AC GT3 @ Monza - Sunday 22nd November 2020

[Kek700]

@Raresch @random2k4 @GEO147
Your analysis of the Lamborghini is about spot on, the brakes are really rubbish, but you may have a good point about the extra pace. The only thing against that was George slip streaming me, still murdered me on the brakes.
It really makes me feel good about your progress, from spinning constantly to noticeably being very quick in some corners, that’s how I knew you were good, George too. To a couple of quick laps and an off. All I used to do was just sit behind you waiting for you to come off. ( that’s mainly how I know you and George had very good pace , I used to watch you both drive, often ) Those were the days ( ). Now I cannot even catch you or see you, and the days of just waiting for you to have an off are long gone. George too, although he has some bad luck of late, that will soon change, but he is hard on your tail.
Stefan is a problem for me now too, I was very very slowly pulling him in, ( took me the whole race time “60 min” ) made a couple of seconds on a pit stop, I think I could have caught him by the end of the race, noticed his tyre went off quicker than mine, but guess what, that bleeding Lamborghini got me again.
It really is a knife edge car, l really tried to keep consistent driving for the whole or most of the 60min, just changed my entry once to get a bit more pace
“ GONE “. I some time wonder if you get too much of a slide, the rear tyre just instantly goes into the red, bit like the 911

PS.

Really enjoyed my battle with George, that 650s was just so much quicker in places, than me, but the straights were a real problem for him, I wonder what wing he had, mine was at 3, can run it 0 0 but I wanted better stability, nearly got that, apart from one bleeding off. At least it was not four times.
Really enjoyable racing with all of you, had some great battles, with a few “hoots”of laughter on the way.
Especially the over take of all three of you, with me sliding gracefully through the middle of you three, ( phew !!! luckily got away with that )

So many thanks too @Chris Down for a great event, and of course the podiums.

still cannot get off to sleep even typing all this waffle.

 

[Kek700]

I have a question for you all, because you might know it.
I would like to upgrade my G29 witch brakes apart (even if it barely has 2 years) and I am torn between Thrustmaster TS-PC (Ferrari edition) + T-LCM or Fanatec CSL Elite V1.1 + CSL Elite pedals LC. I don't have a rig, I only have a desk, a wooden chair and a wooden box where I mount the pedals with screws.

The price:
TS-PC Ferrari edition - 532€
T-LCM - 198€
Total: 730€

Fanatec V1.1 base 300€
P1 rim 155€
CSL LC - 200€
655€ (there is an offer now where you don't pay VAT - don't know for how long) + 45€ transport = 700€.

What I know about those:
-Fanatec LC is not that great, because the load cell is in the mobile part of the brake pedal, so it measures the angle it travels, and if you press somehow differently, if you raise your foot in any other way than you've set it, the brake power is not the same. Is this true?
-Fanatec pots are still susceptible to spikes over time. Damaged pots are one of the main reasons I dislike the G29 and one of the factors for wanting a change. T-LCM have HALL sensors.
-Thrustmaster TS_PC is a weaker wheel, getting out less torque. Not significant, thou. Also, some say it has an elastic feeling, but that should be true for Fanatec as well, being a belt driven wheel.
-Fanatec RIM and wheelbase are more useful, having the LED's on the wheelbase and the display on the rim.
-Ferrari edition for the TS_PC looks better, in my opinion, than the P1 rim from Fanatec and at least has LED lights (if you compare it with other TH variants).

What do you think? Which is a better combination?

I have had the first csw V1 by fanatec, the Accuforce V1, simcube 2, have nothing but massive praise for the fanatec, all I have achieved is faster and smoother.
Not better, in fact I notice that the belt drives have a more realistic weight to them, your best bet is @RasmusP . He has a lot of knowledge about the Fanatec wheel design, hope I am not wrong about that..

Pedals, Heusinkveld, only problem that would absorb your whole budget.
So ask Rasmus is my only answer to that.

still cannot get to sleep.

 

[GeekyDeaks]

Fanatec LC is not that great, because the load cell is in the mobile part of the brake pedal, so it measures the angle it travels, and if you press somehow differently, if you raise your foot in any other way than you've set it, the brake power is not the same. Is this true?

I had a quick look at the design and can see that the sensor is well between the pedal foot plate and the rod through the elastomer springs. Whilst it's true that the location you apply pressure will affect the force through the load cell, it would also affect the load applied at the joint with the rod too due to the geometry, so even if you had the sensor at the bottom you would experience a similar change (try adjusting the position of the load point in the following example to see how it changes the load on the centre support https://beamguru.com/online/beam-calculator/?save=cae4a57bcd2fa803df2270f5d8bbbbae)

Damaged pots are one of the main reasons I dislike the G29 and one of the factors for wanting a change

Are you replacing everything due to noisy pots in the G29? If you are still evaluating options and want a short term fix, I have a hall sensor mod if you are prepared to tinker a bit. We just replaced the accelerator in my buddies and it works perfectly with the G29 wheel base (i.e. no having to bypass with a usb adapter). https://www.racedepartment.com/threads/g27-g29-hall-sensor-mod.190696/post-3278080

 

[Partick Eaton]

First I need to apologize for the mess on the first lap at parabolic. I tagged the back end and spun some one. I dropped to the back and had a great time working my way back up the field to finish 11th. I am always happy finishing better than I start.

Hey Logan I wondered what happened, I was having fun catching up to you knew it would be close. Too bad about the fuel shortage.

Thanks for hosting and thanks every one for the race!

 

[Raresch]

but the straights were a real problem for him, I wonder what wing he had, mine was at 3, can run it 0 0 but I wanted better stability, nearly got that, apart from one bleeding off. At least it was not four times.

You can try the setup I've posted. It's 0 1 wing, start with 0 2 and see if you can get lower. I really don't like loose back ends so i try to make them more stable. You can adjust the brake bias also. I was doing 70 for all the corners, except Lesmo 1 and 2 where I was using 71. Still, Lesmo 1 is still sketchy at entry and Lesmo 2 at exit. You need to be very patient until the car has finished the rotation. Otherwise you end up in barrier from the right.

Something you've mentioned and I didn't, and you are right about it. the Lambo has a drop off in grip after 10 laps or so. I could match, or be close to, Chris's pace for the first 6-7 laps of evry stint, but then, maybe it's also tiredness from my part, but I don't feel this in the R8, i started to loose tenths, sometimes almost a second, and not by making mistakes. The rear end just wanted to dance, especially in the second chicane, so i've had to slow down more than I should. What's weird it's that proTyre says the yellow grip comes around lap 12, but for me it was obvious with the Lambo from lap 8-10. So even if it's average on actual tyre management, the dropoff is significant.
But I drive the Lambo so rare, I might be talking jibberish

It really makes me feel good about your progress

You know, there is this app, pro standings, the one that Chris uses for seeing the grid and the gaps. It has the possibility to add rivals (which are displayed in pink) and teammates (which are displayed with green). For the record, you, George, Han and John are put as rivals my reason it's not hatred, not at all. It's setting goals for myself for beeing better and to know when I achieved them. Also, you were taking part into the same races as me, so it was good to have a target every race.

 

[Raresch]

your best bet is @RasmusP . He has a lot of knowledge about the Fanatec wheel design, hope I am not wrong about that..

I already know his perspective, and it's TS-PC and T-LCM or go bigger with CSW2.5(or dd) and V3, but any of that is too expensive.

 

[Raresch]

Are you replacing everything due to noisy pots in the G29?

It's also the fact that when I downshift, it shifts twice. I have 110ms debouce set for it not to do that. That's a lot. I can actually press the paddle twice, in that time. I always have to wait for downshift. Can't just go in rapid succession.
Also the fact that in ACC, the FFB for the G29 is kinda weak (but maybe the whole game has a problem with FFB)
And the whole insecurity about the pedals. Now I am using the 3drap mod and potentiometer. The pots work fine, but the 3d printed plastic had broken twice (once the clutch and once the accelerator. Brake seems fine) and had to use superglue to fix it. For now it works, but since I've started to have spikes with the original pots around February-March this year, at every straight I consult de pedal app input to see if the game wees my input as 100% or if it spikes. I don't have the confidence it can. Also, I keep fixing something every 2-3 months or so. In this period of time I've open up the pedals at least 5 or 6 times. It's just not sustainable, so I hope better gear will not brake in the first place.

 

[SOLO59]

Had a fun race myself! Qualified P9 and based on the fast top 8 qualifiers, I set a goal of a P9 to finish the race.

I had some consistent stints, a few mental mistakes and struggled with near dead rear tires near the end with the 911.

But manned l managed to hold of Knut on the final lap by getting lucky. He spun behind me while I was struggling. Probably would have caught on on the straight. Sorry about you spin bro.

Thank you @Chris Down for hosting and congrats for another great W. Hope I wasn't in your way when lapping me. I was struggling with tires and honestly bro didn't even trust my tires on the racing line! Lol I hope you would take the outside and you did
Your hot lap vids by the way are intimidating but very resourceful though.

Been a while but I did record my external view of the race. Y'all could see how I survived lap one tun one circus! Lol Still gotta line up the video/audio then upload later

 

[random2k4]

Stefan is a problem for me now too, I was very very slowly pulling him in, ( took me the whole race time “60 min” ) made a couple of seconds on a pit stop, I think I could have caught him by the end of the race, noticed his tyre went off quicker than mine,

After the Quali, I was still thinking, how I was able to get a new PB. After the start, I was just in front enough to get out of the most trouble and was constantly looking at the Relatives to see who is behind. As Soon as I read "Ernie" I was like: oh my here we go again and got immediately flashbacks to our race last week. I noticed that I was maybe quicker in some corners but lost speed on the straights even with 1 2 wing. You came pretty close just before the pit stop cause my tires were just gone. Had to really push it to keep a distance. Unfortunately, you spun out once wich I saw in my mirror. Without it, It would be a very close race for sure. Our Lap times were basically the same. Although you managed to get a .100 here and there. Still need to learn so much and really work on my consistency. Depending on the track the field between second and about sixth place is a really tide area right now. Just one mistake and you are done.

@GEO147 Unfortunately your replay lagged in the most interesting area but what a hell of a comeback.

@Raresch I am using the CSL Elite with the F1 rim and the basic 2 pedal set. I also read about the inconsistency of the Fanatec LC upgrade. The wheelbase and rim are very good, and the standart pedals do the job. Currently, I am looking around for LC pedals. Have to convince my wife that heusinkveld pedals are exactly what I need

 

[RasmusP]

About csl elite pedals:
I didn't listen to the few videos and posts that said what I'm gonna write here too. I've bought them, was very happy for a few races but then I had a race where I went off or braked too early in every lap into T1 at VIR.
Such a frustrating race... Telemetry showed wildly inconsistent brake input for each lap.
In this race I couldn't keep my foot and leg in exactly the same position for the whole race. Had some issues with a pressure point but couldn't move the ergonomic-pillow I was sitting on during the race hehe.

If you can really stay in exactly the same position at all times, then these pedals work well, but I'm sitting in a normal office chair with wheel stoppers, kinda pressing a little bit from above onto the pedals so I can't always press exactly the same.
Muscle memory can't be precise that way...

With the v3 pedals now I'm super consistent. No matter how or where I press, it's always almost identical.

Another thing: when you slap the pedal face of both pedal sets, the csl elite will show a massive spike, since the pedal arm gets a little bit bent over the elastomer-rod.
With the v3, the elastomers put some inertia on this so it barely shows any input.
Not a big thing but the csl elite are really sensitive for short pressure spikes.
My brake input is a lot smoother with the v3 due to the elastomers sitting between my leg pressure and the load cell instead of the pressure being directly connected to a flexible metal arm...

Sorry, I just hate how fanatec cheaped out with the csl lc design and even market it as "more direct"...

About the csl elite wheelbase:
It drives great, but the design has issues too... The little optical sensor with the wheel around the shaft that has holes to encode the wheel position?
I've read too many posts about de-centered csl wheels or jerky position reading from dirty sensor/holes or faulty sensors.
Sure doesn't cost much to get replacement parts but still... Ts-PC uses hall sensors like the csw.

BTW the csw series in general is a big step above the csl. Sure it costs a lot more but the designs are a lot better without taking the difference in materials into consideration...

Anyway:

Here's my calculation of input changes for csl vs v3:

About to purchase fanatec CSL elite LC

Hi everybody. After pretty long checked of various options , I came to the conclusions that this pedals set is probably the best one for me. I want to upgrade from my current G25. I must admit that I have always concernant regarding replacing something which is working perfectly. Well, I...

www.racedepartment.com

And here's a comparison I did when I got too frustrated again.
I compressed the elastomers so that the shaft would stick out 1.5cm.
I did this by pressing the pedal face at the center for one picture and at the top for the other.
I tried to press in the same angle..



And here's a video where I only bend the pedal arm with my hands without actually moving the pedal/compressing the elastomers at all:
(it's super short but you get the point)

 

[Raresch]

Here's my calculation of input changes for csl vs v3:

About to purchase fanatec CSL elite LC

Hi everybody. After pretty long checked of various options , I came to the conclusions that this pedals set is probably the best one for me. I want to upgrade from my current G25. I must admit that I have always concernant regarding replacing something which is working perfectly. Well, I...

www.racedepartment.com

But you calculate those values and I still find 20% deviation a lot, even for V3. Do you know someone who made the calculation for TLCM?

 

[RasmusP]

But you calculate those values and I still find 20% deviation a lot, even for V3. Do you know someone who made the calculation for TLCM?

No.. I also didn't find someone apart from me for the fanatec pedals hehe.
For normal usage it's only 12% with the v3 though, and when you don't move your foot a lot, it's less.
In reality while driving it would be more like:
2% with the v3
15% with the csl elite
The 2% aren't noticeable but with 15% plus or minus, you're definitely not braking consistently anymore...

The v3 design is like the heusinkveld or any other load cell really. The load cell is at the end of the elastomers pushrod so the pressure that's applied is always the same.
Only the leverage of your foot against the resistance changes.

What I mean is: when you move your foot up on the pedal face, compressing the elastomers gets easier.
With the v3 it's a 1:1 correlation but with the csl elite it's not, because the relations between leverage against load cell and leverage against elastomers are not 1:1.

The t-lcm have the load cell at the bottom of the elastomer/spring rod as far as I can see so they should world like all the other lc pedals (v3, heusinkveld etc).

 

[GeekyDeaks]

But you calculate those values and I still find 20% deviation a lot, even for V3

Thing is, this is going to happen in a real braking system too, it's just lever physics. I don't drive enough to tell in a car, but I notice the same effect on the front brake of my bike and actually use it for finer control of my braking by only using the two fingers closest to the pivot point unless it's an emergency.

I didn't factor in the much shorter distance to the load cell when I was first looking at this (thanks @RasmusP)

 

[Kek700]

@Raresch

just information mainly based on dodgy replay data.

You use your tyres differently to me, noticed it when I had a close battle with Chris in gt2 ( same car ), to go that bit quicker seems you consume tyres quicker. I lap pretty much the same time up to the pit stop, just gets a bit harder to maintain the same pace. To go quicker than me you need more mid-corner speed, which means more tyre wear, with the bonus of better temperatures, I try to maintain consistent laps, rather than look for fast laps.
I have done a lot to improve the braking on the Lambo, still not good, but much better. You are not utilizing your rear tyres, brake bias way too forward for a mid-weight engine biased car.
I am quicker with 0 rear wings 0 fronts, but it is close, my top speed at the end of the long straight was the same as you 175mph ( 281kph ), I was 3 rear wing 1 front. Although it makes you feel as though you are achieving a lot by knocking off lots of wings, it does not always work out that way.

 

[Andy Breedon]

Well, i dont know where to start, bare in mind i had the day to set up the sim, and try to get a set up. After being out of the scene for 5 plus years to. Hindsight now wished i had signed up to a later race, too short notice and too much to do in one afternoon after being out for so long, speed and race etiquette needs more practice.

First corner fun as always with this track lost me a few places but luckily kept going.

Apologies for the confusion, to George and another at parabolica or anyone else, i ran out of time to get the helio app thing installed and the AC pointer that came up confused me, i thought i was in the clear to take ascari but actually squeezed you George, then didnt see you on my left, i was going left to let you by expecting you on the right (sorry again) and same for the other guy on parabolica the arrow looked to show you diagonally behind my car and i thought i had the line and could take it.

I messed up by putting to much fuel in the car, had a crap set up and still ponder wether these cars are balanced well, porky seems way to slow, but as ive said its been such a long time and first time driving these.

For a random reason the car just slung me off track at ascari, didnt even hit a kerb and thought best to take that as the opportunity to retire from the race.

So today, im going to look for @Raresch's set up and grab the same car, see whats what and actually set AC up better.

Again apologies to anyone i hindered or made contact with.

 

[pattikins]

Again apologies to anyone i hindered or made contact with.

We had a coming together on lap 26. I was alongside you on the Curva del Serraglio and we collided turning in to Vialone. As you've been away from sim racing for a while I'm not going to make a meal of it, but it is important to stress that if you see the blue flag, & the lapping car is directly behind or alongside on a straight section of the track, you need to lift to let them past.

 

[Chris Down]

I messed up by putting to much fuel in the car, had a crap set up and still ponder wether these cars are balanced well, porky seems way to slow, but as ive said its been such a long time and first time driving these.

The 911 is actually one of the fastest cars on the grid at Monza -- definitely faster than (for example) the 650s which is really underpowered on the straights I've won here before with the 911.

Really all that's needed is some more practice, and the best way to do that is to do more races. We'd love to see you back again this week

 

[Raresch]

I have done a lot to improve the braking on the Lambo, still not good, but much better. You are not utilizing your rear tyres, brake bias way too forward for a mid-weight engine biased car.

I see. I guess that's the next point I have to manage. Most of the setups I saw are put with brake bias to 66-68, sometimes even lower. I just can't keep the car straight with less than 68-70. Still, they weren't blue or anything, but they were around 75-78C which is minimum, and the psi was dropping occasionally to 25. One psi higher would have get them in red for the whole race.

I see your point that going faster means using the tyres more, but still, the proTyre app is adjusting (theoretically) to the usage. My drop off was 3 laps before the tyres were yellow, which for me never happened in R8 so I was a bit surprised by it, but managed not to spun.

Regarding our identical top speed, it's true that I didn't have time to test other gear ratios. I think the car can go a little faster with a 6th gear that goes to 295 (so you might reach 285), but I might lose acceleration (and therefore time) from the first 2 chicanes. I might try it next time

 

[Kek700]

At Monza, I run 62 to 63 brake bias, but on another circuit that has very steep attack corners that would be a receipt for disaster.
I always have quite a different setup for each circuit.
I tried the higher gear thing, did not work, had my top gear at 285kph, on occasion got the rev limiter to buzz before braking.
if you look at the power curve, makes max power virtually at top speed, just not worth dragging a higher gear.
Lap 17 for me was the same as the previous laps, which tells me that you are depending on tyre grip for your laps.

 

[Chris Down]

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