Debate: The Rights and Wrongs of the Verstappen Penalty

Ruy Horta · Oct 25, 2017

Turk said:
That's all well and good but it will never happen, you're basically asking people to take unnecessary risks for your entertainment. It's not fair or right to ask another person to do that. There's no need to make a dangerous track just to discourage drivers from exceeding track limits. Just enforce the rules that are already there. That's all that needs to be done here, enforce the rules.

Racing is risk, if you don't want to take risk don't race.
There are ways to make tracks less forgiving without killing the driver.

This is just one way where regulation destroys something - good intensions and all.

You don't have to ask people to race, people will always race, they are attracted to the speed and the risk. It is the business of racing that wants to mitigate risk, it is a business thing not a race thing.

Even if you have half the grid die each year in F1, you'd have new guys lining up. What would be wring is business people earning billions on the back of those dead boys (and girls). But if you give the choice to those who want to race, they will still want to race.

...and again, not asking for Deathrace 2000, but tracks with risk are what make racing, not playtracks without risk.

Turk · Oct 25, 2017

Ruy Horta said:
Even if you have half the grid die each year in F1, you'd have new guys lining up. What would be wring is business people earning billions on the back of those dead boys (and girls). But if you give the choice to those who want to race, they will still want to race.

F1 wouldn't be commercially viable if drivers kept dying. They do motorbike racing on public roads here in Ireland (closed roads, organised events) and people die doing it all the time, it's got a loyal fanbase but it doesn't get any public attention other than for it being deadly dangerous and people asking for it to be banned because so many people die.

The reason we have all these safety measures in F1 is because people started to be outraged that their heroes were dying horribly right in front of their eyes. The fact is there would be huge outrage if the likes of Hamilton or Verstappen died in an accident that could be avoided. But the main reason it will never happen is because the insurance companies simply won't insure an event, or anything, if they think there's too much risk involved. Without insurance there's no F1 as a business or sport. There is absolutely no chance they'll ever take away safety measures, you just have to come to terms with that fact. Unless society collapses, then we can do whatever we want and there'll be no insurance companies to stop us.

Ruy Horta · Oct 25, 2017

Turk said:
F1 wouldn't be commercially viable if drivers kept dying. They do motorbike racing on public roads here in Ireland (closed roads, organised events) and people die doing it all the time, it's got a loyal fanbase but it doesn't get any public attention other than for it being deadly dangerous and people asking for it to be banned because so many people die.

The reason we have all these safety measures in F1 is because people started to be outraged that their heroes were dying horribly right in front of their eyes. The fact is there would be huge outrage if the likes of Hamilton or Verstappen died in an accident that could be avoided. But the main reason it will never happen is because the insurance companies simply won't insure an event, or anything, if they think there's too much risk involved. Without insurance there's no F1 as a business or sport. There is absolutely no chance they'll ever take away safety measures, you just have to come to terms with that fact. Unless society collapses, then we can do whatever we want and there'll be no insurance companies to stop us.

I cannot argue with your reasoning, but it is still the mix of safety steps taken to reduce risk that go too far and limit the sport. Supercars imho are a good example of a series that still allows for pure racing, pushing the limits and demanding its toll.

F1 has become boring, I stopped watching it during the days of Damon Hill. Nothing about that guy, but more about the state of the sport and it only got worse.

A guy like Verstappen will push the limits, he did so in F3, and will do so in F1. He will be controversial, but not boring. OTOH a little controversy is good for publicity. The F1 circus will not suffer by this little "storm" proven by the discussion on this forum.

State of the sport when most of the interesting stuff happens off track....

iSappy · Oct 25, 2017

Honestly, people going on about other drivers running wide etc, Max himself has been doing that too... and he didn't get penalized for that either. I'm pretty sure he ran wider than anyone else in turn 19 too. Max took it one step further in an all or nothing move on Kimi and got penalized for it. He would've had to give back the position without a time penalty if it wasn't on the final lap so it's completely justified. I like Max's racing a lot, but Imagine the outrage if Hamilton did it on Vettel for a podium finish... or if anyone did it to Max these same people would be screaming penalty, it's just how the sport goes.

billymitchell · Oct 25, 2017

No debate. He cut a corner at the apex to gain position on an opponent. They threw the book at him.

The alternative (challenging Kimi with the threat of car contact to push him wide) is both more dangerous, more legal, and more entertaining.

MoerasGrizzly · Oct 25, 2017

Ruy Horta said:
...and again, not asking for Deathrace 2000, but tracks with risk are what make racing, not playtracks without risk.

Thing is, drivers don't have an issue with safety regulations - but they really, really hate tracklimit restrictions.

Knoxstar · Oct 25, 2017

Wouldn't have worked at Monaco or Singapore....nuff said.

muzikant · Oct 25, 2017

tired of FIA..... bla...bla..bla...

they should thank max, without max it is boring

paracletus · Oct 26, 2017

Ole Marius Myrvold said:
So, the retired F1 drivers Brundle, Di Resta (though, might not be completely retired from F1, who knows), Mika Salo don't count?
Or the active driver Hamilton?

Always interested to hear what the drivers say but try to form an unbiased opinion. What did LH have to say, missed that.
Can see the argument on both sides; it was an exceptional bit of driving on the last lap but a disappointing end.
Watching live it was impressive. I doubt they'd have noticed the infringement 20 years ago; looked marginal from what i saw.
Anyway, this will probably result in some changes for next year so some good will come from it.

Coffer · Oct 26, 2017

iSappy said:
Honestly, people going on about other drivers running wide etc, Max himself has been doing that too... and he didn't get penalized for that either. I'm pretty sure he ran wider than anyone else in turn 19 too. Max took it one step further in an all or nothing move on Kimi and got penalized for it. He would've had to give back the position without a time penalty if it wasn't on the final lap so it's completely justified. I like Max's racing a lot, but Imagine the outrage if Hamilton did it on Vettel for a podium finish... or if anyone did it to Max these same people would be screaming penalty, it's just how the sport goes.

Verstappen did actually get a warning in qualifying for turn 19. He was the only driver warned for that the entire weekend, and considering how much he extended compared to the rest of the field, it's more than reasonable

Martin Maaskant · Oct 26, 2017

The penalty in itself was deserved. He passed Kimi outside of track limits. But when you looked what happend in the race where a lot of drivers did moves like that then I think the FIA messed up. Also the way they did it was not good for the sport. It would be a lot smarter PR wise to let Verstappen to the stage and hand him the penalty after the podium. There would be some fuzz but a lot less I imagine. I also read in the media that some Dutch so called fans made some death threats to Mika Salo. That is so wrong I can't find the words to express that. I'm a F1 fan since 1992 and what I always liked about the sport is that stands are crowded with all sorts of fans. And that, in general, a good move from the competition is rewarded. The behaviour from those so called fans are totally unacceptable.

guitargamery · Oct 26, 2017

ya i agree was clearly out of the track, and thank God that the stewarts didnt let that go, would be a travesti..lol was funny to see him(max) in the room before the podium..and when he looked to raikkonen( as he arrived) Max knew right away what was going on because he knew that he was being sneaky on that move to 3rd place..was hilarious to be honest...sadly Lewis won

Stefan Woudenberg · Oct 26, 2017

Ari Antero · Oct 27, 2017

paracletus said:
I doubt they'd have noticed the infringement 20 years ago

Hilarious statement. I don`t think if MadMax raced 20 years ago cutting was a problem.

François Strat · Oct 27, 2017

gamer19 said:
For safety reasons.

But what is the acceptable limit for "safety" ? ...
24 furious guys, launched at the same time, with the fastest car you know, and less than 2 hours to finish first ... I mean, even if they were walking it could become dangerous ^_^

gamer19 · Oct 27, 2017

François Strat said:
But what is the acceptable limit for "safety" ? ...
24 furious guys, launched at the same time, with the fastest car you know, and less than 2 hours to finish first ... I mean, even if they were walking it could become dangerous ^_^

Last time I have checked... there have been 20 cars only. }-)

François Strat · Oct 28, 2017

On the last 25 years, they have been between 20 and 26 drivers on the grid... You also need all the names maybe ?

gamer19 · Oct 28, 2017

Man... seems like you're really moody today, huh ?

You said :

François Strat said:
24 furious guys, launched at the same time, with the fastest car you know, and less than 2 hours to finish first ...

Do we have 24 cars "Launched" at the same time, that end race "2 hours later" ? We don't. Take a joke. And relax. End of discussion. Now get back to topic...