details in feel (DD Drive Wheel) ?

[stigs2cousin]

Hy there,

I´ve been researching DD Wheels for three months now, but iI still have questions:

lots has been said/written about the "level of detail" modern DD Wheels can provide.

What I´m still curios about is the "feel of the road surface".

From my everyday car i´m used to feel the surface of the tarmac, feel the change in roughness and grip, feel the ruts in the road and if the tarmac changes even before the front tyres start sliding.
( Its a GT86 with good coilovers and an agressive alignment which was tuned for the Nordschleife)

My T300 clearly can´t provide that, many tracks and mods provide a very good look of the surface, but i can´t feel the
tarmac patch i can clearly see.
Same with the "rubber patches" used to seal cracks. ( i don´t know the correct English term, in german its "Bitumenstreifen")

IRL I can feel those in the front wheels of my car or a motorcycles front tyre.

So, can a good DD Wheel ( I´m thinking Simucube right now) deliver this kind of feedback?

Of course a test drive would be best, but that is not the only thing covid ****ed up for us this year.

I´d like to hear your opinions/ experiences on this matter,

MFG Carsten

 

[Tom_Hampton]

For that, I dial as much caster and as little toe into my real cars as possible.
That may compromise geometry for ultimate grip,
but more feedback adds confidence when steering gets busy.
On cars with front struts, that often requires aftermarket parts and occasional grinding,
which is no problem in the U.S. but might be with TÜV..


After finding a racing seat that fit me well (an ancestor of the Momo START),
I moved it with me from car to car. Lacking natural talent,
I must be able to relax and feel as much via the seat as possible.
Also, sitting lower improves helmet clearance.

Agree on both counts. Although I prefer a small amount of toe out in front. But, caster certainly increases centering forces.

Race seats contribute quite a bit of feel. Mine is bolted directly to the floor pan, and has precious little padding between me and the aluminum. For all intents my sit bones are in direct contact with the car body. There's nothing my butt doesn't feel.

Real racecars are noisy, bumpy places. Most people think somethings wrong the first time they get to ride in one.

 

[stigs2cousin]

Hold your horses, gentlemen

Though I concure with both of you, please remember we´re talking about my dayly driver here.

It´s equipped with the suspension upgrades and alignment one can get roadlegal if you "know someone who knows someone"
That is KW V3 coilovers with camber plates and various poly bushings.

But main topic was how to get the most out of the simucube2.
I´m not satisfied with roadfeel yet, theres much experimenting with filter settings to do.

MFG Carsten

 

[blekenbleu]

we´re talking about my dayly driver here.

I was also writing about my daily driver, one that would also be driven e.g. to and from Mont-Tremblant, QC and Sebring, FL.
Just because a racing seat can provide a lot of feedback does not mean it should be uncomfortable, in fact the opposite.
Driving something dramatically different on track and daily had proven too confusing for me.

But main topic was how to get the most out of the simucube2

Indeed, and preserving unconfounded steering feel fidelity was key to sustaining the driving illusion for me.
Rather than gripping rims, I hold them between fingertips and find other effects thru the wheel distracting.
Given that true G forces are forfeit, I opt to substitute unrealistic haptics elsewhere,
e.g brake pedal vibration for braking and shakeseat actuators delivering feedback from 4 corners,
where tradeoffs between forces and tire slippage get confounded.
Ideally, I should get or make a G seat, to separate force and tire slippage haptics.

Given the large dynamic range of Simucube 2, you might be able to amplify road feel effects without
appreciably masking steering effects by also further amplifying those, e.g. simulating reduced power steering assist.
That can feel more "natural" with quickened steering ratio.

 

[Tom_Hampton]

But main topic was how to get the most out of the simucube2.
I´m not satisfied with roadfeel yet, theres much experimenting with filter settings to do.

MFG Carsten

True, but that question was posed by comparison to real-life. The point was that what you think you felt IRL doesn't really come through the wheel. And both my and Blekenbleu's response was, "that doesn't really come from there." The rest of the point was with respect to real race cars on real race tracks. Remember, we aren't driving daily drivers in Sims. What you "think" is going on, is really an amalgam of visual, inner-ear, pressure, and other vibratory sensations coming from "everywhere".

Even with Gobs and gobs of money we can't replicate all of that. So, it comes down to separating, and spreading the feedback information into as many different places as possible, without overwhelming the feedback through the wheel. As well as....deciding what provides value, and what does not.

Similar to BlekenBleu, I've opted for tactile feedback on seat and pedals for G, Slip, and Lock effects...as well as immersion types of things like road impacts, kerbs, etc. This is much more effective than trying to pass all of that through the wheel. This gives the ability to separate out what's happening on the corners of the car rather than try and simulate over/under-steer through the wheel...which is COMPLETELY un-natural.

 

[stigs2cousin]

So,
much inroads made on the roadfeel front.

I´ve researched a lot in the forums and than tried and tested from there.

As stated above it´s not exactly what I wanted but it helps me to be much more consistant.

Am I 1700 Euros faster? Certainly not.
Does it help me with driving better? Yes, it does.

MFG Carsten

 

[blekenbleu]

much inroads made on the roadfeel front.

What has worked for you, mostly tweaking in-game or True Drive?

 

[AccAkut]

I was also writing about my daily driver, one that would also be driven e.g. to and from Mont-Tremblant, QC and Sebring, FL.
Just because a racing seat can provide a lot of feedback does not mean it should be uncomfortable, in fact the opposite.
Driving something dramatically different on track and daily had proven too confusing for me.

Indeed, and preserving unconfounded steering feel fidelity was key to sustaining the driving illusion for me.
Rather than gripping rims, I hold them between fingertips and find other effects thru the wheel distracting.
Given that true G forces are forfeit, I opt to substitute unrealistic haptics elsewhere,
e.g brake pedal vibration for braking and shakeseat actuators delivering feedback from 4 corners,
where tradeoffs between forces and tire slippage get confounded.
Ideally, I should get or make a G seat, to separate force and tire slippage haptics.

Given the large dynamic range of Simucube 2, you might be able to amplify road feel effects without
appreciably masking steering effects by also further amplifying those, e.g. simulating reduced power steering assist.
That can feel more "natural" with quickened steering ratio.

I drove a Lupo with no power steering for a decade.. it was the most direct steering I have ever felt while driving (direct in the sense of feedback, the steering ratio was huge). No need to brake test the road for ice, you'd feel it immediatly manourvering at walking speeds, front end lift at higher speeds etc. I was on the rainy Nordschleife with it once and got a little caught out by weight transfer oversteer at Eschbach but instinctively countersteered.

Now I got a SC2 Pro with a 350mm rim (Momo Prototipo), and run that at only 20% FFB output in AC (100% in Truedrive), and it feels pretty fine and similar. Lupo is not a race car lol but the nuances feel similar, including that oversteer at Eschbach.

 

[stigs2cousin]

These are the settings i use in the moment, they are feeling quite good.

But as I know me ill keep on tinkering.

It´s astonishing how the type of steering wheel changes the feel, in the momnet i´m using a very light 3drap GT3 wheel and a dished 350 mm OMP
which feels double the weight.
The OMP is much "softer", it seems to dampen the details.

MFG Carsten

( Note to self:
before the next online trackday need to lern HeelnToe. )

Edith: damned, the file is to large and won´t upload. ill try to find another way.

 

[Tom_Hampton]

before the next online trackday need to lern HeelnToe. )

Good pedal setup is helpful to learn heal-toe, initially. Once you get the hang of it, its less important. You want a nice stiff brake pedal. If its too soft, you'll have a hard time keeping stead brake pressure when you roll the throttle. The brake pedal when at threshold pressure should be 6mm higher than the throttle. Also, the pedal edges should be pretty close together. My real pedals are ~22mm apart. As you get better at it, you'll be able to heel-toe at lighter pressures, and the pedal geometry won't matter so much. But, when you first start...these things help a lot.

 

[stigs2cousin]

can´t find a way to show "screenshots", so here is the source of my basic settings:
from there small changes by feel.
The killer change for me enabling gyro, it emediatly clicked for me.

The thread and additional information:

Assetto Corsa and Simucube 2

Could anyone who is happy with their combination of settings for AC please post them here. I could never get it to feel right with my G29 but would like to give it another chance with the SC2 Pro. Any tips or other thi…

community.granitedevices.com

MFG Carsten

 

[stigs2cousin]

Good pedal setup is helpful to learn heal-toe, initially. Once you get the hang of it, its less important. You want a nice stiff brake pedal. If its too soft, you'll have a hard time keeping stead brake pressure when you roll the throttle. The brake pedal when at threshold pressure should be 6mm higher than the throttle. Also, the pedal edges should be pretty close together. My real pedals are ~22mm apart. As you get better at it, you'll be able to heel-toe at lighter pressures, and the pedal geometry won't matter so much. But, when you first start...these things help a lot.

The pedal positioning was more important than i thought iniatially.
That made a huge difference.

Thank you very much

Now for the hard part: Practice.



MFG Carsten

 

[jamescarruthers]

With heel-toe; learning on a real car has the bonus of feeling the car lurch as you pull up the clutch (if you did it wrong)

I guess the bonus of the sim is that you can punch the throttle quite hard without worrying about damaging the engine or feeling like you're abusing the car mechanically.

 

[Tom_Hampton]

With heel-toe; learning on a real car has the bonus of feeling the car lurch as you pull up the clutch (if you did it wrong)

I guess the bonus of the sim is that you can punch the throttle quite hard without worrying about damaging the engine or feeling like you're abusing the car mechanically.

That's what Rev limiters are for!

 

[mrexcitement71]

For me going from a CSW V2.5 to a DD1 , the biggest difference to me was not so much the ffb feel and the max force but the precision .
I am able to place the car much more accurately and with confidence and repeatability now.

 

[jamescarruthers]

That's what Rev limiters are for!

The poor clutch plate probably doesn’t like that situation much though

 

[stigs2cousin]

With my real car I still have to modify either pedals or steering wheel.
Since i can´t get near enough to the wheel without compromising pedal position
it´s" a little cramped" down there.

But every somewhat easy solution will not pass inspection around here.
( that´s a disadvantage of living in Germany)

The only remotely possible solution would be to go 8/10 racecar with rollbar, harness, and bucket seat.
Than it would be possible to delete the Airbags and use the necessary dished steering wheel.
But for an only car and dayly driver thats not an option for me.

On another note:

on both presets ( for Gt3 and OMP wheel) I have reduced damping to a very small amount.
It made a difference with road feel, in Rijeca I now can feel the difference in roadtexture when going full throttle over it.
(MX5Cup car with GT3 wheel)
Lotus 49 on LA Canyons with the big OMP does feel much detailed and more comunicativ to, now its a breeze ( and quite fun) to keep it on the edge of adhesion.
Till now I have not experimentd with force reconstruction and torque bandwith filter.
But we will be locked down again the day after tomorrow, so this will be happening

MFG Carsten

 

[Tom_Hampton]

With my real car I still have to modify either pedals or steering wheel.
Since i can´t get near enough to the wheel without compromising pedal position
it´s" a little cramped" down there.

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish with your DD?

 

[stigs2cousin]

I wanted to replicate the feel i rembered ( well, a little bit dreamed of) from my real car.
As some people predicted in this thread that did not happen as I wished.

On the flipside the Simucube improved thew roadfeel in a great way.
I havn´t touched ground yet in the settings department but the experimentation lead to massive improvements.
I just did some trial runs over the same downhill in LA Canyons with different Torque bandwith filter settings and found out
for me that the higher the number the softer the roadsurface feedback becomes.
( Tested with the Lotus 49 and a big and heavy steering wheel with quite strong FFB.)
As long as the hands can take it will run this filter at zero.
I do feel them after an hour of experimenting, so i have to keep that in mind for longer races.

MFG Carsten

 

[Tom_Hampton]

I wanted to replicate the feel i rembered ( well, a little bit dreamed of) from my real car.
As some people predicted in this thread that did not happen as I wished.

Sorry, my bad....by DD I meant Daily Driver, not Direct Drive.

With my real car I still have to modify either pedals or steering wheel.
Since i can´t get near enough to the wheel without compromising pedal position
it´s" a little cramped" down there.

I was trying to understand what mods you were trying to make to your real car, and what you were hoping to accomplish?

 

[stigs2cousin]

The steering wheel in the GT86 is telescopic, but only for a few centimeters.

To achieve a good reach to the steering wheel AND have the leg room for easy Heel´n´Toe i´d have to pull the
wheel another 5-8cm at least so I could shove the seat back for at least three clicks.

Since in Germany you can´t delete any airbags without going the 3/4 racecar route as described above this is not going to happen for me.

So when I have the build up muscle memory required on the sim rig I will try to find a modification to the accelerator to achieve the same in the real world. ( Don´t even think of modifiing the brake assembly)
And even that could be a problem at inspection.
German TÜV is no joke !!

MFG Carsten