AC GT3 @ Monza - Sunday 12th September 2021

[HF2000]

Aki Björksten who raced with us some time ago was very fast with the GT-R. He was as fast as Chris or Enzo.

And Michael Maddelena was also as fast as Chris in his 650 with the 488. I tried the 488 for half a year, but I couldn't get close to Michael's pace. Brian has also switched to 488 and he is much faster with it than me in a short period of time.

What's my point? You can choose almost any car, but without the talent or skills of the aliens you will never be that fast. I had to accept that and now I completely agree with Paul. I just want to have fun. And right now I have that with the GT-R with battles with other people in the midfield. But also in the multiclass events on Wednesday, with Audi or Mazda.

Most of the guys who have been regulars in the multiclass have about the same (lack of) talent as I do. But they enjoy the events as far as I know, so together we have a good time on Wednesday.

 

[Kek700]

@Shed 17

Han has pretty much summed it up, I am in the process of learning mid-engined cars, still a learning curve for me.

The best source for a setup is Rasmus, I would defiantly take up his offer and feel very lucky for that offer too.
You may need a bit of dialogue with him to make changes, he likes a more unstable car.
So if you explain the feelings you are getting from his setup he is very capable of making suggestions to you to make it fit you.

There is a lot of performance available with the 911, but it is hidden away in its chassis and how you extract that is very difficult. I started down that road but went for a much easier route with the Nissan.
I am at present at the point where I can deal with McLaren and get good, for me, pace from it.
I doubt if a year ago I would be having this conversation. ( probably this time next year will be back in the Nissan again )

 

[Shed 17]

@Shed 17

Han has pretty much summed it up, I am in the process of learning mid-engined cars, still a learning curve for me.

The best source for a setup is Rasmus, I would defiantly take up his offer and feel very lucky for that offer too.
You may need a bit of dialogue with him to make changes, he likes a more unstable car.
So if you explain the feelings you are getting from his setup he is very capable of making suggestions to you to make it fit you.

There is a lot of performance available with the 911, but it is hidden away in its chassis and how you extract that is very difficult. I started down that road but went for a much easier route with the Nissan.
I am at present at the point where I can deal with McLaren and get good, for me, pace from it.
I doubt if a year ago I would be having this conversation. ( probably this time next year will be back in the Nissan again )

Cheers Ernie

 

[RasmusP]

There is a lot of performance available with the 911, but it is hidden away in its chassis and how you extract that is very difficult.

Biggest issue is that sadly very clearly shows the weaknesses of ac's tyre simulation
But even on mediums with blue fronts it's plenty fast

 

[Goblin616]

I sometimes wonder about the concept of playing for fun, and the switching of cars at almost every track to get the best time. This is a philosphical question I'm not sure how to tackle.

Chris once told me to stick with the same car. Idk what to say about it.

 

[Goblin616]

I like the idea but it won't really work.. It would probably just make the usual gaps bigger with a few consistent people moving up.
When looking at the results of our events, the finish order is almost the same as when you'd sort it for consistency.

Also a lot of us don't practice much. Like me, more often than I'd like

So the qualy session is often also my extended practice session with only 1-2 good laps.
Usually my fastest laps are during the race, not in qualy.

This would mean people who practice more before the event will probably start higher up the order.
From my experience the people who practice more are further up the order anyway right now though...

I also usually have a free track during qualy without single shot qualy. Just let people by until you see a big gap behind you in the realtime app and you should be free for your hotlap.

Again, we could try it. I'm usually faster in the race than I am in qualifying. I'm horrible at qualifying, and I usually practice all week. I probably average 100 laps of practice before a race, and have you ever seen my doing qualifying? The last 3 GT3 races were basically abandoned laps. Even if it doesn't chance the order, it could still be fun.

 

[Kek700]

I am much better in pre race practice, rarely equaling those lap times in race practice or the race.
Let alone qualifying, I just shrug my shoulders and accept that is the way it is.
I find the whole process of racing for real, quite stressful.

The reason Chris, I think quite rightly advises the one car approach is due to less complex learning curve; you certainly do not want to burden yourself with having to rethink other very similar but very different cars in the same class.
I am at the stage were I know why the Enzo’s of this world are faster and can easily explain it to myself and hence see it in action.
When you are starting out, this and this alone becomes an overriding and inescapable dilemma that all are constantly battling with in our heads.
This is by far one of the biggest barriers to going fast, you are constantly looking north when the answer is south. ( so to speak )
the reason I can drive all the GT3 cars at the same pace, I am talking about a very average driver here, not a Chris.
Is because I can focus clearly on what I need to do to get it to go quickly, I am not hampered by looking north instead of south.
I hope that comes across as I would want it to, because it is meant to help.

I hope the picture below is an apt description of my aggressive approach to sim racing.

 

[adie_the_badie]

I agree with Rasmus and Ernie, it has to be fun but I kind of know how Logan feels.
I'm still a relative newbie and have been trying different GT3 cars to find something I am happy with. The Z4 and GTR seem to be my go to favorites as they offer a reasonably stable platform and are good all rounders for us less experienced drivers here.
I tried the Lambo in the Le Mans 2 hours race and while it was quick, I always felt that is was going to bite me without any warning and this made the whole 2 hours something of a struggle and not really enjoyable at all. I couldn't really race and felt like I was just hanging on.

I much prefer to be able to have a good race with someone of similar ability in a car that I am on top of and can push to my limits and am in some sort of control of. But like Logan, I always think I could go faster if in a different car but in reality the limits are in my abilities and if I concentrate on my braking points and lines my lap times will improve.

This reminds me of an article in a motorcycle magazine many years ago when some high profile and quick journalists tested the then World Superbike Champion Carl Fogerty's Ducati. They were shocked to find how easy to ride it was, not blindingly over powerful like some of the 'Big Bang' motors of the time. Carl commented that that's the way he likes it, to be the master of his machine and to be consistently fast over the race distance and able to race it. Many years ago I used to compete in offroad motorcycling and while I was a reasonably competent rider, I know the top guys could have ridden a lawn mower and been quicker than me, yet if I tried their bikes I would still be me at my pace or at worse in the nearest hospital!

So I think Logan used the word 'consistently' in his use of the GTR and that's the key to this in my opinion. Look at Han's consistency records and the are always in the mid or higher 99+% brackets over a race distance.

Like Casper, I really like the 911 for it aesthetics and over a couple of laps it is quite quick in my inexperienced hands, but I understand it eats tyres and with the weight right out the back can spring a few surprises. Have any of the really quick guys ever given the 911 a serious go or is it just too unpredictable and the tyre thing makes it unviable in a 60 minute race? A challenge for Ernie maybe?

Right on point here, Paul. The lap-by-lap consistency of; overall lap time, braking points, acceleration, and even expected under/oversteer throughout a race is key. Really, it's what I strive for the most on Sunday's and as Ernie said, I'm just happy with what comes my way.

But like Logan, I always think I could go faster if in a different car but in reality the limits are in my abilities

I must agree that my abilities are too my most limiting factor. However, I don't necessarily agree that a different car on a different track will make you faster. The subtleties of a specific car may make the circuit more enjoyable to race for an hour but these subtleties only help in maintaining that consistency. For example, the SCG was much more comfortable to drive when I practiced for Zandvoort, whereas, the Z4 was like being in a rock-tumbler. Was I faster? No. But, I could drive consistent overall lap times and achieve my pitstop goals. So, it would have been a win-win if I'd raced last Sunday.

As for my original question about why I'm faster in the Nissan than the other GT3 cars? I'll chalk that up to ignorance and just being a newbie. I was able to hit lap times only 0.4-0.5 off my PB tonight in practice with the Z4 and Ferrari. Considering this, I find these two cars more enjoyable and I'm just as consistent in them as the Nissan.

-------

I decided to take each car, minus the 911 and Audi (never really enjoyed them), for a handful of laps tonight with only tire type and pressure changes the rest of the setup left default. My two favorites after this small experiment were the Z4 and the Ferrari. Yes, I set a faster lap time in the Nissan but the former two cars are much more fun to drive. The Nissan was very forgiving with the Z4 a close second and the Ferrari bringing up the rear. The snap oversteer of the Ferrari is a bit frustrating but is fun when you manage it correctly. The aggressiveness of the 488 is a blast through the corners and will be a car I work on a bit and hopefully get used to to have as a good alternative to the Z4.

As for the other GT3's I can somewhat echo Ernie's opinion on most of them. I found the McLaren to be a bit "floaty" and could not feel comfortable in it. The same can be said for the AMG as I never felt in "contact" with anything about the car. It was very forgiving but it felt humongous in the corners. The sound was a nice addition to the test proceedings but it couldn't sway my opinion. While I liked the Lambo it is like the SCG in that I always have the dreaded 'slow-spin' on corner exit. Keeping the level of focus to have very precise throttle control for an hour, on a Sunday afternoon, is not in the cards. At any rate, this was helpful as it lead me to appreciate a car that I didn't like driving much when I started racing with this group. If anything it's a clear sign of growth!

Revel in my stone cold qualifying face.

 

[RasmusP]

I decided to take each car, minus the 911 and Audi (never really enjoyed them), for a handful of laps tonight with only tire type and pressure changes the rest of the setup left default.

When doing this, I would recommend to not use the default setups but instead the "optimized default setups" from Phil:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/enk1lh1sij09lnr/setups.zip?dl=0

You have to put the setups into the monza folder though ofc. Or you just navigate to Mugello from within the pits.

GT3 Car Pack @Mugello

Been thinking of doing this for a while so here it is. Base setups for the current relevant GT3 field. I used Mugello. The track has everything, big braking zone, slow corners, direction changes, fast corners, off camber corners...the setups that work well here should work well everywhere. The...

www.racedepartment.com

As for my original question about why I'm faster in the Nissan than the other GT3 cars? I'll chalk that up to ignorance and just being a newbie.

If you really want to know btw, just install ACTI, go on track, do some laps (don't restart session or leave the track without teleporting to pits with then driving out of the pits once to save the data at the end).

I'll happily do some quick analysis for you to show you where you lose the most time between the cars

 

[The Almighty Snark]

Speaking of setups, how should you balance tire pressure in AC? I've found plenty of info for ACC but I am not sure how much it translates to AC. I've also found the way tires behave to be wildly different between vehicles so I feel a bit lost despite experimenting a bit recently.

 

[RasmusP]

Speaking of setups, how should you balance tire pressure in AC? I've found plenty of info for ACC but I am not sure how much it translates to AC. I've also found the way tires behave to be wildly different between vehicles so I feel a bit lost despite experimenting a bit recently.

For ac, always go for optimum pressure!
There are different curves that take different things into the equation and give a grip multiplier as the result.

When you overlay those curves and weight them for their importance, steepness etc,
The pressure-grip-curve is almost always the most important.

Meaning dead cold tyres at optimum psi gives more grip than a bit cold tyres with far too low psi.

The issue here is that tyre model works pretty well and the curved on their own are accurate enough for most people but the influencing between the different factors isn't that great.

So lowering psi basically just lowers your grip but barely makes the tyres become warmer.

Same for camber. Optimum camber is way more important than "having 10 degree difference between inner and outer temperature".

Basically, you run optimum camber, optimum psi and then choose the tyre set that doesn't make you spin due to overheating.
A bit of red here and there can be better than too cold tyres.

For ACC:
Things are a lot different in ACC. Kunos really changed the importance of the different factors. You now really have inner, mid, outer tyre sections, a 5 point contact patch simulation instead of 1 point, pressure gets lowered if you hit kerbs (especially sausage kerbs) too heavily etc etc.

Not comparable at all imo!



I like that about AC though. Makes life simple. Just download camber extravaganza and use that to dial in your optimum camber during cornering (just above the line in the graphs during peak lateral G).
For PSI I'm using Sidekick, which shows you directly the delta to optimum psi.

 

[Goblin616]

When doing this, I would recommend to not use the default setups but instead the "optimized default setups" from Phil:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/enk1lh1sij09lnr/setups.zip?dl=0

You have to put the setups into the monza folder though ofc. Or you just navigate to Mugello from within the pits.

GT3 Car Pack @Mugello

Been thinking of doing this for a while so here it is. Base setups for the current relevant GT3 field. I used Mugello. The track has everything, big braking zone, slow corners, direction changes, fast corners, off camber corners...the setups that work well here should work well everywhere. The...

www.racedepartment.com

If you really want to know btw, just install ACTI, go on track, do some laps (don't restart session or leave the track without teleporting to pits with then driving out of the pits once to save the data at the end).

I'll happily do some quick analysis for you to show you where you lose the most time between the cars

I never understood the difference between "phil's base" and "phil's default." - which one is the adjusted settings? (We don't need the base kunos setup, because we all have that - so I don't understand why there's two for each.)

 

[RasmusP]

I really like the 911 for it aesthetics and over a couple of laps it is quite quick in my inexperienced hands, but I understand it eats tyres and with the weight right out the back can spring a few surprises. Have any of the really quick guys ever given the 911 a serious go or is it just too unpredictable and the tyre thing makes it unviable in a 60 minute race?

Quoting this again for overview:
- I got 6th in the race, we had Chris, Han, Ernie, Axel, Geoff, Stefan, Han and Brian in the race though.. So not too bad

- I changed the mediums during the pitstop!

- best qualy lap: 1:24.438 ; best race lap: 1:24.930

- Setup for Brands Hatch and my Silverstone approach attached below

- Sadly no replay from the race or anything... But I have the motec records for qualy and the race

- And I have a video from my fastest practice session lap. 1:24.538. Maybe it helps showcasing the Porsche behavior?

 

[Interslice]

Speaking of setups, how should you balance tire pressure in AC? I've found plenty of info for ACC but I am not sure how much it translates to AC. I've also found the way tires behave to be wildly different between vehicles so I feel a bit lost despite experimenting a bit recently.

Short answer you're looking for 26 psi all round. Use pro tyres or sidekick to get the better 0.1 precision.

No simple solution or method with it, just trial and error. Between pressure and compound, by far the most important setup section to get right.

As an example here at Monza. You set the rear left to 18psi in the pits. If you're exiting parabolica faster and faster as the week goes on, the RL tyre might start to go hot (orange/red/plus 85C ) and 27 psi after 5 laps of tyre wear resulting in a wobble or a spin.

Watch the pro tyres psi to show you where the standard tyre app ticks over to the next psi value.

So you change the base to 17 psi and live with running a 25 psi RL through half the track.

Or you could decide to add a click of rear wing and brave the 27 psi as it will cool again by the time you reach T1.

I'd recommend running the pro tyres app in practice. It gives more precise tyre pressure and will show you which tyres are locking on the brakes causing more heat.

Also if you're not doing much practice and anticipate getting faster as the race goes on, set the tyres for 25 psi in practice. If you go 2 or more seconds faster they'll probably go up to 26..

Running more parallel toe settings will help cool the tyres on the straights...

 

[Shed 17]

Quoting this again for overview:
- I got 6th in the race, we had Chris, Han, Ernie, Axel, Geoff, Stefan, Han and Brian in the race though.. So not too bad

- I changed the mediums during the pitstop!

- best qualy lap: 1:24.438 ; best race lap: 1:24.930

- Setup for Brands Hatch and my Silverstone approach attached below

- Sadly no replay from the race or anything... But I have the motec records for qualy and the race

- And I have a video from my fastest practice session lap. 1:24.538. Maybe it helps showcasing the Porsche behavior?

Top man Rasmus, manty thanks. I am curious to see how the Porsche behaves with input from someone who has been there but I won't be switching quite yet by the looks of it!.

 

[Shed 17]

Short answer you're looking for 26 psi all round. Use pro tyres or sidekick to get the better 0.1 precision.

No simple solution or method with it, just trial and error. Between pressure and compound, by far the most important setup section to get right.

As an example here at Monza. You set the rear left to 18psi in the pits. If you're exiting parabolica faster and faster as the week goes on, the RL tyre might start to go hot (orange/red/plus 85C ) and 27 psi after 5 laps of tyre wear resulting in a wobble or a spin.

Watch the pro tyres psi to show you where the standard tyre app ticks over to the next psi value.

So you change the base to 17 psi and live with running a 25 psi RL through half the track.

Or you could decide to add a click of rear wing and brave the 27 psi as it will cool again by the time you reach T1.

I'd recommend running the pro tyres app in practice. It gives more precise tyre pressure and will show you which tyres are locking on the brakes causing more heat.

Also if you're not doing much practice and anticipate getting faster as the race goes on, set the tyres for 25 psi in practice. If you go 2 or more seconds faster they'll probably go up to 26..

Running more parallel toe settings will help cool the tyres on the straights...

Great intel Brian, this is just the sort of information that helps make those odd 0.1s of improvement for the beginners amongst us, cheers!

 

[RasmusP]

Running more parallel toe settings will help cool the tyres on the straights...

Is this really a thing in AC?
I've found that the rear toe makes a big difference for under/oversteer when being negative/positive.
But I've never seen it really changing the temperature...

 

[adie_the_badie]

When doing this, I would recommend to not use the default setups but instead the "optimized default setups" from Phil:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/enk1lh1sij09lnr/setups.zip?dl=0

You have to put the setups into the monza folder though ofc. Or you just navigate to Mugello from within the pits.

GT3 Car Pack @Mugello

Been thinking of doing this for a while so here it is. Base setups for the current relevant GT3 field. I used Mugello. The track has everything, big braking zone, slow corners, direction changes, fast corners, off camber corners...the setups that work well here should work well everywhere. The...

www.racedepartment.com

If you really want to know btw, just install ACTI, go on track, do some laps (don't restart session or leave the track without teleporting to pits with then driving out of the pits once to save the data at the end).

I'll happily do some quick analysis for you to show you where you lose the most time between the cars

Whew...okay. After running all the cars (minus the SCG...no setup) this morning with Phil's default setups I've had a rather large change of heart. The 911 and 488 are now my top two contenders with the Z4 a very close third. I can run consistent lap times in all three but the former two are much more fun to drive. Surprisingly, the Z4 was quite a bit different and at first, was most unpleasurable. The Audi and McLaren were fine to drive but I felt like I couldn't push them like I could the 911, 488, and Z4. The McLaren is the 'softest' of all the GT3 cars and I still felt the same as last night about its 'weightlessness' in the corners. As for the Lambo...I felt like a spinning top. My novice skill set is not apt to drive this car around Monza. The only consistency I had in it was spinning through Lesmo 2. The AMG still felt humongous but was overall a nice drive but didn't have the 'aggression' that I like in the 488 and 911.

** I did change the tire type to soft and increased the psi of all tires +1 for each car. I don't think this had a huge impact on my testing as the psi was within the range of 25-27 throughout my laps.

Thanks @RasmusP for the link to the setups. It was really helpful! As for ACTI, I've never used it but I'll be happy to give it try and let you analyze my data. Thanks in advance!

 

[RasmusP]

Whew...okay. After running all the cars (minus the SCG...no setup) this morning with Phil's default setups I've had a rather large change of heart. The 911 and 488 are now my top two contenders with the Z4 a very close third. I can run consistent lap times in all three but the former two are much more fun to drive. Surprisingly, the Z4 was quite a bit different and at first, was most unpleasurable. The Audi and McLaren were fine to drive but I felt like I couldn't push them like I could the 911, 488, and Z4. The McLaren is the 'softest' of all the GT3 cars and I still felt the same as last night about its 'weightlessness' in the corners. As for the Lambo...I felt like a spinning top. My novice skill set is not apt to drive this car around Monza. The only consistency I had in it was spinning through Lesmo 2. The AMG still felt humongous but was overall a nice drive but didn't have the 'aggression' that I like in the 488 and 911.

** I did change the tire type to soft and increased the psi of all tires +1 for each car. I don't think this had a huge impact on my testing as the psi was within the range of 25-27 throughout my laps.

Thanks @RasmusP for the link to the setups. It was really helpful! As for ACTI, I've never used it but I'll be happy to give it try and let you analyze my data. Thanks in advance!

I agree with everything! I find the Porsche to be a lot easier to maintain pointing in the right direction than the 488.
The only occasion where the Porsche is really difficult is downhill, like brands hatch T1.
It tends to rotate a bit too much but with some throttle, it can be caught almost every time.
It has some distinctive "rotate, understeer, settle, oversteer" behavior. You can see it in my video around brands hatch in almost every corner. The car doesn't turn and then suddenly grips.
You need to manage this little moment with the steering input.

I'd suggest to try my brands hatch and the Silverstone setup around monza.
They are basically just Phil's mugello setup with a few adjustments to be able to really push around the 2 other tracks.

Way too much downforce for monza, but maybe still a good drive?

 

[hape]

hi folks
it could be that i'm tomorrow not on the race because of a friend which invited us for tomorrow but its not clear on which time we get back at home. For now there are 9 cars free for this event. So it could be that i'm not on the race. If this is ok i would look if ican make it. If its not ok @Interslice leave me a message and i will kill my entry tomorrow morning
hape