AC GT3 @ Nordschleife, Sunday 16th May 2021

[HF2000]

I can learn the first 1/4 of the track, then I learn the second 1/4 of the track, then I forget the first 1/4 of the track, so I re-learn the first 1/4 of the track, but now I have forgotten the second 1/4 of the track...........
You can guess where this is going.

Well, Ernie. I'm sorry to inform you that you will have a bad year coming as I'm really determined to organize events with @Fat-Alfie 's tracks in the near future. So don't wait too long with practicing Fonteny!

(the normal layout and the reverse one ).

 

[Fat-Alfie]

Bremgarten will be ready soon, and that's only 7.3 km long

 

[Luca Badin]

Hi Luca, thanks for thinking with me. Really appreciate it

No worries, I'm just trying to think ahead and two minds think better than one

Some weeks ago I did a 1 1/2 hour GT2 race on this lay out with 12 participants (invitation from another community) and I don't remember this being a problem. Damage percentage was 70% so maybe that was the reason everyone was careful. I will try it with AI.

I have done quite a few AI races on this version, even with big VLN/NLS style big mixed grids, and it's not a good representation because some cars always seem to bog down quite a bit at the start, and inevitably some AI car will try a stupid move at Hohenrain and send another into the wall, possibly causing a pileup.

But don't you think that a rolling start at start/finish will give the same problem in Castrol S? I did an experiment with a rolling start a couple of weeks ago on Zandvoort but with a gentleman's agreement not to overtake before or in turn 1.

I think it would be mitigated because Castrol S is way broader than Hohenrain and has way more runoff. Specifically, what points me towards a rolling start on the pit straight is:

- It's very dangerous to go side by side through Tiergarten, because there's only one line between the exit of Tiergarten and the entry of Hohenrain, since you have to move over to the left after the second curb at Tiergarten to hit the proper braking marker - also, braking for Hohenrain for the people on the right hand side would be very very tricky;

- That bit of track is also very narrow and the grassy runoff also narrows quite a bit; also, there's hardly any runoff if you go straight at Hohenrain, so you're going to get bounced back right on the track. (Specifically, the Döttinger Höhe is 12m wide, the exit of Antoniusbuche is already 9m wide, and between Tiergarten and Hohenrain it gets down to just 7m with minimal grass runoff);

- At the same time, if we forbid overtakes before the Castrol S without also enforcing a proper formation, then we'll likely get a single file formation out of Hohenrain and it would be very difficult to overtake into Castrol S without sending it. Also, if someone bogs down at the start, everyone directly behind is penalised since you can't overtake them


Therefore, my suggestion is to go 50/60/80 km/h, side by side and with no overtaking, until Hohenrain. Essentially, no full throttle until after the apex of Hohenrain (accelerate normally for the start/finish straight), but with the understanding that people are supposed to still give room to be side by side.

I've tried to annotate my thought process in this image: racing line in white, narrowest point in red, approx. proposed full throttle point in green:

Hopefully some of this made sense.

 

[HF2000]

No worries, I'm just trying to think ahead and two minds think better than one


I have done quite a few AI races on this version, even with big VLN/NLS style big mixed grids, and it's not a good representation because some cars always seem to bog down quite a bit at the start, and inevitably some AI car will try a stupid move at Hohenrain and send another into the wall, possibly causing a pileup.


I think it would be mitigated because Castrol S is way broader than Hohenrain and has way more runoff. Specifically, what points me towards a rolling start on the pit straight is:

- It's very dangerous to go side by side through Tiergarten, because there's only one line between the exit of Tiergarten and the entry of Hohenrain, since you have to move over to the left after the second curb at Tiergarten to hit the proper braking marker - also, braking for Hohenrain for the people on the right hand side would be very very tricky;

- That bit of track is also very narrow and the grassy runoff also narrows quite a bit; also, there's hardly any runoff if you go straight at Hohenrain, so you're going to get bounced back right on the track. (Specifically, the Döttinger Höhe is 12m wide, the exit of Antoniusbuche is already 9m wide, and between Tiergarten and Hohenrain it gets down to just 7m with minimal grass runoff);

- At the same time, if we forbid overtakes before the Castrol S without also enforcing a proper formation, then we'll likely get a single file formation out of Hohenrain and it would be very difficult to overtake into Castrol S without sending it. Also, if someone bogs down at the start, everyone directly behind is penalised since you can't overtake them


Therefore, my suggestion is to go 50/60/80 km/h, side by side and with no overtaking, until Hohenrain. Essentially, no full throttle until after the apex of Hohenrain (accelerate normally for the start/finish straight), but with the understanding that people are supposed to still give room to be side by side.

I've tried to annotate my thought process in this image: racing line in white, narrowest point in red, approx. proposed full throttle point in green:

View attachment 466193

Hopefully some of this made sense.

Thanks, Luca. As you said, communication is the key here because it has to be done by gentleman's agreement. Not everyone reads this thread and also not everyone is on Discord so it's hard to reach every participant.

With my first multiclass race I put a lot of effort to communicate the qualification split. But there was still an Italian who missed it and stayed on track in the wrong time frame. Chris could ban him in qually because he was waiting in the pits himself but we can't do that in the race if someone (or more) start racing after the lights go out.

So it's quite a dilemma, as you will understand.

 

[HF2000]

No worries, I'm just trying to think ahead and two minds think better than one


I have done quite a few AI races on this version, even with big VLN/NLS style big mixed grids, and it's not a good representation because some cars always seem to bog down quite a bit at the start, and inevitably some AI car will try a stupid move at Hohenrain and send another into the wall, possibly causing a pileup.


I think it would be mitigated because Castrol S is way broader than Hohenrain and has way more runoff. Specifically, what points me towards a rolling start on the pit straight is:

- It's very dangerous to go side by side through Tiergarten, because there's only one line between the exit of Tiergarten and the entry of Hohenrain, since you have to move over to the left after the second curb at Tiergarten to hit the proper braking marker - also, braking for Hohenrain for the people on the right hand side would be very very tricky;

- That bit of track is also very narrow and the grassy runoff also narrows quite a bit; also, there's hardly any runoff if you go straight at Hohenrain, so you're going to get bounced back right on the track. (Specifically, the Döttinger Höhe is 12m wide, the exit of Antoniusbuche is already 9m wide, and between Tiergarten and Hohenrain it gets down to just 7m with minimal grass runoff);

- At the same time, if we forbid overtakes before the Castrol S without also enforcing a proper formation, then we'll likely get a single file formation out of Hohenrain and it would be very difficult to overtake into Castrol S without sending it. Also, if someone bogs down at the start, everyone directly behind is penalised since you can't overtake them


Therefore, my suggestion is to go 50/60/80 km/h, side by side and with no overtaking, until Hohenrain. Essentially, no full throttle until after the apex of Hohenrain (accelerate normally for the start/finish straight), but with the understanding that people are supposed to still give room to be side by side.

I've tried to annotate my thought process in this image: racing line in white, narrowest point in red, approx. proposed full throttle point in green:

View attachment 466193

Hopefully some of this made sense.

Hi Luca.

I gave it a try with AI and it ended in a mess in Tiergarten as you predicted.

If we have less than 25 participants, I can switch to the layout with 24 spots. The start is than as normal on the start/finish straight.

If not I will announce a rolling start where the leader sets the pace and decides where to accelerate to race pace. Overtaking is only allowed after the start / finish line. All of course as a gentlemen's agreement. But in addition, I will ask everyone to report if someone violates this agreement.

 

[Luca Badin]

Hi Luca.

I gave it a try with AI and it ended in a mess in Tiergarten as you predicted.

And I tried a 50 cars grid with 24 GT3/SP9, 6 Porsche Cup, 11 GT4 and 9 M240i Cup, and against all odds the field was pretty well behaved, with no incidents at all on lap 1.

Maybe it's just a fluke, or maybe it's just that I set the aggression to be low enough to avoid stupid moves, which should be the case with real people racing. (Hopefully nobody will actually try and go side by side through Flugplatz or Schwedenkreuz, for instance...)

The AI field at Hohenrain lap 1 (or lap 0 technically): https://streamable.com/js8c32

If we have less than 25 participants, I can switch to the layout with 24 spots. The start is than as normal on the start/finish straight.

If not I will announce a rolling start where the leader sets the pace and decides where to accelerate to race pace. Overtaking is only allowed after the start / finish line. All of course as a gentlemen's agreement. But in addition, I will ask everyone to report if someone violates this agreement.

Sounds good. Hopefully everything goes well and people respect the agreement, but if it's too difficult to enforce and we have to revert to a normal start, then I hope people will use some common sense and avoid risky overtakes until they are on the GP-Strecke anyway. (I hope that you won't have to switch to the 24 slot layout, I'd like to see a nice big grid )

 

[uvraver]

Exciting.
Though 20 mins for qualifying means 2 flying consecutive laps max
Will this mean many drivers wont set a time at all!
Considering there is no place on this lap where leaving the tarmac is not a disadvantage maybe turning the penalties of during qualifying allows everyone to get a a time on the board so we have a proper grid.

 

[pattikins]

Exciting.
Though 20 mins for qualifying means 2 flying consecutive laps max
Will this mean many drivers wont set a time at all!
Considering there is no place on this lap where leaving the tarmac is not a disadvantage maybe turning the penalties of during qualifying allows everyone to get a a time on the board so we have a proper grid.

Removing the penalties would allow people to throw caution to the wind. In previous races there, I've seen folks bounce off the armco & post faster times than those that have driven sensibly.

 

[HF2000]

Exciting.
Though 20 mins for qualifying means 2 flying consecutive laps max
Will this mean many drivers wont set a time at all!
Considering there is no place on this lap where leaving the tarmac is not a disadvantage maybe turning the penalties of during qualifying allows everyone to get a a time on the board so we have a proper grid.

Good suggestion. I will shorten practice and lengthen qually with 10min.

 

[jackdyson31]

In please Han - with wobbly knees - I have never driven it omg

 

[Fiberoptix]

I did! Tourist track with my Toyota Verso Diesel. Scared to death by all those Porsches and BMW's .
But that was 5 years ago before I started simracing. Lap time about 25 min .

Likewise Han. I did the tourist thing about 10 years ago in an M3. It was very busy and quite impossible to overtake anybody in a slower car as there always seemed to be somebody much faster in my mirrors trying to overtake me (usually a 911). Sharing the track with motorbikes was a different experience (been on open track days here in the UK and they alternate you), aswell as coaches and delivery vans. I think it was too popular that day, there was a queue down the last straight for 20 mins just to get back off again. Was a blur of concentration on everything and everyone around me for the two laps I drove, so I barely remember the track at all and didn't really enjoy it as I was nervous about being hit. There were a few gung ho drivers to say the least!

British insurance companies consider it a race track (I know its a public toll) so therefore you are not insured, that is on the back of your mind constantly when driving somebody else's expensive car!

Lap time lol

 

[Fiberoptix]

I will sign up with one of these, this guy did a few laps but not sure what his PB was..

 

[JamKart22]

Will we be using the old RD servers for this race? Can't imagine the sgp servers will cope with a large grid on a Sunday

 

[HF2000]

Will we be using the old RD servers for this race? Can't imagine the sgp servers will cope with a large grid on a Sunday

Good question!

I haven't decided on this yet. The s.gp guys are searching for the cause so it could be that it's been solved before this event.
But I will prepare a RD server as a backup for this event so I can switch at the last moment to it.

 

[random2k4]

British insurance companies consider it a race track (I know its a public toll) so therefore you are not insured, that is on the back of your mind constantly when driving somebody else's expensive car!

Many, if not already all German car insurance companies exclude racing tracks by default. Cause its an ongoing discussion on what the Nordschleife is, most of them explicitly exclude the Nordschleife as well.

 

[demetri]

Many, if not already all German car insurance companies exclude racing tracks by default. Cause its an ongoing discussion on what the Nordschleife is, most of them explicitly exclude the Nordschleife as well.

So how do people handle this then when doing laps there? Do they buy additional insurance to cover them or just go out and hope that nothing bad happens? Without any coverage a driving mistake could easily financially ruin you. Damaged cars, damaged armco barriers, lost profits due to temporary track closure to cleanup debris, etc. These things can add up pretty quickly

 

[random2k4]

So how do people handle this then when doing laps there? Do they buy additional insurance to cover them or just go out and hope that nothing bad happens? Without any coverage a driving mistake could easily financially ruin you. Damaged cars, damaged armco barriers, lost profits due to temporary track closure to cleanup debris, etc. These things can add up pretty quickly

As far as I know, there are special insurance plans you can add, but even then, in case of an accident you have to pay the car rescue and the barrier. Last time I checked barriers went for €80 a meter. Giving the fact each meter consists of 4 barrier panels, it adds up quickly. I guess most people that only want to "experience" the Nordschleife and not trying to be quick for some stupid Youtube videos are not going to have an extra insurance.
But it could all have changed by now. My info is mostly based on some 2018 articles I read.

 

[JamKart22]

GT-R please

 

[Chris Down]

Thanks for organising! A 650s for me please

 

[random2k4]

In with the Z4