AC GT Championship Race #2 @ Monza - Sunday 14th November 2021

[FabianoRL]

@FabianoRL
Not too sure what you actually mean by that statement Fabiano, car or Discord.

I guess both... lol. Eventually one tip we can hear from the more experienced ones may help a lot.

Have a read through this..

Thread 'Need Help with Discord' https://www.racedepartment.com/threads/need-help-with-discord.209383/

Thank you so much. Now I've associated my account to Discord and I should be set for next time.

 

[Interslice]

Enjoyed the race tonight. Had a great battle with @Taj Johal in the beginning. Took about 20 minutes and the help of many Gt3 cars to get past! The acceleration of the cayman made it it a very similar contest to my many battles with the nissans in the 488
Really happy with how the abs/tc works. The Maserati is alot nicer to drive now with the assists and is noe similar to a Gt3 car in how it drives. Having cold tires on one side and warm on the other isn't an issue on the brakes any more! I could properly dog fight with taj for 20 minutes. Before you would have to be very careful following the caymans not to lock the brakes and punt them.

I had a surprise chance at catching @Fiberoptix in the end but we were at the same pace when he exited the pits after refueling. Great drive for the podium from micheal and tim.

Congrats to @Aksu and @HF2000 for the wins! See you all next week.

 

[demetri]

GT3 guys: such an action will cost the GT4 a lot of time! And I think it does cost yourself also time because you can't take the corner on the raceline. So please next time be patient and wait for the GT4 to enter and leave the corner.

I'd like to share some thoughts from the POV of a GT3 driver. Even not taking a corner on the raceline can still be much quicker than sitting it out behind a slow GT4. I think I was driving one of the cars you mentioned and I definitely cost you 2-3 tenths in that corner (and lost about the same myself comparing to taking it on an empty track), but I believe I didn't do anything wrong because I was half a car length ahead at the turn-in point and didn't overshoot the apex.

Dive-bombing from the hyperspace, not making the apex and then going on a very slow line is a completely different story of course and I understand your frustration with that 100%. That's on the GT3 driver who does it. When you're driving the faster class car you're supposed to either pull your moves off just right or err on the side of caution.

I've been on both sides of this story participating in multiclass events outside of RD and in general, when being in the slower class, you can't expect to be able to drive like the faster class cars aren't there and won't cost you any time when they lap you (unless you both get lucky and the pass happens on a straight). That's simply unrealistic

 

[HF2000]

I'd like to share some thoughts from the POV of a GT3 driver. Even not taking a corner on the raceline can still be much quicker than sitting it out behind a slow GT4. I think I was driving one of the cars you mentioned and I definitely cost you 2-3 tenths in that corner (and lost about the same myself comparing to taking it on an empty track), but I believe I didn't do anything wrong because I was half a car length ahead at the turn-in point and didn't overshoot the apex.

Dive-bombing from the hyperspace, not making the apex and then going on a very slow line is a completely different story of course and I understand your frustration with that 100%. That's on the GT3 driver who does it. When you're driving the faster class car you're supposed to either pull your moves off just right or err on the side of caution.

I've been on both sides of this story participating in multiclass events outside of RD and in general, when being in the slower class, you can't expect to be able to drive like the faster class cars aren't there and won't cost you any time when they lap you (unless you both get lucky and the pass happens on a straight). That's simply unrealistic

Hi Dmitry,

I hear and understand your point, but I don't quite agree. First I don't think that this is in the spirit for the GT4 to have the racing line. My second point is that it leads to dangerous situations because the GT4 drivers don't know what to expect. There were a lot of GT3 drivers waiting for us to go through that chicane and Variante Ascari.

And it wasn't just the 2-3 tenths that I lost there. Because of the bad race line I had to take through Variante Secundo, I had a very bad exit towards the straight towards Lesmo. At that time I was a class leader with a small gap to No. 2 that was significantly smaller after that.

But I can tell you this: if the agreement is that this is allowed, then I consider this that I can also drive a defensive line from now on if I think I will lose less time with doing that.

 

[Fiberoptix]

At that time I was a class leader with a small gap to No. 2 that was significantly smaller after that.

Exactly.. I think its important is to pay attention to and understand where other drivers are in their race and be sensitive to that. I will try and make it easier for GT3 class leaders to pass me if I can clearly see there is a tight battle going on with the real time positioning between them, I will compromise a bit of position/speed to do that. However, I am not going to make so much effort to compromise my lines with a GT3 back runner trying to get past who is no man's land regarding his class.

A GT3 overtook both myself and Michael as we went side by side into T1 fighting each other.. Granted it was one of the very fast skilled drivers at the front and we all got away with it but was a scary one! I need to check the replay of that one out later

 

[Kek700]

my 10p worth.
easy really;-
The GT3 cars gain an advantage if they overtake a GT4 car before the corner relative to a chasing GT3 car.

The GT3 car loses an advantage if he is held up in a corner with respect to a chasing GT3 car.

When in a corner behind a GT4 car racing ceases, then resumes after the corner.

This is what I try and do, I did check the replay to make sure I did not do anything too silly.

last-minute overtake before the braking zone leaves the GT4 car in trouble, I know this can be judged, but it is a fine line, example if the corner is one where the GT3 car can just scrub speed and maintain a reasonable gap, it's greater cornering speed can keep the GT4 car at a maximum speed without interfering with his race.

This is my take on it, I did witness a lot of naughties with GT3 cars, especially in the first corner.

Gary in the GT4 was especially good in his attitude with GT3 cars and I would say all GT4 cars behaved impeccably, not sure I can say the same for my GT3 brothers.

 

[Taj Johal]

Had an enjoyable but also at times a stressful race.

Qualied and finished where I expected. My pace at the beginning was ok to keep up with Han, Tim and Michael, while keeping Brian behind me. I did have a brain fade due to wandering mind and missed my braking point for Retifilo by a good 50m Narrowly avoided Michael, was so glad not to have ruined his race, gave the place back immediately.

But then Brian caught up and we had a great battle for a good 20mins. I knew we were slowing each other down, sensible me was saying let him pass and then use him to keep in touch with the others. But it was too much fun to be sensible
Eventually Brian got past, a few GT3 overtook at the wrong time (the joys of multiclass ) and Brian drove away.

By now I'd lost my rhythm, took a while to get it back, I seemed to get slower whereas the top 4 seemed to pick up the pace. At some point Michael appeared behind me, we raced for a few laps before he overtook me. I only realised afterwards, he was out of position having already pitted. I think my racing him might have cost him a victory . Sorry mate.

Pitted, came out behind of Pat, who I overtook thanks to a GT3 provoking Pat into a half spin (the joys of multiclass ) Finished in 5th, already looking forward to Spa!!

Congratulations to the podiums!!
Many thanks to all who took part, and Brian for hosting (and the racing )

 

[Fiberoptix]

Good pace Taj. That was me at T1, I saw you coming to my side (benefit of VR) so drove straight across the grass to avoid the contact. I probably could have made it turning in behind you but took the risk free approach. Thank you for waiting. I couldn't lose you from my mirrors before that!

 

[Taj Johal]

The thoughts of an average driver on multiclass racing

To me it's obvious that there will be times you will lose time time due to being lapped as a GT4 driver or lapping as a GT3 driver.
And of course there will be times you gain time over your rival when being lapped as a GT4 driver or lapping as a GT3 driver.
Some times you win, some times you lose. That's sport.

Yesterday, there were a few lapping maneuvers which were not really kosher for me. They showed a lack of consideration and respect for others. And all driver deserve the same respect, whether they are GT3 or GT4 drivers, fighting for the podiums or running at the back.

The GT3 drivers need to show more consideration when lapping, if you lose a second or two to your rival, tough.
And we GT4 drivers also need to show the same consideration to the lapping GT3 drivers. Again if we lose a second or two to our rivals, tough. It's the joys of multiclass driving.

Some times you win, some times you lose. That's sport.

 

[Taj Johal]

Good pace Taj. That was me at T1, I saw you coming to my side (benefit of VR) so drove straight across the grass to avoid the contact. I probably could have made it turning in behind you but took the risk free approach. Thank you for waiting. I couldn't lose you from my mirrors before that!

Sorry for mixing you up with Michael. Thank God you saw me !!
I had the full anchors on and was praying you wouldn't turn in
Otherwise it would have been a big one

 

[HF2000]

I only realised afterwards, he was out of position having already pitted. I think my racing him might have cost him a victory . Sorry mate.

No need to feel sorry, Taj. That's part of the pitstop strategy. If you're going in early, you risk getting behind others that didn't pit yet and they have the right to defend their position in that case (no blue flag).
It's an important part of the strategy of the F1 teams: if I pit now, what will be my position when I come back on track!

 

[Taj Johal]

No need to feel sorry, Taj. That's part of the pitstop strategy. If you're going in early, you risk getting behind others that didn't pit yet and they have the right to defend their position in that case (no blue flag).
It's an important part of the strategy of the F1 teams: if I pit now, what will be my position when I come back on track!

Think you owe me a beer

 

[demetri]

Hi Dmitry,

I hear and understand your point, but I don't quite agree. First I don't think that this is in the spirit for the GT4 to have the racing line. My second point is that it leads to dangerous situations because the GT4 drivers don't know what to expect. There were a lot of GT3 drivers waiting for us to go through that chicane and Variante Ascari.

And it wasn't just the 2-3 tenths that I lost there. Because of the bad race line I had to take through Variante Secundo, I had a very bad exit towards the straight towards Lesmo. At that time I was a class leader with a small gap to No. 2 that was significantly smaller after that.

But I can tell you this: if the agreement is that this is allowed, then I consider this that I can also drive a defensive line from now on if I think I will lose less time with doing that.

I can't say for other encounters that you had, but in that one I don't see how you could've expected me to wait behind you. I was close enough to make that pass (fully alongside at the braking point coming from under the bridge) and of course I went for it.

Generally, if I see that I can get my car alongside a lower class car by the turning point (and then not miss the apex and blow the corner) I make the move. If I am not sure I sit it out and wait. This is a much stronger condition than when making a move against the same class car where you only need to get a significant overlap by the turn in to claim the space. I believe that's fair, you can't expect faster class cars to always complete the pass before the turn. Driving defensively won't change it because you can't defend being in that position and driving a car that has less grip and less power. You will get passed regardless and will likely lose even more time.

I think initially you had 2.2 seconds gap to Tim behind you. After that chicane the gap went down to 1.9, maybe 1.8. One way to lose less time would be to anticipate an inevitable pass and modify your line and braking so that you don't go side-by-side and then have a bad line into the second part of the chicane. If you're able to slot in behind the passing car you should have a good exit and lose only a minimal amount of time, provided that the passing car doesn't blow the corner of course (but as I said, if that happens, then it's the faster car's fault). An example of that was on my lap 25 when I was about to pass Michael into Ascari and he saw that, braked slightly earlier than usual and went into the corner right behind me

 

[demetri]

Exactly.. I think its important is to pay attention to and understand where other drivers are in their race and be sensitive to that. I will try and make it easier for GT3 class leaders to pass me if I can clearly see there is a tight battle going on with the real time positioning between them, I will compromise a bit of position/speed to do that. However, I am not going to make so much effort to compromise my lines with a GT3 back runner trying to get past who is no man's land regarding his class.

A GT3 overtook both myself and Michael as we went side by side into T1 fighting each other.. Granted it was one of the very fast skilled drivers at the front and we all got away with it but was a scary one! I need to check the replay of that one out later

I think I know the moment you're describing as I saw it in the replay. Looked OK to me, I probably would've done the same

 

[Kek700]

Not sure we are meant to race the GT4 cars, rather they have the right to the road, if only because you cannot really have a free for all with the GT4 cars.

Not a case of is it doable, but as a matter of respect, after all, it is a race in a race and not one race.

Sometimes a following GT3 car will respect that but sometimes the GT3 car will use a GT4 as a movable object to take advantage of just to gain something, rather than allowing the hand of fate to be in control.

When some do it, then the rest follow suit, because they feel they are forced into it.

I tend to think can I get in front with a gap, if I cannot, I wait for the corner to pass.

I am not saying every pass should have some large tolerance, we all make mistakes of judgement.

GT3 and GT4 is a mix that does not favour GT3 racing, that is just the way it has to be.

 

[demetri]

Again, speaking from my own experience of driving in the slower class, leaving the inside to the faster class car to take and then slotting in behind it usually works just fine. Yes, you will have to watch your mirrors and make adjustments to your preferred line

Here's a really good write-up about rules of multi-class racing along with some solid advice

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[HF2000]

I think it's good that we had this discussion and to hear eachothers views on the matter. Thanks for that. It helps to be aware of it.
I've learned from it that there are different expectations of the blue flag rule: When a faster car is overtaking a slower car (a car in a different class), whether a blue flag is being shown to the slower car or not, the slower car should be predictable and remain on the racing line. My interpretation of this was that the raceline is for the GT4 is every aspect. But Dmitry's interpretation is also valid within this context. So as long as this is the rule, interpretation and therefore expectation is to the driver himself again within this context.
I'll take this in mind in future multiclass events.

 

[The Almighty Snark]

It might be worth looking at the British GT(You should anyway, it's good) championship, they run GT3 and GT4 grids in one hours races at the same time at tracks like Brands Hatch and Oulton Park. The GT4 is often used by the GT3 as obstacles to block in opponents for example. It's fantastic racing to watch and shows some serious skill in both classes.

 

[HF2000]

Again, speaking from my own experience of driving in the slower class, leaving the inside to the faster class car to take and then slotting in behind it usually works just fine. Yes, you will have to watch your mirrors and make adjustments to your preferred line

Here's a really good write-up about rules of multi-class racing along with some solid advice

404 Error

Thanks Dmitry! Nice addition to our conversation!
This shows that you were right to do the overtake as you did.

But I also take this one in mind for a slower class driver: If however you 100% do not want the faster class car to pass you into the next corner because you do not feel it is safe, position your car in a slightly defensive manner early enough to show them that you don't want them to pass you into the next turn. Please however do not do this through multiple corners into multiple braking zones or do this late / in the braking zone. It will only cost you time and serve to frustrate the other driver.

 

[Taj Johal]

Again, speaking from my own experience of driving in the slower class, leaving the inside to the faster class car to take and then slotting in behind it usually works just fine. Yes, you will have to watch your mirrors and make adjustments to your preferred line

Here's a really good write-up about rules of multi-class racing along with some solid advice

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This is an excellent write up, any chance we can pin it ?
With permission of Yorkie / APEX of course.