AC GT3 @ Laguna Seca - Sunday 6th June 2021

[demetri]

As far as I'm aware, SRS (as an example) doesn't have RD's Golden Rule, so if a driver has a crash they can just carry on with their race. Again, I think SRS drivers are subject to a safety & performance rating, but anyone can join RD's club races, irrespective of experience - yet the penalty for an incident in an RD club race could now be much higher.

They can carry on, but at their own peril. You being a victim can report them after the race and if they are found at fault they will likely get sanctioned. And anyone can join SRS as well, including those with essentially no experience and they may even get into the top split, this screenshot from a Nords-Cup race in the top split illustrates this:

I hope that knowing that a crash will have more significant consequences and have them effective immediately will prevent people from being too reckless, but of course I could be wrong. There's only one way to check that.

 

[pattikins]

They can carry on, but at their own peril. You being a victim can report them after the race and if they are found at fault they will likely get sanctioned. And anyone can join SRS as well, including those with essentially no experience and they may even get into the top split, this screenshot from a Nords-Cup race in the top split illustrates this:
View attachment 480436

I hope that knowing that a crash will have more significant consequences and have them effective immediately will prevent people from being too reckless, but of course I could be wrong. There's only one way to check that.

I don't want to get too distracted discussing the levels of sim driving experience between SRS & the RD Club scene. The point I'm trying to make is that each one has a single key method of curbing bad driving. SRS, by all accounts, uses high vehicle damage (good for racing against strangers). RD (AC club*), obviously, uses the Golden Rule. Both SRS & RD have rules for dealing with the more egregious incidents.

If drivers fail to obey the Golden Rule, then that is between staff & the people directly involved. It shouldn't have any bearing on the rest of the drivers, such as introducing additional arbitrary punitive measures for future races. I've also seen far worse incident filled races, sometimes caused by some of the safest drivers, than Sunday's Laguna race. happens.

The new 60% car damage rule seems to have come about as a result of Ernie's complaint against another driver. I was involved in both incidents - lap 6 @ the corkscrew & lap 20 @ T2. In the first incident, the driver that ran into the back of Ernie was defending his position against me & just mistimed his braking. happens. Unluckily for me, I came off worst in the aftermath of that incident - resolved via pm.

In the second incident, @ first glance, it looked like a bad driver error. However, when I compared it to a previous lap (12), it appeared that Ernie had gone wide on worn tyres. Enough to give the other driver a glimmer of hope for the exit of T2.

Unless I'd made a mistake, I wouldn't have defended my position in that manner. I'm not saying Ernie was in the wrong, just that it was an ordinary incident where the other driver didn't stop. It's certainly not enough to justify the hike in car damage.

Three perspectives of the incident:
Ernie, Stefan & myself - we can all make mistakes, even the initial victim.

*RD rFactor 2 club has a higher car damage rate.

 

[Interslice]

I don't want to get too distracted discussing the levels of sim driving experience between SRS & the RD Club scene. The point I'm trying to make is that each one has a single key method of curbing bad driving. SRS, by all accounts, uses high vehicle damage (good for racing against strangers). RD (AC club*), obviously, uses the Golden Rule. Both SRS & RD have rules for dealing with the more egregious incidents.
View attachment 480497

If drivers fail to obey the Golden Rule, then that is between staff & the people directly involved. It shouldn't have any bearing on the rest of the drivers, such as introducing additional arbitrary punitive measures for future races. I've also seen far worse incident filled races, sometimes caused by some of the safest drivers, than Sunday's Laguna race. happens.

The new 60% car damage rule seems to have come about as a result of Ernie's complaint against another driver. I was involved in both incidents - lap 6 @ the corkscrew & lap 20 @ T2. In the first incident, the driver that ran into the back of Ernie was defending his position against me & just mistimed his braking. happens. Unluckily for me, I came off worst in the aftermath of that incident - resolved via pm.

In the second incident, @ first glance, it looked like a bad driver error. However, when I compared it to a previous lap (12), it appeared that Ernie had gone wide on worn tyres. Enough to give the other driver a glimmer of hope for the exit of T2.
View attachment 480519

Unless I'd made a mistake, I wouldn't have defended my position in that manner. I'm not saying Ernie was in the wrong, just that it was an ordinary incident where the other driver didn't stop. It's certainly not enough to justify the hike in car damage.

Three perspectives of the incident:
Ernie, Stefan & myself - we can all make mistakes, even the initial victim.

*RD rFactor 2 club has a higher car damage rate.

The damage thing hasn't been introduced for this race because of any one driver, race or incident. I havn't even looked at the incidents you refer to above or anything from that race. Unless han got some i don't think any reports were made.

It's more just to test the theory of more damage = less collisions.

 

[pattikins]

The damage thing hasn't been introduced for this race because of any one driver, race or incident. I havn't even looked at the incidents you refer to above or anything from that race. Unless han got some i don't think any reports were made.

It's more just to test the theory of more damage = less collisions.

Unfortunately, the theory has its origins in a discussion of Ernie's post - see #40. So it's only fair to have a look @ the incident.

With regard to the theory. I've seen lots of people drop out of a race following an incident, including 's. So the theory should be more damage = less collisions = more drop outs... I was taken out in the first lap of this race, & I collided with the wall. If the 60% damage rule had been in place, I would have had to limp to the pits, & by the time I came out I would've been lapped. I'm 100% certain that I would've quit.

 

[RasmusP]

Unfortunately, the theory has its origins in a discussion of Ernie's post - see #40. So it's only fair to have a look @ the incident.

With regard to the theory. I've seen lots of people drop out of a race following an incident, including 's. So the theory should be more damage = less collisions = more drop outs... I was taken out in the first lap of this race, & I collided with the wall. If the 60% damage rule had been in place, I would have had to limp to the pits, & by the time I came out I would've been lapped. I'm 100% certain that I would've quit.

I'm sure that you would've only been half a second slower with a bent steering wheel

Podium gone, but the midfield would've enjoyed racing you, I'm sure

 

[HF2000]

The damage thing hasn't been introduced for this race because of any one driver, race or incident. I havn't even looked at the incidents you refer to above or anything from that race. Unless han got some i don't think any reports were made.

It's more just to test the theory of more damage = less collisions.

I received no reports.

 

[pattikins]

I'm sure that you would've only been half a second slower with a bent steering wheel

Podium gone, but the midfield would've enjoyed racing you, I'm sure

As I said in my first post, I was involved in 31 incidents, so that would've been the lapped, lapped... midfield .

 

[demetri]

Unfortunately, the theory has its origins in a discussion of Ernie's post - see #40. So it's only fair to have a look @ the incident.

With regard to the theory. I've seen lots of people drop out of a race following an incident, including 's. So the theory should be more damage = less collisions = more drop outs... I was taken out in the first lap of this race, & I collided with the wall. If the 60% damage rule had been in place, I would have had to limp to the pits, & by the time I came out I would've been lapped. I'm 100% certain that I would've quit.

This incident is basically a carbon copy of how I was taken out at Portimao.

2021-06-09 08-56-20

Watch "2021-06-09 08-56-20" on Streamable.

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I understand "a glimmer of hope" idea, but one should be able to realize that it was a false hope, back out of it and avoid t-boning the car ahead. Cars have a steering wheel and brakes, you know. It is ridiculous if you need to drive here in club races on RD like it was a public server where clueless people would send it at every opportunity.

As for 60% being so fatal, I don't think that's true. I once hit a wall at about 200 km/h on lap 1 in an SRS race after losing it in Blanchimont due to a flawed setup (diffuser stalled at high speed): https://streamable.com/fvn1jx
The car got damaged, but not as badly as you would think, and I could continue the race and even got a podium finish that day.

 

[demetri]

As I said in my first post, I was involved in 31 incidents, so that would've been the lapped, lapped... midfield .

You can divide that by 2 because car-to-car contacts almost always are counted as 2x

 

[pattikins]

This incident is basically a carbon copy of how I was taken out at Portimao.

2021-06-09 08-56-20

Watch "2021-06-09 08-56-20" on Streamable.

streamable.com

I understand "a glimmer of hope" idea, but one should be able to realize that it was a false hope, back out of it and avoid t-boning the car ahead. Cars have a steering wheel and brakes, you know. It is ridiculous if you need to drive here in club races on RD like it was a public server where clueless people would send it at every opportunity.

As for 60% being so fatal, I don't think that's true. I once hit a wall at about 200 km/h on lap 1 in an SRS race after losing it in Blanchimont due to a flawed setup (diffuser stalled at high speed): https://streamable.com/fvn1jx
The car got damaged, but not as badly as you would think, and I could continue the race and even got a podium finish that day.

It's the same driver so I'm not going to comment. I've said my bit about the incident. I've no desire to upset either Stefan or Ernie. What concerns me is the trifling matter of 60% car damage. Accepting that it is not fatal, it is still going to have a major impact on performance. Plus, I don't want the possibility of half the field disappearing after the first lap.

I'm in my third year of sim racing with RD AC club, and the majority of them have been good clean fun races, far outweighing the bad ones. The additional car damage, on top of the existing rules, in my opinion, is far too serious for a casual/social racing club.

 

[RasmusP]

I'm in my third year of sim racing with RD AC club, and the majority of them have been good clean fun races, far outweighing the bad ones. The additional car damage, on top of the existing rules, in my opinion, is far too serious for a casual/social racing club.

From my perspective the biggest issue right now is that the newbies are all going for the GT3 events instead of practicing, warming up with online racing etc etc in the slower, more fun orientated events.

For me that's okay. I'm nowadays pretty good at anticipating strange moves

 

[pattikins]

...

For me that's okay. I'm nowadays pretty good at anticipating strange moves

I like to keep my rivals guessing

 

[demetri]

It's the same driver so I'm not going to comment. I've said my bit about the incident. I've no desire to upset either Stefan or Ernie. What concerns me is the trifling matter of 60% car damage. Accepting that it is not fatal, it is still going to have a major impact on performance. Plus, I don't want the possibility of half the field disappearing after the first lap.

I'm in my third year of sim racing with RD AC club, and the majority of them have been good clean fun races, far outweighing the bad ones. The additional car damage, on top of the existing rules, in my opinion, is far too serious for a casual/social racing club.

Yes, it will affect the performance (a few tenths per lap or even a second, much more if you damage the suspension though) and that's the point. Maybe knowing that your bad move will make another person struggling till the end of the race (or their pit stop) will prevent hot-heads from going all in. Maybe not, but why not try it first? If it doesn't work we can return to that arcade 10% setting, no problem.

 

[demetri]

From my perspective the biggest issue right now is that the newbies are all going for the GT3 events instead of practicing, warming up with online racing etc etc in the slower, more fun orientated events.

For me that's okay. I'm nowadays pretty good at anticipating strange moves

You barely join these GT3 club events nowadays

 

[pattikins]

Yes, it will affect the performance (a few tenths per lap or even a second, much more if you damage the suspension though) and that's the point. Maybe knowing that your bad move will make another person struggling till the end of the race (or their pit stop) will prevent hot-heads from going all in. Maybe not, but why not try it first? If it doesn't work we can return to that arcade 10% setting, no problem.

To me, increasing car damage is a sign of a failure/unwillingness to engage with so-called hot-heads. If a driver does something one doesn't like, pm them and explain to them why... If that fails, refer them to staff.

If I was racing in a league, with people of similar experience, I'd be happy to go to 100% damage. But we are not. As Rasmus mentions, there are lot of inexperienced drivers, and for whatever reason, lack practice time in the GT3 races - making overtakes, etc., problematic.

 

[demetri]

To me, increasing car damage is a sign of a failure/unwillingness to engage with so-called hot-heads. If a driver does something one doesn't like, pm them and explain to them why... If that fails, refer them to staff.

If I was racing in a league, with people of similar experience, I'd be happy to go to 100% damage. But we are not. As Rasmus mentions, there are lot of inexperienced drivers, and for whatever reason, lack practice time in the GT3 races - making overtakes, etc., problematic.

How would you deal with this?

Well I came across a few cases of drivers never PM'ing other drivers they punted off although the incident was in clear sight for them onboard even at an fov of 20.
But whenever they were pm'ed, they politely apologized.
To then punt off the next one...

Some probably think that as long you didn't wreck the other person on purpose it's all somehow OK (spoiler alert: no, it's not and it is your job to avoid doing that) and using a low damage only encourages this idea.

 

[pattikins]

How would you deal with this?

I'd wag my finger in the mirror and I'd pm the other hot-heads.

or did you mean 100% damage? Probably badly, but I could at least retire the car early, & not flog a half dead car around the track.

 

[Programmer_Rich]

From my perspective the biggest issue right now is that the newbies are all going for the GT3 events instead of practicing, warming up with online racing etc etc in the slower, more fun orientated events.

For me that's okay. I'm nowadays pretty good at anticipating strange moves

Rasmus, although I can't speak for all newbies I'll give you my experience/circumstances given I think I still qualify as a newbie after only 5/6 club races. Personally I probably wouldn't have gone 'straight' into a GT3 RD Club race without the encouragement of a friend of mine (@JamKart22) who had already done 5/6 himself and given I'd raced against Colin a lot previously (some AC over the last couple of months but lots of other earlier stuff) and we're pretty closely matched generally.
For me the Sunday night GT3 slot works well with family/work commitments whereas other slots don't, so practising at the Wednesday night multiclass club race doesn't work for me but I'd still encourage other newbies to take that opportunity whenever they can (it makes a huge amount of sense).
That said I took joining my first (and actually all subsequent) GT3 race seriously doing probably 60+ practice laps (initial track/car learning, normally a one hour AI practice race, plus practice quali runs). Following the first few races I've now found additional time to start working on the setup of the Nissan (beyond my initial gear/tyre/aero changes) which is providing additional gains in both lap time and consistency.
All that said I wouldn't call myself a Sim Racing newbie having had a misspent youth from the earliest racing games (Geoff Crammond's GP1-GP4 on PC, F1 series and Gran Turismo on PS3 etc etc). I then had kids and took a 10 year 'semi-enforced break' before getting into Sim Racing again with AC during lockdown in December so I'm now six months in. I'm slightly curious if this makes me a newbie or not (not that I mind either way!!).
So my only point is just because you haven't seen me (or others) on the Wed night club prep events it doesn't necessary mean we're not taking it seriously (again not that I think you were particularly aiming your comments at me - so no issues just sharing!)

 

[RasmusP]

Rasmus, although I can't speak for all newbies I'll give you my experience/circumstances given I think I still qualify as a newbie after only 5/6 club races. Personally I probably wouldn't have gone 'straight' into a GT3 RD Club race without the encouragement of a friend of mine (@JamKart22) who had already done 5/6 himself and given I'd raced against Colin a lot previously (some AC over the last couple of months but lots of other earlier stuff) and we're pretty closely matched generally.
For me the Sunday night GT3 slot works well with family/work commitments whereas other slots don't, so practising at the Wednesday night multiclass club race doesn't work for me but I'd still encourage other newbies to take that opportunity whenever they can (it makes a huge amount of sense).
That said I took joining my first (and actually all subsequent) GT3 race seriously doing probably 60+ practice laps (initial track/car learning, normally a one hour AI practice race, plus practice quali runs). Following the first few races I've now found additional time to start working on the setup of the Nissan (beyond my initial gear/tyre/aero changes) which is providing additional gains in both lap time and consistency.
All that said I wouldn't call myself a Sim Racing newbie having had a misspent youth from the earliest racing games (Geoff Crammond's GP1-GP4 on PC, F1 series and Gran Turismo on PS3 etc etc). I then had kids and took a 10 year 'semi-enforced break' before getting into Sim Racing again with AC during lockdown in December so I'm now six months in. I'm slightly curious if this makes me a newbie or not (not that I mind either way!!).
So my only point is just because you haven't seen me (or others) on the Wed night club prep events it doesn't necessary mean we're not taking it seriously (again not that I think you were particularly aiming your comments at me - so no issues just sharing!)

Thanks for the story of yours!
I wouldn't call you a standard newbie at all!
You're just fresh to our club and although I didn't race against you yet, you seem prepared, responsible and sensible so a warm-hearted welcome!
Nice to have another good guy on the grid!

 

[pattikins]

Rasmus, although I can't speak for all newbies I'll give you my experience/circumstances given I think I still qualify as a newbie after only 5/6 club races. Personally I probably wouldn't have gone 'straight' into a GT3 RD Club race without the encouragement of a friend of mine (@JamKart22) who had already done 5/6 himself and given I'd raced against Colin a lot previously (some AC over the last couple of months but lots of other earlier stuff) and we're pretty closely matched generally.
For me the Sunday night GT3 slot works well with family/work commitments whereas other slots don't, so practising at the Wednesday night multiclass club race doesn't work for me but I'd still encourage other newbies to take that opportunity whenever they can (it makes a huge amount of sense).
That said I took joining my first (and actually all subsequent) GT3 race seriously doing probably 60+ practice laps (initial track/car learning, normally a one hour AI practice race, plus practice quali runs). Following the first few races I've now found additional time to start working on the setup of the Nissan (beyond my initial gear/tyre/aero changes) which is providing additional gains in both lap time and consistency.
All that said I wouldn't call myself a Sim Racing newbie having had a misspent youth from the earliest racing games (Geoff Crammond's GP1-GP4 on PC, F1 series and Gran Turismo on PS3 etc etc). I then had kids and took a 10 year 'semi-enforced break' before getting into Sim Racing again with AC during lockdown in December so I'm now six months in. I'm slightly curious if this makes me a newbie or not (not that I mind either way!!).
So my only point is just because you haven't seen me (or others) on the Wed night club prep events it doesn't necessary mean we're not taking it seriously (again not that I think you were particularly aiming your comments at me - so no issues just sharing!)

A low consistency score, on a frequent basis, is usually an indicator of someone struggling to get to grips with AC or any other sim. I don't think speed is necessarily a good measure of experience. There are plenty of 'slow' drivers who have a solid knowledge of the game... With over 99% consistency in the practice & qualifying round, I'd say that you're far from a newbie.*

*Edit: depending on the game, car & track combo, I can find myself very quickly back in newbie-land