Downshifting issues

[Luke Maney]

During the Group C race at Spa I was not only battling with the competition but persistent miss-shifts while downshifting.
(I checked rFactor after the race and it shifted just fine...no miss-shifts)
To deal (manage) with the issue I slowed down my down-shifts which seemed to help. During practice in the days leading up to the race I didn't experience any problems.
So what's up with Raceroom, is anybody else having this issue?

 

[BrunoBæ]

While down-shifting it miss-shifts by not actually going into the next lower gear, but instead just a tinkle from a bell is heard. So then what happens is I have to activate the paddle more times then I should have to which then causes more shifts than I originally wanted locking the rear tires causing a spin. Anyway I think Ross and the other guys are right...some cars have preset shifting limits which prevents shifting too quickly?

If that is what happens then its as others have said the downshift prevention that cuts in.
Pretty annoying in the 2 new group C cars - and as Ross mentions its worse in the lower gears where you often really needs a clean/fast downshift before a corner.

 

[Luke Maney]

If that is what happens then its as others have said the downshift prevention that cuts in.
Pretty annoying in the 2 new group C cars - and as Ross mentions its worse in the lower gears where you often really needs a clean/fast downshift before a corner.

Right, doing your downshifts while the down force from your rear wing is high is one key to quick laptimes (but don't share this tip, it's top secret.

 

[UMC 22]

It'd be nice to be able to switch it on/off as an option. I mean, I can understand modern cars having it but how would you go about adding downshift protection to a manual h-box? I'd rather deal with the consequences of my bad driving than have something minimising it for me. It's how we learn.

 

[BrunoBæ]

I mean, I can understand modern cars having it but how would you go about adding downshift protection to a manual h-box? I'd rather deal with the consequences of my bad driving than have something minimising it for me. It's how we learn.

Agree.
I consider the devs eager to implement this downshift protection as some kind of dev laziness or not to have the knowledge to separate which cars historically had it or which cars didnt.
A good example is iRacings Lotus 79 which to the best of my knowledge never had this irritating modern "feature" in RL implemented into its h-box.
But the iRacing staff didnt care if their implementation was historically incorrect.
Hehe I was close to be banned from iRacings forum because I ‎expressed my annoyance about this lousy "feature" rather harsh several times

 

[ICYHOT]

I was close to be banned

Now here's a surprise...

Unless I'm mistaken, I think it auto-blips if you have auto-clutch enabled. Can anyone else confirm?

Affirmative.

Quite a bit of semi-truths surrounding downshift protection in Raceroom here, so lets make it a bit clearer.

First of all, having donwshift protection isn't really a case of dev laziness but a simple necessity. Otherwise people would abuse engine braking to maximise the stopping capabilities of the cars. We've seen it happen when we didn't have dsp, that's why it had to be introduced in the first place.

With sequential gearbox cars the case is simple: If you try to shift down too early, i.e. the revs you'd shift into are higher than the gear's limit, there'll be a "beep", signalling that the electronic dsp prevented that shift.

With h-pattern cars there's two methods, depending on whether mechanical damage is enabled.
Mechanical damage disabled: The lower gear won't engage if target revs are too high and instead you'll hear a sound sample of the gears grinding, indicating that the shift failed. (A bit like trying to put in a gear without clutch irl.)
Mechanical damage enabled: The gear will engage even though target revs are too high, but your car will receive damage and lock up the rear wheels until safe revs are reached.

 

[BrunoBæ]

Now here's a surprise...
()
First of all, having donwshift protection isn't really a case of dev laziness but a simple necessity. Otherwise people would abuse engine braking to maximise the stopping capabilities of the cars. We've seen it happen when we didn't have dsp, that's why it had to be introduced in the first place.

With sequential gearbox cars the case is simple: If you try to shift down too early, i.e. the revs you'd shift into are higher than the gear's limit, there'll be a "beep", signalling that the electronic dsp prevented that shift.

With h-pattern cars there's two methods, depending on whether mechanical damage is enabled.
Mechanical damage disabled: The lower gear won't engage if target revs are too high and instead you'll hear a sound sample of the gears grinding, indicating that the shift failed. (A bit like trying to put in a gear without clutch irl.)
Mechanical damage enabled: The gear will engage even though target revs are too high, but your car will receive damage and lock up the rear wheels until safe revs are reached.

Eventhough your cocky remark about my possible iRacing banning I actually fully agree with you about the possible misuse if you could shift down as fast as you wanted in any car.
But if we take my Lotus 79 example from iRacing then it would be much more realistic if the shift down issue was solved just as in real life(and like you does mention with damage on).
If you in older racing cars by (brutal) force shifted down several times the gearbox became damaged.
Thats the way it should be solved in a "realistic" sim.

CatsAreTheWorstDogs: good old NR2003 had this feature!
I know it from its famous GTP mod where you would loose 1, 2 or 3 gears(or more) if you mistreated the gearbox.

So I keep to my oppinion that its a matter of dev laziness - or historically incompetence

 

[Roy Magnes]

First of all, having donwshift protection isn't really a case of dev laziness but a simple necessity. Otherwise people would abuse engine braking to maximise the stopping capabilities of the cars. We've seen it happen when we didn't have dsp, that's why it had to be introduced in the first place.

This was a common thing in Race 07, I bellieve. I think that is where the aliens were gaining the most time over us mere mortals in the different series I participated in back then.

 

[UMC 22]

This was a common thing in Race 07, I bellieve. I think that is where the aliens were gaining the most time over us mere mortals in the different series I participated in back then.

Yeah, I definitely remember it being a key technique on Mini Fridays when I ran the R07 club back then. Those were the days!

 

[Kennett Ylitalo]

Yeah, I definitely remember it being a key technique on Mini Fridays when I ran the R07 club back then. Those were the days!

Yup to a point when driving other sims it was guaranteed i would blow up the engine or the gearbox.. It taught some bad habits that are STILL with me. It was also a great way in a FWD car to really hear the braking force affecting the front tires and when it is about to lock up... These days i have to dial up the pre-load on the differential on pretty much every car as i still use 1st/2nd gear as a poor mans handbrake at times to flick the rear.. The current system is the best, it does not allow exploiting parts of the car that have to be indestructible for gameplay reasons (blowing up gearboxes does not really enhance the game experience).

 

[Denis Gicquel]

Now here's a surprise...

First of all, having donwshift protection isn't really a case of dev laziness but a simple necessity. Otherwise people would abuse engine braking to maximise the stopping capabilities of the cars. We've seen it happen when we didn't have dsp, that's why it had to be introduced in the first place.

I don't think those race cars need any engine braking at all. They have very efficient brakes and big wings so they already have excellent stopping capabilities.

Just have a look at this video:

You can see Jacques Laffite skiping gears at the end of the main straight at Monza. Alain Prost also said in one of his books that he could downshift directly from 5th to 2nd or 1st gear with his Renault Turbo F1 car.

 

[Kennett Ylitalo]

I don't think those race cars need any engine braking at all. They have very efficient brakes and big wings so they already have excellent stopping capabilities.

Just have a look at this video:

You can see Jacques Laffite skiping gears at the end of the main straight at Monza. Alain Prost also said in one of his books that he could downshift directly from 5th to 2nd or 1st gear with his Renault Turbo F1 car.

Manual single clutch and H-pattern gearboxes are different from the sequential we are using. Gearshifts take longer and using manual clutch is not as smooth as double-clutch galore. So instead of doing 3 blips and shifts, you use the high gear engine braking longer and then switch direct to smaller gear, the time between is spent pressing the clutch. Is useful with older cars still, you don't have to think about having mass transfer happen multiple times instead of just having it once. It is less things that can go wrong, smoother braking and entry. Dangers are hitting the low gear too early or too late; braking the engine or causing a rear lockup (this can still be used in r3e on low speed corners, using "wrong" revs for low gear will cause sudden increase in engine braking and causes a short lockup at driving wheels, poor mans handbrake that has saved me tons of times but probably also killed me a few times too many. Do not do this in a real car.)

Engine braking is after all "free" brakes: we are using air compressing in the cylinder to slow our car down. Theoretically, no wear. In practice, it wears down the drivetrain more than the engine.

 

[BrunoBæ]

I have to say that I dont agree that the use of engine braking in racing games is a mis-use.
I use it all the time to get the car to rotate at the entrance of a corner.
Because if you combine a shift down with the right diff coast value you can get the car to rotate(oversteer) at the corner entrance without having to overdo the steering wheel abuse.

 

[Case_]

I don't think those race cars need any engine braking at all. They have very efficient brakes and big wings so they already have excellent stopping capabilities.

More importantly, engine braking is effectively pointless in race cars. Unless your brakes can't get you at the edge of the traction (which I guess might happen is some old or American cars), you can't add any more braking on top of your braking - you just lose traction if you do, so you gain absolutely nothing.

 

[BrunoBæ]

If you say so

 

[Case_]

Either add something to the discussion or ...walk away singing happy songs about unicorns and rainbows.

 

[RasmusP]

More importantly, engine braking is effectively pointless in race cars. Unless your brakes can't get you at the edge of the traction (which I guess might happen is some old or American cars), you can't add any more braking on top of your braking - you just lose traction if you do, so you gain absolutely nothing.

The only thing that's pretty cool about engine braking is that you get a dynamic brake bias.
Nurburgring t1 is a good example.
If you slam into the 1st gear (gt3 cars) while turning in, the rear will become a bit unstable due to the slight engine brake "kick" that happens.
The result is a tighter turn in.
If you adjust the brake bias to behave the same at turn in, you will have oversteer for the whole braking distance.

Apart from this, I agree. And tbh this slight effect is maybe worth 0.03s. But it feels great to get this slightly tighter turn in behavior!

 

[Case_]

@RasmusP Good point, I guess. Though it's also a bit more unpredictable and IMO generally less controllable to use engine braking for stopping, unlike the brake pedal.

 

[RasmusP]

@RasmusP Good point, I guess. Though it's also a bit more unpredictable and IMO generally less controllable to use engine braking for stopping, unlike the brake pedal.

Absolutely! I'm not talking about using it for stopping. I'm only talking about being at 100% braking and then using a downshift to unsettle the rear a little for the turn in.
If you need this for all gears I'd recommend adjusting the brake bias

 

[BrunoBæ]

It is not a matter of a random "unsetteling the car".
If you as me have to exactly know what the car is doing at the entrance of a corner then you absolutely dont want to random "unsettle" anything.
Even "a little".
Using the engine brake map combined with adjusting the diff coast setting to get a sharp OVERsteer reaction at corner entry is the way to go.
If you want to control the "rotation"

Another thing is to blindly deduce too much from RL physics to game physics - which is entertaining but not allways logical sound.
Like saying that you can NOT get more brake effect from a car than activating the brake fully.
This is following the law of physics in RL yes - but the sim(plification) of a tiny part of RL physics that is happening in racing sims does absolutely NOT garantee that you can make such a deduction.
A few years back there was a similiar discussion inside the iRacing forum where it was actually possible to show via telemetry data that the negative longi acceleration (= deceleration) was higher when full braking was combined with downshifting(= engine braking).

So...

 

[Denis Gicquel]

It is not a matter of a random "unsetteling the car".
If you as me have to exactly know what the car is doing at the entrance of a corner then you absolutely dont want to random "unsettle" anything.
Even "a little".
Using the engine brake map combined with adjusting the diff coast setting to get a sharp OVERsteer reaction at corner entry is the way to go.
If you want to control the "rotation"

Another thing is to blindly deduce too much from RL physics to game physics - which is entertaining but not allways logical sound.
Like saying that you can NOT get more brake effect from a car than activating the brake fully.
This is following the law of physics in RL yes - but the sim(plification) of a tiny part of RL physics that is happening in racing sims does absolutely NOT garantee that you can make such a deduction.
A few years back there was a similiar discussion inside the iRacing forum where it was actually possible to show via telemetry data that the negative longi acceleration (= deceleration) was higher when full braking was combined with downshifting(= engine braking).

So...

Telemetry was maybe showing that some drivers do not master downshifting .

Anyway, just read those books from Ross Bentley ("Speed Secrets: Professional Race Driving Techniques" is a good start) and you will see what a former professional racer (and now performance coach) thinks about engine braking with race cars.