F1 | Mercedes Running Controversial Steering System In Barcelona
- Thread starter Paul Jeffrey
- Start date
Yessir, heavily regulated to the point that only extreme levels of funding can overcome the wildly specific engineering obstacles required to bend the rules. That sir, is innovation.
Along with running nearly the same exact chassis for 6 years straight (half of them being slightly wider than before).
safi hellie
@Simberia
Because the fans get their knickers wet about it being a drivers championship (lol)........
* it is a constructors championship and always has been since year dot, the WDC became important to fans of drivers....drivers are about 10% of the package...
MotoGP is about 80% rider....or in Marcs case, 98%
Lewis ain't winning owt in a Williams..for example...
OMG, I always have questions and thoughts reacting in my mind without trying to use them or telling anyone about them so he/she can laugh.
I always had the question about what a skilled driver is.
You hear our generation (pre ABS, EBD, TC and ESP) talking about drivers who felt the limit of wheel lock, wheel spin or slide.
And could control, correct them and even make advantage of them.
I thought to my self, why not the drivers of the past generations for example thought that a good driver is a driver who had a control for example over the difference of speed between the tires, also making advantage of how much spin and thus turn the car can do, (I mean going back to before the complicated electronic differentials and even the mechanic ones, and also I mean controlling it through having, in stead of a circular steering wheel (now laugh) individual columns to steer and distribute acceleration and deceleration, like those rods you see in the cars in the beginning of 1900's).
One more idea was to be able to control the angle of the car against its vertical access to gain grip, like a motorcycle, This might be achieved by controlling the tyres camber or maybe the length of the springs on board.
Now back to the subject, someone came with the idea that drivers can control car setups on board to suit the upcoming part of the track, like brake bias, and now MAYBE toe in (if those speculations are right). It's interesting in my mind when the development innovates retro things instead of always going towards faster, stronger and more expensive.
(Now you can laugh).
I always had the question about what a skilled driver is.
You hear our generation (pre ABS, EBD, TC and ESP) talking about drivers who felt the limit of wheel lock, wheel spin or slide.
And could control, correct them and even make advantage of them.
I thought to my self, why not the drivers of the past generations for example thought that a good driver is a driver who had a control for example over the difference of speed between the tires, also making advantage of how much spin and thus turn the car can do, (I mean going back to before the complicated electronic differentials and even the mechanic ones, and also I mean controlling it through having, in stead of a circular steering wheel (now laugh) individual columns to steer and distribute acceleration and deceleration, like those rods you see in the cars in the beginning of 1900's).
One more idea was to be able to control the angle of the car against its vertical access to gain grip, like a motorcycle, This might be achieved by controlling the tyres camber or maybe the length of the springs on board.
Now back to the subject, someone came with the idea that drivers can control car setups on board to suit the upcoming part of the track, like brake bias, and now MAYBE toe in (if those speculations are right). It's interesting in my mind when the development innovates retro things instead of always going towards faster, stronger and more expensive.
(Now you can laugh).
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Well said. I'm inclined to say that Mercedes explored the semantics of the regulations with lawyers and consultants, and they will likely be using this system this year without repercussion.
I think the bigger issue here, that no one seems to be addressing, is that Mercedes may be mitigating the central thing Hamilton likes to moan about: tire wear! Is there just going to be radio silence now between 44 and the pit team? That's going to make for terrible TV!
Durge Driven
DD
You meant to say in your opinion
IMHO the majority here agree that a number of drivers could win WC if they had a Mercedes
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It's fully compliant with the technical regulations since it concerns the steering system, not the suspension per se.
safi hellie
@Simberia
You meant to say in your opinion
IMHO the majority here agree that a number of drivers could win WC if they had a Mercedes
I was being cheeky... it's what his more...vocal (mental) fans think though..
The day, when "steering wheels" in F1 were renamed into "yokes".
If this system is going to be legally usable in the season, they did find some brilliant stuff there and i want to f****** see it in action in an official event!
If this system is going to be legally usable in the season, they did find some brilliant stuff there and i want to f****** see it in action in an official event!
Well, it seems in F1 regs, it can justified by : they are just steering the wheels in one different extra Axis(there is no rule for that,grey area, and they can also [10.4.1] re aligned maximum two wheels's direction, this rule intention was to avoid 4 wheel steering but they are using it justify this! )! those moving parts and changeable parts are actually part of steering wheel not the suspension.
if you consider wheel's alignment part of the suspension just because the wheels are connected to suspension, you have to ban "brake bias adjustment during a session while a car is moving too "as the brakes literally connected to suspension arms! that's why they separated those things from suspension in their regs.
their argument again, is they are just steering the two front wheel in a new direction with a mechanical system ,none electronic powered and non hydraulic , as the rule said it shouldn't use them. the rules never mentioned that you can't steer the front wheel in a new axis! that was the loophole!
people shouldn't just read 10.2.3 and say it's illegal before they know what can be part of suspension in "F1" (i'm not talking about your road car or GT cars or nascar and such, only in F1 rules)or not just because it makes sense in other cars.
another example, when you steer the wheel normally the front wheels's toe (and also some other alignments)changes to a degree, is it allowed to steer or not? does it change the toe when you are moving or not? you can steer normally and the toe can changes because of it while you are in a moving car, so steering in other axises is not illegal and changing toe as the result of steering is not illegal, also even for steering normally you are changing the suspension, the suspension arms have to move to steer the frontwheels, is that illegal because we are moving/changing the arms? that's why they kept those parts as parts of steering system not the suspension. in their argument that "we just steering the front wheels in a new axis and the toe changes with it too, like steering the wheels in normal way". they are Lawgineers not mortal lawyers or engineers
*also other example of F1 innovation that the fans thought it's illegal just because in regs there was this at 2018 and 2019: in the area of Side mirrors you can not use aero and air flow devices(wings winglets), the teams said "oh our mirror it's not secure for safety sake(or we can not put the mirror there without using extra arms and such)we have to use 2 arm to keep it together and look those arms have weird shapes and it seems its side effect is a little aero gain! and they are legal, mercedes 2019 and redbull/ferrari 2020
*about complaints, if something couldn't be disallowed by current regs, the teams have to vote about it being a major exploit/loophole that is Dangerous for F1 future, good luck to them to get the major vote to make it illegal, because in 2021 it is disallowed from the start of its regs, that's why mercedes bring it to this season as their last bullet tor 2020.
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I don't understand how this is legal. If you're allowed to have a mechanical system to change your suspension geometry then why can't you have a mechanical system to change your wing angles? Why can't you have a mechanical system to change your tyre pressures? Mechanical system to adjust ride height. Mechanical system for this, for that, etc. etc....Weird.
It seems, it's a "steering system" per rule and not a "powered device" to change suspension geometry. It's a loophole in the rule book, because it has not enough shielding rules in regard for other influencing factors, like aero does, for example, but yeah, pretty absurd and they seem to have a pretty brilliant team of people, that understands the rules too good.
I understand it's not a powered device but then why aren't you allowed to use a mechanical, unpowered device to adjust front wings, rear wings, ride height, etc. You can use shafts and linkages to adjust things mechanically, non-powered. I don't understand why this steering wheel situation may be an exception. You're probably correct in that it must be some strange loophole.It seems, it's a "steering system" per rule and not a "powered device" to change suspension geometry. It's a loophole in the rule book, because it has not enough shielding rules in regard for other influencing factors, like aero does, for example, but yeah, pretty absurd and they seem to have a pretty brilliant team of people, that understands the rules too good.
When Ferrari found loopholes in the engine rules in both 2018 and 2019, the FIA shut them down. Let's see what happens with the Merc.
Because there are other rules for those areas that are not considered as steering wheel system, the rules in aero sections clearly specifically said any movable aero parts that can change shape or can be active/inactive are illegal except the upper flap of the rear wing. the rule dictates that no matter how you change their shape or position (powered non-powered or mechanical) it is not allowed to have movable/changeable aero parts.
also there are movable things that can have aero advantage, like the suspension arms that can moves and change position in different situations, and because they are in the way of air flow they make them more aerodynamic, they are not illegal because their main job is to keep the car together and they have their separated rule for those arms. there are general rules and then also written exceptions and non exception ones for other area of the car. and those things you have written in your post literally are in those non exception things that are not allowed.
Also about the Ferrari engine, FIA didn't shut it down! they just put extra sensors in their engine (the energy recovery system and energy deployment system) in 2018 and fuel pressure meter(2019) and then stated the current rules more clearer again(not changing it, just stating it again that they shouldn't go beyond the threshold during those measuring phase). if their performance stopped back then it was themselves doing it, the ferrari.
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Wing flex was used to positively manipulate air flow, for example, before rules changed the deal quite a bit, so there are also other things, that are used around the rules, until the FIA reacts. Rulebooks are always created and made bigger by people, bypassing existing rules. And these cars use other devices, that are trying to loop around the rulebook, but this Mercedes system is a very big deal, because we can see it so easily, yet not evaluate its type of applied ruleset.
Because nobody tried it yet, or really thought about it, so there is no default or standard of operation for that, and no mentioned shielding points in the rulebook, to clamp down on building such a system.
Because engine systems manipulation is a very explored field in restrictions by rules, and hitting a smaller margin of freedom to work with. So many teams have tried to do something on the propulsion system, that there are less loopholes to begin with and the FIA can find points, that are applying to the "cheating" device way easier.
We could argue, Mercedes does a better job, thinking outside the box, right now, but it's interesting, that Ferrari doesn't really publicy intervenes, right now. Just saying.
For me there is only a marginal difference between breaking the rules and breaking the spirit of the rules. I think it's clear that the rules intended that no manipulation of the toe etc. is allowed during the race, Mercedes have got around that rule due to the wording of it. It's not really innovation, they aren't inventing something new, they are just manipulating the rule set. The hole will be closed just as it was for the double defused and the f-duct.
Not that much effective like that but it's a clever solution:
Go there:
Sky Sports F1
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i believe it was the latest video by ted on that channel, he describes it a little bit. i don't remember the exact name of that video but it was about why mercedes is fast or something similar
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