Discussion | Direct Drive Wheels: The Good, Bad And The Ugly

[Paul Jeffrey]

Discussion time! Direct Drive wheels are becoming increasingly common in sim racing, but which one should you get?

Long gone are the days of just one or two niche manufacturers developing DD wheel solutions for a hardcore few. In 2020, the discerning sim racer has a wealth of choice when looking to make the switch to Direct Drive... but with so many options, and such a high price point, what constitutes a good purchase?

I am not going to even try and pretend I am an expert on all the different DD bases available today, far from it in fact, so I thought it worth throwing up this thread for our community to discuss their own experiences, and offer up advice to those still thinking over their next steps.

For the record, I run the Bodnar SimSteering V2 and absolutely love it; however at the price point they are asking, you will probably want to follow the route I took and purchase it second hand!

 

[RCHeliguy]

That was a pretty nice shot of the milky way! I have been to salt lake city several times and the mountains are beautiful. Also, thanks for reminding me about the brand rokina/samyang. It has some surprisingly good lens. I actually used the tokina 15-30 f2.8 to replace the nikkor 14-24 f2.8 because the latter has a greater Petzval field curvature, despite having twice the price. About time to check rokina's product line...

Rokinon is known for having low Coma and being a good value for night photography, otherwise the lens is not remarkable in any way. In fact as a 10mm prime it doesn't even hold up to my old Sigma 10-20mm zoom for landscape shots which is pretty bad. I would not recommend using a zoom lens for big sky night photography. Too many elements. For shots of the moon it doesn't matter, but for star fields you need to shoot about 1/20 sec. Any longer and the stars will start to look small lines or arcs. So as long as you can use an ISO that will take RAW image at 1/20 that you can work with, you have a starting point.

I've had good luck with Voighlander as a substitute for Ziess with manual focus primes. Great Bokeh and depth. My 58mm F1.4 takes great pictures and is pretty inexpensive.

For large zooms Nikon's newish 200-500mm AF-S does an excellent job without breaking the bank.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

The Simucube 2 isn't produced in the EU but you'd be purchasing directly from a choice of EU based dealers which would avoid the charges you are referring to, so you can add Granite Devices to the list.

Paul, do you know where they assemble and test them? Also may be the origin of motor?

 

[EsxPaul]

Paul, do you know where they assemble and test them? Also may be the origin of motor?

I believe the assembly and testing is done at the HQ in Finland.

As for the motor, Mika would never disclose the origin and you probably remember the guesswork and speculation that went on around the time of release. From memory, I think Delta and Omron were the notable mentions although never confirmed as true.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

I believe the assembly and testing is done at the HQ in Finland.

As for the motor, Mika would never disclose the origin and you probably remember the guesswork and speculation that went on around the time of release. From memory, I think Delta and Omron were the notable mentions although never confirmed as true.

I thought Finland is part of EU, must have missed Finexit.

 

[EsxPaul]

I thought Finland is part of EU, must have missed Finexit.

Ooops, my mistake

 

[Chrhun]

I thought Finland is part of EU, must have missed Finexit.

They call it "Fixit" here, but I don't think it's super popular option anyway.

 

[5-Card-Major]

And DSLR is a pain in the ass to carry in a trip plus a bag of lens and tripod. I went to mammoth cave last year, hoping to get some good shots of the cave. Then I was told tripod was not allowed down there and I found the cave is long and has a lot of narrow parts. That trip became the most painful memory of the whole year.

I also went to shot the night sky in a national park in the US during the summer. Afterwards the belts of my backpack got some salt deposit. I got one nice shot of the milky way and one nice shot of the moon. Then I never wanted to do that again because when I was walking towards my spot, I kept my heads down due to the heavy weight I was carrying. I missed the good part perfectly.

Now I just use google night sight on my pixel phone and my eye and my brain. If memory fades, I go again. I guess something is bond to be learnt in a hard way.

This thread is not about photography....thanks.

 

[Eckhart von Glan]

This thread is not about photography....thanks.

oh c'mon, boys will be boys

 

[azaralamouri]

I wish.

DD is a motor. VR is a screen.

Motors were invented 130 years before screens, and cost fraction of the cost of screens to make.

But again, I am no expert in technology or costs.

I'm just sitting on my soffa wondering why the DD market is extremely slow to progress comparing to VR, although both have equally small markets.

 

[metalnwood]

DD is a motor. VR is a screen.

Motors were invented 130 years before screens, and cost fraction of the cost of screens to make.

But again, I am no expert in technology or costs.

I'm just sitting on my soffa wondering why the DD market is extremely slow to progress comparing to VR, although both have equally small markets.

I bet you that the servo used in any of my DD wheels costs more to build than the screen in any of my VR headsets. How a DD servo motor could cost a fraction the price of a screen used in a VR headset because they have been made for longer is not really a valid way to compare.

For a start, if DD wheels sold in the numbers that VR headsets do then I think the prices would come down but higher prices are required to recoup from smaller numbers.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

DD is a motor. VR is a screen.

Motors were invented 130 years before screens, and cost fraction of the cost of screens to make.

But again, I am no expert in technology or costs.

I'm just sitting on my soffa wondering why the DD market is extremely slow to progress comparing to VR, although both have equally small markets.

I see it opposite. OSW DIY DD wheels started gaining popularity just 5-6 years ago. And look what progress they have made.

And most price comes from industrial motors they use, it's different market and not a small one, yet price is up high. Guess they are not as easy to make as screens after all.

 

[5-Card-Major]

I really like the SimXperience AccuForce Pro V2 wheel base and Fanatec CSL Elite LC pedals and rim, and I'll need a clamp for attaching to my PC desk. (@$1,100. OUCH....)

 

[azaralamouri]

I bet you that the servo used in any of my DD wheels costs more to build than the screen in any of my VR headsets. How a DD servo motor could cost a fraction the price of a screen used in a VR headset because they have been made for longer is not really a valid way to compare.

For a start, if DD wheels sold in the numbers that VR headsets do then I think the prices would come down but higher prices are required to recoup from smaller numbers.

What I said was just ideas re acting in my head. Not built on any experience.

But since you sound to be (like me) interested in VR and in driving sims, don't you feel that VR hides a new news every couple of months while sim racing hardware models get updated once every five to ten years?

 

[azaralamouri]

What I said was just ideas re acting in my head. Not built on any experience.

But since you sound to be (like me) interested in VR and in driving sims, don't you feel that VR hides a new news every couple of months while sim racing hardware models get updated once every five to ten years?

Talk VR:

We asked:

1- Higher resolutions. 4K per eye.
2- Bigger FOV. 210 degrees.
3- Higher refresh rate. 180 Hz
4- Mass production companies in the game.
5- New budget options. 299$ Samsung O+ today is comparable to 1000$ Vive Pro yesterday.
6- Portability just one HMD no pc no cables no sensor stations. 400 grams.
7- Technologies to save GPU performance. Direct 12x features.

We got what we asked for already.

Every two months of the last two years you hear a new surprise.




Talk sim racing hardware:

Not much in the last two years.


Here opinions might vary, while my heart loves the Simucube 2 for example, but it isn't a game changer. Game changers are something like a 199$ budget load cell by Thrustmaster, A 299$ versatile F1, GT fold-able cockpit by Next Level, a 388 $ FeelVR direct drive wheelbase. Some succeeded, some not.
Edit: How did I forget the companies fighting to make motion simulators main stream products? Like DOF reality or the other Swedish company I forgot its name.


I might and hope to be wrong, but in ten years VR will be something you can't think of today, while sim racing hardware will be exactly the same but one generation later with subtle improvements.

 

[azaralamouri]

I see it opposite. OSW DIY DD wheels started gaining popularity just 5-6 years ago. And look what progress they have made.

And most price comes from industrial motors they use, it's different market and not a small one, yet price is up high. Guess they are not as easy to make as screens after all.

Exactly our question now is what you said very last.

We have no idea how much they cost make, but I trust that if they were cheap you would have found many companies jumping to make DD wheels and take their share from that profit. But you don't see many makers which means the margin isn't big.

Maybe I'm repeating my self (I repeat I don't know more that a little), but I still tend toward my opinion:


Motors as we studied in physics are mechanical parts, have the same principle since 100 years, magnets, electricity, motion...etc. There are thousands? hundreds of thousands of motors makers in the world. Maybe a DD is so strong or has no lag but it's still mechanics, metals.

VR is screens, sensors, processors. Have you ever watched those machines that make them? working on ATOMIC level? in an environment where they don't allow more than a few dust particles to escape their filters.


Sorry if I spammed the topic with my too many thoughts.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Sounds like to you price decrease is the main "game changer".
It's not likely to happen in niche sim market, look at sim pedals.
If mass produce companies like TM and Logitech find a way to make them cheap it won't be the same strength or quality, same as their pedals today comparing to HE, HPP, etc.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Exactly our question now is what you said very last.

We have no idea how much they cost make

I think coming from OSW DIY background we might have a pretty good idea. The cheapest Small Mige, which is nowhere near what SC2 packages now was around $300 shipped direct from China factory. Lenze and Kollmorgen motors were shooting into $1K range.
Electronics for controller and PSU to drive that beast are not cheap either. It all adds up.
Honestly, for what they are sold today, it's a very good value, I don't see manufacturers enjoying exuberant margin there.

 

[5-Card-Major]

I really like the SimXperience AccuForce Pro V2 wheel base and Fanatec CSL Elite LC pedals and rim, and I'll need a clamp for attaching to my PC desk. (@$1,100. OUCH....)

*BUMP* Anyone? Thoughts.... Thanks.

 

[azaralamouri]

*BUMP* Anyone? Thoughts.... Thanks.

Hi mate you repeated again what wasn't clear in the first time.

Are you asking for opinions about those products quality or value?

Haven't tried stepper AF V2 but everyone speaks highly about its durability and its performance is way way above any belt wheel, but still servo SC2 performs better (no idea how it compares to servo Fanatec DD1 and 2 and the new stepper Chinese DD).

CSL LC were one of the smartest choices thanks to good quality and acceptable price. Fanatec products feel almost premium/ luxury with lower prices than the counterparts that custom make their stuff. Fanatec electronics durability isn't so reputable at least in my opinion but pedals are less prone to brakes and failures than other sim racing equipment (correct me if I'm wrong guys).

Now there are many other new options for load cell pedals with prices above and below CSL (Other guys can add more here).

CSL rim? why? Accuforce comes with a circular/oval budget rim that is built like a tank and works for every car style. But I love CSL rims anyway. But their QR system barely can stand a DD power.

What else? DD on a table/desk? It's like ceramic brakes for a Toyota Corolla. Buy a rig before you buy a DD. (Am I wrong guys?).

What else? 1100$? Mate only AF V2 costs 999$.

 

[metalnwood]

@azaralamouri In a way the servo's have already done what you suggest VR has done but it did it before VR and thats why it looks like it's not moving on price. It is an established technology while VR is not there yet. One needs to continue to move, the other doesn't in terms of technology. What we would like to pay for something is another discussion.

Also they are more than just metals. they also have sensors and processors, much better quality power supplies, housings and bearings. It's more than windings of copper. Technology has improved and so has the cost of servo systems. I wouldn't want to imagine what it would have cost years gone by for a servo of the quality we have in the SC2 with the electronics. Many times more than what we are paying now.

Outside of price my DD is so much better than the belt and gear wheels I have had before, it's leaps and bounds. The software/sim have to catch up, there is very little the hardware can do now to progress, it already spends a lot of time trying to fix average signals from the computer. Unlike VR which has a lot of technology to improve. The fact is that you are only seeing servo's now but the technology was already established and quite refined.

I think the rest of what you talk about won't improve. It's not like we dont have many options for pedals, rigs etc, we do. They just cost $$. You are basing improvement on the cost of things but racing is a small economy, it's much smaller than even something like VR now selling millions of units. The other thing is the manufacturers are already catering well for what the market wants. Us who want the high end stuff are a small minority in what was already a minority. The majority of people are probable not even thinking about their pedals or that more expensive pedals could give them more consistent braking, they just don't know and are happy in their ignorance, so to speak

If we didn't have all the options I would agree with you but we do have the options and I understand that in small markets sometimes the prices will not be what we want.