Fanatec CSL Elite + and BMW GT2 wheel
- Thread starter glen64
- Start date
Yes I was just thinking that the overall FFB is so strong with those cars, I would need a very low car specific multiplier - thinking out loud. My point should have been more about the lack of an overall FFB gain setting, in game in rF2 . That's why I've always run 60-70% in wheel software - to save adjusting down the car specific multiplier for each car. Didn't realise that it caps the forces.
I'm assuming that you run it with Dynamic off? Do you just use it to view FFB levels and adjust them to suit, or do you check the Run in Background box?
I'd tried a few things, but gone back to a LUT. I guess I did it wrong, because I had this weird vibration effect. In English, I'd call it thrumming. It's like a vibration that kinda pulses in amplitude. So the vibration was around 20 - 50 cycles per second, but the amplitude variance was at around 1 cycle per second. Anyway, it was awful, but I get bored with fiddling with settings very quickly. At some point, I gave up and just left it how it was.
Miles better now though.
MakCorp Group C... I tried 100% at the base and a multiplier of x0.35 which still gave enough average FFB to drive but I imagined the spikes etc to be more like the GT3s in Assetto...
When I drive the Norschleife in AC, between Pflanzgarten 2 and Schwalbenschwanz you have this high speed right hander before the uphill left. During that right hander the ffb increases by factor 2 for me. You really feel the aero and cambering working. Feels awesome!
Now with the Group C in rF2 the ffb basically stays the same for me at high speed corners but bumps, kerbs etc are always extremely brutal even at low speeds.
So I won't say it's due to the aero or the cars not being made for consumer wheels. I'd say there's just something wrong with the mod honestly. I set the kerb effect to 0.0 in my json, still extremely brutal in comparison to any steering forces, low or high speed!
Now about the torque capability setting. Using Mclaren 720s GT3 at Silverstone:
8.0: normal ffb
0.5: normal ffb
2.5: normal ffb
50: very light ffb!
Seems like it's working as intended at least for me
EDIT: downloaded the bmw road car mod from the steam workshop and that's a good example of why this setting isn't usable at all. That BMW road car has like 2-3x the ffb output of the mclaren gt3 car. I drove that car in real life and although it has higher steering forces than the VW Polo from my mother, it's definitely weaker than my CSW at 100%.
I had the torque capability set to 8.5 for this testing. Seems like the mod is not very accurate
Anyway, I'm sticking to "2.5" => default! And will adjust the multiplier to my liking...
When I drive the Norschleife in AC, between Pflanzgarten 2 and Schwalbenschwanz you have this high speed right hander before the uphill left. During that right hander the ffb increases by factor 2 for me. You really feel the aero and cambering working. Feels awesome!
Now with the Group C in rF2 the ffb basically stays the same for me at high speed corners but bumps, kerbs etc are always extremely brutal even at low speeds.
So I won't say it's due to the aero or the cars not being made for consumer wheels. I'd say there's just something wrong with the mod honestly. I set the kerb effect to 0.0 in my json, still extremely brutal in comparison to any steering forces, low or high speed!
Now about the torque capability setting. Using Mclaren 720s GT3 at Silverstone:
8.0: normal ffb
0.5: normal ffb
2.5: normal ffb
50: very light ffb!
Seems like it's working as intended at least for me
EDIT: downloaded the bmw road car mod from the steam workshop and that's a good example of why this setting isn't usable at all. That BMW road car has like 2-3x the ffb output of the mclaren gt3 car. I drove that car in real life and although it has higher steering forces than the VW Polo from my mother, it's definitely weaker than my CSW at 100%.
I had the torque capability set to 8.5 for this testing. Seems like the mod is not very accurate
Anyway, I'm sticking to "2.5" => default! And will adjust the multiplier to my liking...
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I will do some more testing today as well, but still...if you have to set the torque to above 20 to even feel any effect, then I would definitely consider the setting to be absolutely meaningless on non-DD wheels.
As far as I remember, I'm mostly running with dynamic adjustment on, because after a few laps, it settles on a reasonable value anyway and doesn't really change much, so I don't bother turning it on and off. But I rarely play AC nowadays, so I don't remember my settings exactly and can't really check right now.
Also, LUT...yeah. I won't go there
Like I've said, I don't think it's reasonable to expect the FFB strength to be relative to real life with our sims. I don't think anybody is even aiming at that, since it would mean having absurdly light and unusable FFB in many cars (like your BMW here) with only a few cars utilizing the full torque range available.
As far as I remember, I'm mostly running with dynamic adjustment on, because after a few laps, it settles on a reasonable value anyway and doesn't really change much, so I don't bother turning it on and off. But I rarely play AC nowadays, so I don't remember my settings exactly and can't really check right now.
Also, LUT...yeah. I won't go there
Like I've said, I don't think it's reasonable to expect the FFB strength to be relative to real life with our sims. I don't think anybody is even aiming at that, since it would mean having absurdly light and unusable FFB in many cars (like your BMW here) with only a few cars utilizing the full torque range available.
You probably ran with auto=on and dynamic off. Which means it takes a good average value depending on what strength preset you select. Light, normal, heavy.
The dynamic mode boosts the ffb when there is low FFB output and lowers it when it clips. Resulting in removing the deadzone pretty well with a logitech wheel but also kills some muscle memory effect.
With my logitech luts I couldn't use it anymore though because there's only a range of +/- 5% where the deadzone was gone completely without feeling a notch when passing center.
So I set all cars to that value, resulting in all cars having exactly the same strength regarding their straight line force...
Now with the csw I'm using the light preset, let it do its thing and adjust it only if needed.
Interesting description. A milder version of this is what I feel in many of the older rF2 cars (e.g., Skippy) and some of the new Reiza pack cars (like the FVee and MR18). Other cars with the identical settings and Smoothing feel sublime (Brabham BT44, GT3 DLC, Reiza MCR2000 and Puma 052).
I know the bad FFB on the Group C and never use that mod because of it. But I think it is just at the extreme end of a spectrum that affects other cars. I have been struggling to describe how the vertical forces (ripples, bumps curbs) are out of proportion (too strong) compared to the horizontal forces (cornering g-force). It is even more interesting that one is responsive to certain settings changes more than the other.
Also, the kerb effect does nothing--all rF2 tracks that I am aware of use properly-modelled curbs/kerbs where the car physics will respond to the 3D model and not a canned effect. In the olden days of rF, people sometimes used the canned effect due to old-tech wheels and such.
OK, so some more tests of the torque settings, this time using the 720S at Silverstone to have some sort of baseline from Rasmus.
I couldn't tell any difference between 0.1 and 30. If there was a difference, it was concealed in my inability to replicate the driving absolutely perfectly every time. I did the best I could, but I just couldn't feel any difference, and the FFB meter also showed pretty much the same values.
With 40 and 50, the FFB definitely got lighter (more so with 50).
At 35, the FFB *might've* been just a tiny bit lighter than at 30. I'm not sure if it was placebo or not, but I think it did feel and look slightly lighter.
Anyway, this is proof enough for me the setting is basically meaningless on anything other than DD wheels, and strong ones at that. Just like people were saying every time this setting was discussed.
I couldn't tell any difference between 0.1 and 30. If there was a difference, it was concealed in my inability to replicate the driving absolutely perfectly every time. I did the best I could, but I just couldn't feel any difference, and the FFB meter also showed pretty much the same values.
With 40 and 50, the FFB definitely got lighter (more so with 50).
At 35, the FFB *might've* been just a tiny bit lighter than at 30. I'm not sure if it was placebo or not, but I think it did feel and look slightly lighter.
Anyway, this is proof enough for me the setting is basically meaningless on anything other than DD wheels, and strong ones at that. Just like people were saying every time this setting was discussed.
You are extrapolating what is happening on your wheel to the general world. Bad idea. There is an easily detectable difference on the Fanatec CSW. Differences in hardware and drivers are why we constantly get quite different impressions of FFB (remember the Jekyl and Hyde Formula 2?). What would be clever is to find out why one wheel is unaffected while others are greatly affected.
@Marc Collins There are now two people with different wheels from different manufacturers experiencing the exact same thing, and one apparently experiencing something different. So while that's certainly not a very big sample group, it's still more reasonable to assume what me and Rasmus are experiencing - which also correlates with what others have said about that setting, and also matches Rasmus' detailed explanations and calculations how it's supposed to work - is "normal", while your experience seems to be the odd one out here.
On a csw the difference is a lot more pronounced I guess but Martin's test at least confirm that it works similar.
The higher the setting the lower the ffb.
Question is why the ffb goes higher with low values? Which car did you use for testing?
Reiza FVee and MR18. I could try other cars if you think there is something car-specific (I do not).
I don't either... Especially with official cars. Still weird, didn't happen for me with low values. And it is supposed like that.
No idea why it gets boosted for you with low values. Are you sure the multiplier was the same?
Anyway, this setting isn't useful anyway so default and using the ingame multiplier will have to do the job. At least for me. This value combined with the not-so-true-to-life cars in rF2 does only screw with the ffb strengths...
I should clarify that at low levels, the FFB is not actually heavier as in torque required to tun the wheel. I would describe it as a stronger emphasis on the steering resistance (horizontal) versus bumps (vertical). Just pulling out of the garage you can notice it, but it does not actually boost the forces to the wheel in any absolute sense. I realize that might be causing some confusion. What is crystal clear is the elimination of the FFB--all of it--if you crank the number high enough. Of course, the value required to dissipate all FFB should and will vary from wheel to wheel and may be a clue as to the wheel's real output value.
That's even weirder. It really shouldn't alter the ffb at all!
But you're sure it's not placebo?
I mean I felt differences in my luts for assetto corsa to then see that I was still driving the same one because content manager didn't save the change hehe.
That's even weirder. It really shouldn't alter the ffb at all!
But you're sure it's not placebo?
I mean I felt differences in my luts for assetto corsa to then see that I was still driving the same one because content manager didn't save the change hehe.
Well the elimination of the FFB at high values is 100% not placebo. It, too, is not like just turning down the force levels. Certain aspects of the FFB go away faster than others.
Anyway, the setting is not useful to improve FFB as we have all agreed, so better to leave it at default to avoid some other unintended consequence in the 50 other related settings that we or S397 might change at some point!
