Sometime you cant put a number on it. Just is it to friggin dangerous? Do you think footballers are overly at risk?

 

[mrbungle83]

I respect your opinions, i dont think anybody will ever change anyones minds on a forum. I staunchly disagree, i find the death toll scary and if anyone i know wanted to do it i would be terrified for them. That wont change for me, for anyone who doesn't see it that way, i doubt id convince you. Infact i know i wouldn't be able to. So this is hardly a debate its just people expressing there opinions. I think i have had enough with this one.

 

[mrbungle83]

Ok so i decided i would be fair and read the rest of your post but i just cant not respond, lane hogging... At 80+ mph where does that happen? Germany maybe? If you dont think Tailgating is unsafe you need to put your TT application form in the bin, and your license. i could be giving you the most important advice you will ever receive. Slow the F down, chill your bones live a Long and happy life and do loads of sex, get your speed kicks from your virtual world. Lane hogging is under the speed limit btw.

 

[Erwin Greven]

Racing at the TT Isle of Man is done by a different breed of riders. They accept that there are 2 or 3 fatalities every year.
Some mourn about it, riders or fans, some simply do a nod and go further. I am one of the latter ones. I stopped thinking that it is a terrible event when a rider gets killed at the TT. Deaths like Simoncelli in MotoGp or Simonsen at Le Mans hit me more. That a Dutch rider was killed at the TT i just looked at it as another information.

btw: this is the last contribution i will give at this forum. I will leave this forum.

 

[Damage Inc]

Isn't this what racing licenses is for?

Mr Bungle seemed to be referring to complete amateurs who are allowed to "race" the TT course. Which of course is a different kettle of fish to what I think everyone else is talking about....but I could be wrong.

 

[Rupe Wilson]

I'll add that I am only talking about the higher level bikers and the TT, pro's and semi pro's. I do think the issue of complete amateurs being allowed to race could be looked at with some sort of organised tutoring and minimum standard to be allowed to compete (if this all already exist then I see no problem with amateurs racing).

The new guys entering the TT get taught by ex riders, (one of them won the TT,) who take them out and show them the ropes, they even have cars and your buses for them, to show each corner and explain track positions , its way more than a track day tutorial. they wear orange bids so they can be seen by the fast guys, i think there are certain rules to enter, you cant just turn up and race per say...

 

[Damage Inc]

Lol i stopped reading after first paragraph. Maybe a good Judge would be... If every time a game of football was played, one of the plyers dropped dead. Going by your logic. Sometime you cant put a number on it. Just is it to friggin dangerous? Do you think footballers are overly at risk?

So yes you are making up an arbitrary amount of deaths before you think something should be banned.

I respect your opinions, i dont think anybody will ever change anyones minds on a forum. I staunchly disagree, i find the death toll scary and if anyone i know wanted to do it i would be terrified for them. That wont change for me, for anyone who doesn't see it that way, i doubt id convince you. Infact i know i wouldn't be able to. So this is hardly a debate its just people expressing there opinions. I think i have had enough with this one.

I like a good "debate" and can get a bit involved discussing things. I'm incredibly logical, If enough logical evidence is presented to me I'll change my mind. If all I get is illogical (emotional) response then that never sways me. Sorry but that's the way I tick.

Ok so i decided i would be fair and read the rest of your post but i just cant not respond, lane hogging... At 80+ mph where does that happen? Germany maybe? If you dont think Tailgating is unsafe you need to put your TT application form in the bin, and your license. i could be giving you the most important advice you will ever receive. Slow the F down, chill your bones live a Long and happy life and do loads of sex, get your speed kicks from your virtual world. Lane hogging is under the speed limit btw.

In the UK MANY people lane hog over the speed limit, lane hogging is at ANY speed when the inside lane is clear and a faster vehicle is behind. I never said tailgating was unsafe, I stated that if the inside lane was clear then the vehicle in front should MOVE over. To not do so is indicative of VERY poor driving standards IMO, Especially regarding situational awareness and concentration (which IMO are two factors
worse than speeding), some people seem to take pleasure in holding other people up which is IMO dick behaviour. Either way hoggers are COMPLICIT in the whole Tailgating thing and not "victims" (as they too often make out).

I have no desire to enter the TT so don't know where that came from in your post! I used to speed on my bike but let me tell you one thing for a fact a biker going fast is never complacent because the feeling of speed is visceral. You are fully aware the speed is fast and concentration goes through the roof, yes it was exhilarating and yes wrong in the eyes of the law, but I never caused an accident and was always courteous and never ever tail gated at high speeds, always left huge gaps. I admit I tail gated drivers who showed a lack of ability to use their mirrors and move over into an empty lane, but only after they'd done it for a while. A friend of mine test drove a merc a few years back and commented how 140 mph seemed like 70mph...that to me is FAR more dangerous, because the mind will relax when it NEEDS to be fully alert. That'd never happen on a bike. Also if a biker mucks up at high speed it is far more likely that the only injured (or worse) party will be the biker. Whereas in a car accident there's a strong chance (especially with passengers) that other people will be injured (or worse)

Havn't ridden since 2003 and I see FAR more crappy useless road use from fellow car drivers than I do with bikes. And I truly think that riding exclusively (only passed car test in 2004, bike test in 1991) for 10+years has made me a MUCH better road user. Being a biker teaches you FAR more about situational awareness and concentration than being a car driver. Many car drivers seem to be in a bubble of their own world, and seem incapable of using mirrors and indicators.

 

[Damage Inc]

The new guys entering the TT get taught by ex riders, (one of them won the TT,) who take them out and show them the ropes, they even have cars and your buses for them, to show each corner and explain track positions , its way more than a track day tutorial. they wear orange bids so they can be seen by the fast guys, i think there are certain rules to enter, you cant just turn up and race per say...

Thanks for the heads up, Mr Bungle will hopefully read this and realise it's not as bad as he thinks.

 

[Andy_J]

Thanks for the heads up, Mr Bungle will hopefully read this and realise it's not as bad as he thinks.

Somehow I doubt that.

Oh and Damage............I totally agree with you about bikers and their much better ability at staying safe and alive on the British roads.
I have been riding bikes since 1980 and over the years I have developed road skills that car drivers (who have never been bikers) can't even imagine. Remember, we don't put lipstick on, we don't pick up mobile phones and we don't change the CD or twiddle with our knobs whilst riding.

I have also noticed that when riding hard and fast my concentration and awareness is so increased that my mind forgets all about lifes' problems totally. It is extremely relaxing for me and it is why I love riding so much. Hard to explain really. Riding on the track is even more mind absorbing because the speed and the risk increases. I often find I am mentally as well as physically exhausted after an hour on track. Cadwell Park is extremely tiring to keep going fast and safe as is Oulton Park and Mallory Park.
And Rupe is right about new racers to the Isle of Man TT. They do go through a newcomers training regime. Many have already competed in the lesser known Manx GP and learnt the track that way. And believe it or not, many use the Playstation 2 and the TT superbikes game to learn the track. I know this because I have spoken with a few of them.