AC Friendly Event: Mazda MX5 Cup @ Mugello - Wed 09/08/17

[PsychOXRat]

decent race for me although from lap 1 I lost positions due to the car oversteering on the brakes on the final turn and me slightly overcorrecting it to go straight on, really need to work on my race pace as I know that I got far too cautious during the race as to not make a mistake and spin

 

[Paul Glover]

Hmm, I (think I) don't do that at all in this car - you find it helps?

Yes, for some cars it definitely helps with the stability. But I've recently realised that is also stops me scrubbing too much speed off as I enter the corner, makes the change down of gear or gears smoother too. Doing so I managed to find a couple of seconds per lap, it really makes a difference.

So that is what I'm working on, making sure when I approach a corner practice this to improve my speed entry on a corner.

HTH

 

[Paul Wright]

Firstly many thanks again for last night, the support is always helpful *note to self, search for USB mic* and the racing is much too competitive for my tiny old/newbie brain to process still

Got involved in the turn 1 wreck at the back as an innocent bystander (this time!) but in all honesty it didnt hamper me unduly as i was starting back there anyway lol, spun myself once coming onto the main straight (too brave on the throttle and ran onto the dirt.....duh) but aside of that spent the rest of the race trying to beat my times on sidekick and managed to pass a couple of cars.....including poor dry Rupe

A great nights racing thank you, i haven't tried Imola yet but i fancy it

pps - not sure if i have the talent for double-foot work as mentioned above but hey, never say never eh?

 

[RainhamIron]

Yes, for some cars it definitely helps with the stability. But I've recently realised that is also stops me scrubbing too much speed off as I enter the corner, makes the change down of gear or gears smoother too. Doing so I managed to find a couple of seconds per lap, it really makes a difference.

So that is what I'm working on, making sure when I approach a corner practice this to improve my speed entry on a corner.

HTH

So this could be the black magic people refer to in the braking zones (i.e. "how the hell did he come past me into the corner, I was already on the limit" etc)
Are you referring to trail braking into a more open corner btw, or is it more when you're full on the anchors onto a heavy braking zone?

Either way braking at the moment is one of my main issues. The GTEYE has helped a bit with feel, but at the end of the day you're still turning a potentiometer. I've been trying to experiment a bit with the brake gamma, so it's quite progressive for most of the looser part of the pedal travel to help with trail braking etc, but then becomes a steeper input curve when you hit the stiffer part of the spring. I still need lots more practice though to make any of this work consistently.

 

[BhZ]

Yes, for some cars it definitely helps with the stability. But I've recently realised that is also stops me scrubbing too much speed off as I enter the corner, makes the change down of gear or gears smoother too. Doing so I managed to find a couple of seconds per lap, it really makes a difference.

So that is what I'm working on, making sure when I approach a corner practice this to improve my speed entry on a corner.

HTH

It will increase the braking distance and it can make the car understeer more in corner entry. Just blip the throttle when changing gear if you need to and apply the throttle after turn in or during it depending on the corner.

 

[Paul Wright]

It will increase the braking distance and it can make the car understeer more in corner entry.....

Suits me, it understeers everywhere else

 

[RasmusP]

As BhZ said, applying throttle is just a way of take a way around the problem.
I'm really interested in technical details so what happens if you apply throttle under braking:
- the brakes are slowing the wheels
- the throttle pulls against that, just on the rear wheels
-> your brake balance moves to the front and the brake "pressure" gets lowered. -> more grip at the rear (important: for the weight shift it doesn't matter if you are braking at the fronts or the rears! It only matters for the mohr's circle of grip!)

- Slightly before the brake is released completely, the front will still brake, while the rear is accelerating.
-> slightly "loaded" front wheels with weight a bit shifted to the rear -> more stable car with slight understeering!

- if you release the brake now, the rear will start to push forward instantaneous.
-> front wheels get light, rear gets loaded->more grip on the rear and more understeering

Well that's just the physic behind that. How it's perfectly explained? I don't know I agree that it helps but I will just post my thoughts about why it's not the best way:
First a little picture about grip levels: If your "point" leaves the circle, you are sliding!
So braking OR accelerating = less grip for cornering. But "load" raises the pressure the rubber get's pressed to the track and therefore raises the grip limit.

In the end you just maintain more grip on the rear, so the car is slightly understeering. But the weight actually shifts more, since you switch between braking and accelerating, instead of braking and coasting.

How I think it would be better:
Modulating the brake! Don't just brake with a bit of throttle. Lift the brake slightly at the points the throttle would help. Not as easy as it sounds, I agree!

What I think is the main difference between the "really fast guys" and us average guys:
- of course the use of the track... But we are talking about the car

- we mere mortals are driving like that:

1. BRAKE
2. STEER
3. LIFT BRAKE
4. STEER MORE
5. OH SH*T I'M SLIDING
6. THROTTTTLLLEEEEEE!!!!

- the really fast guys are driving like that:

1. slowing down
2. slowing down a bit less to shift the weight for turn in
3. turn in aggressively
4. oooh, a bit more weight to the rear
5. ah now turning perfectly tight
6. oooh, the rear wants to step out
7. weight shifting a bit to the rear to maintain grip
8. and now dancing through the turn on the perfect grip limit

Of course that's completely exaggerated but it's like I think about it. Of course the really fast guys do that without thinking like that. They just feel it and have the experience.

So how to get to that: practice!!!! And not just doing lap after lap. Thinking about such things, trying different methods, TRY to feel that all and then you might actually feel it at some point

In my opinion someone doesn't have just "talent do be fast". They have the "talent to feel and process such information faster". If they do it actively or passively doesn't matter in the end.

 

[Paul Glover]

So this could be the black magic people refer to in the braking zones (i.e. "how the hell did he come past me into the corner, I was already on the limit" etc)
Are you referring to trail braking into a more open corner btw, or is it more when you're full on the anchors onto a heavy braking zone?

Either way braking at the moment is one of my main issues. The GTEYE has helped a bit with feel, but at the end of the day you're still turning a potentiometer. I've been trying to experiment a bit with the brake gamma, so it's quite progressive for most of the looser part of the pedal travel to help with trail braking etc, but then becomes a steeper input curve when you hit the stiffer part of the spring. I still need lots more practice though to make any of this work consistently.

I don’t really know how to explain it, it’s normally the harder braking corners that it works best. Some say blip the throttle, I guess that is what I am doing.

I’m no expert haha

 

[RasmusP]

Oh and REALLY important on the MX5: are you driving with Clutch+H-Shifter or paddles?
I use only paddles and you need to activate autoclutch and autoblip! Without it the rear is really unstable at downshifting under braking!

 

[Paul Glover]

Oh and REALLY important on the MX5: are you driving with Clutch+H-Shifter or paddles?
I use only paddles and you need to activate autoclutch and autoblip! Without it the rear is really unstable at downshifting under braking!

I'm using paddles and have those enabled.

 

[RasmusP]

To bring my longish, philosophic text down to a short sentence:
You have to shift the weight to the tire you need more grip with and reduce the longitudinal force on it at the same time.
In theory the best possibility to do that would be to brake with the inside wheels. Oh, the new Audis are already doing that (just found a video about the "power")

 

[BhZ]

You guys are focusing too much on the theory. Just focus on precision and consistency. The rest will come automatically. Theory is usefull to improve in the details.

 

[Stig Bidstrup]

Oh and REALLY important on the MX5: are you driving with Clutch+H-Shifter or paddles?
I use only paddles and you need to activate autoclutch and autoblip! Without it the rear is really unstable at downshifting under braking!

Just lift the throttle slightly when you shift down, when using paddles, Ac is not fast enough to register any gearbox damage when you do this, auto clutch and Blip will only slow you down ( lap times ) on the other hand if you use H shifter and don't blip on downshifts it will register damage...

 

[Andy_J]

auto clutch and Blip will only slow you down

I am interested in this. I use both and I'm slow anyway, but surely just auto clutch and auto blip when using paddles can't really slow you down? Is that really a fact?

 

[Paul Glover]

I am interested in this. I use both and I'm slow anyway, but surely just auto clutch and auto blip when using paddles can't really slow you down? Is that really a fact?

I use them and I'm faster than you? I have been working really hard working out the best gears for corners, I do that by watching the time delta displayed on Sidekick to get an idea what is fast and what is not. You'd be amazed when it looks faster but turns out not to be the case.

Then there is the braking element I mentioned previously.

But also it's the way I shift down gears, normally too early. Brake to the right speed and as you get to the apex then downshift. That seems to work best., it seems to allow me to not scrub off too much speed either and makes the transition from straight to corner more fluid.

By the way, I pick some of these tips up by watching others too. Best way to learn if you are struggling.

Remember though, I'm still not the fastest.

 

[Stig Bidstrup]

I am interested in this. I use both and I'm slow anyway, but surely just auto clutch and auto blip when using paddles can't really slow you down? Is that really a fact?

The experts are of course out there , but a fast way to improve laptimes is to use the paddles with no assists ,just remember to lift the throttle at the right time, and my guess is that 8 out of 10 winners here at this site use excatly this combination , H shifter cars ore not doesn't matter, you can be faster with the H shifter in H shifter cars if your really focused on your downshifts ( blip) it also gives more freedom ,you can for example go from 5th gear to 3th gear which can be a advantage at some corners...

 

[RasmusP]

You guys are focusing too much on the theory. Just focus on precision and consistency. The rest will come automatically. Theory is usefull to improve in the details.

Just having fun behind the scenes In the end you need to spend time behind the wheel, of course!

Just lift the throttle slightly when you shift down, when using paddles, Ac is not fast enough to register any gearbox damage when you do this, auto clutch and Blip will only slow you down ( lap times ) on the other hand if you use H shifter and don't blip on downshifts it will register damage...

Need to try if I can be really faster with it. Last time I checked it wasn't really enjoyable...

 

[Andy_J]

Thanks chaps. I'm too stuck in my old ways to change things now. I'll carry on using auto clutch and auto blip. Not bothered about competing for wins or anything, I just enjoy the racing and concentrating on consistency and smoothness. I do use left foot braking though.

I just wondered why using the autoblip and Auto Clutch would be slower but I get the gist of it now. Thanks.

 

[RasmusP]

I can also recommend these two threads
I put together a few videos with comparisons between "slow" and "fast" guys.

http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/help-audi-tt-cup-understeer.137655/

http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/and-they-say-this-game-is-easy.137480/

The video if you don't want to read everything:

Audi TT Splitscreen Analysis by RasmusP on RaceDepartment

 

[Stig Bidstrup]

Thanks chaps. I'm too stuck in my old ways to change things now. I'll carry on using auto clutch and auto blip. Not bothered about competing for wins or anything, I just enjoy the racing and concentrating on consistency and smoothness. I do use left foot braking though.

I just wondered why using the autoblip and Auto Clutch would be slower but I get the gist of it now. Thanks.

The game uses time-----to do those 2 things for you----its better to use that time on your laptime ,
the--- between the writing is the time you loose sort of