Chicken attitude or no skills on the [5]Ranked server?

[BrunoBæ]

I have tried some 20min races on the [5]Ranked server for the FR90xx Cup cars - but have been pretty disappointed of the lousy quality my few opponents have shown.

Its ofcourse a problem that there is very low participation in this class - but when somebody turns up then they have until now shown completely no skills.
Sometimes if they even does try to set a qual time they suddenly leave when my qual time is displayed on their screen.
But what is more common is they dont care to set a qual time for some reason.
And then when the start goes I have a lot of replays where these guys cant even make the start without pirouetting into the track barrier.

To be fair in my description there was actually one(1) driver who managed to only slightly touch the barrier at the start on Spa(Classic) and even managed to survive the Eau Rouge corner - but then managed to go off in about every corner on his first lap.
On the second lap he began to drive even more erratic probably because it frustrated him that I didnt wait for him.
He didnt survive 2 laps before he ESC´ed out of the race after even further crashes.

I have to admit that there was actually one(1) race at Monza where one driver was able to set a competent qual time (faster than me).
When I saw that I began to look forward to the 20min race.
The 3rd driver didnt care to set a qual time - but on the replay I could see that he tried to but had too many offs to succed.

When we started I prepared myself to carefully let the pole sitter take Monzas first R/L corner without messing him up.
Hehe but I didnt even get into this 1st corner myself because the completely unskilled 3rd driver plowed into me trying to divebomb the polesitter.

In an effort to try to maintain my own enthusiasm Im collecting replays of these laughable "races" to publish a compilation on Youtube of the quality of some of the MP drivers of Raceroom.

CatsAreTheWorstDogs: I think it was the owner Austin Ogonoski of the longgone PretendRaceCars who said that a lot of simracers have more or less no skills whatsoever.
But I cant remember if he said it was the majority.

 

[UMC 22]

But putting in a decent lap time is no guarantee that a driver knows how to race with others, or that he/she is clean, respectful and fair. Hotlapping is one thing, but racing is something else entirely, so you'll still end up with crap driving on public servers.

Also, should people like me who are decent racers but rarely perform well in qualifying be "penalised" by starting from the pits, or being dumped on servers with all the idiots? I don't really think that's fair.

At the end of the day, raw speed is not a measure of racing competence. That's clear from real-life racing too.

 

[BrunoBæ]

I have been in this kind of argumentation before inside iRacings forum - where I advocated that people should NOT be allowed to race if they couldnt even complete a single TT(Time Trial) on the same track as the race.
The speciality of TTs is that you have to drive 4-6 laps in succession without inc´s.
4-6 laps (=track dependent).

Every driver able to run a reasonable clean race will be able to do that EASILY(!) - while people who are just able to use a racing game as a hotlapping device which positions them again and again just before the starting line to try again even when they have crashed for the hundredth time before - will ofcourse not be able to.

CatsAreTheWorstDogs: Even inside iRacing there were a lot of people who were allowed to race - but was very aggressive against such proposals - because they wasnt able to complete even one Time Trial.

 

[MoerasGrizzly]

Quite honestly I cant find your "opposite effect" @Moeras.
Because just like Ross you are saying that because it costs money you make an extra effort to drive more carefully and clean.
And just like Ross you say that the end result is higher quality

It might mean higher quality, I just hate feeling this way

 

[Calvyn White]

Well, we all need to start somewhere.
For me it's not so much the skill level it's the mentality.

Having no understanding of one's capabilities leaves no room for improvement. And usually comes with a don't give an attitude.

For some who haven't got the skill but have the sense and understanding of their capabilities. And wish to have a fun, fair, clean race join a club, sign up to places like racedepartment to better their skills. They might be not as skilled but they wish to improve. These are too few.

Unfortunately, there are a lot more so-called drivers that really don't care enough to understand the concept of sim racing. That's too difficult for some to cope with it's a lot easier to be a pain in the ass.

I tried one of these ranked services just once. Taken out three times in one race. And to be honest I couldn't tell the difference from a multiplayer server and a ranked one.
Tried it once and I shall not be trying it again anytime soon.

 

[BrunoBæ]

Hehe if you saw some of my replays you will probably both laugh but probably also agree that if you cannot even start without pirouetting the car into the barrier still on the starting line then its not only the attitude that is wrong.
But Ill let you have it that its probably both the attitude but also (as I see it) a complete lack of skills.

CatsAreTheWorstDogs: I will probably be dissapointed again but I have begin practicing in the 911R because I can see on the ranked server that this GT3 class is very populated. So lets see

 

[Calvyn White]

No one starts sim racing with skills. This is gain over some time of weeks months and in some cases like me years. It's a lot of hard work and takes time.
What you are saying anybody slower than yourself has no skills. Anybody less skilled than yourself that puts themselves into a barrier is an idiot with no skills. I'm sorry but I can't see how you tar both with the same brush. Having a low skill level doesn't mean you're an idiot it just means you haven't got the skills yet.
Of course, you've got completely skilless idiots that just want to cause havoc and that's how some get their fun. Which I like to refer to as mentally deficient. And my God there's a lot of them.

Like I said we all gotta start somewhere. Skill levels will improve in time and with practice, racing.
I do not care if I'm racing against somebody has zero skills. As I know, as they do their level of driving is not high but I like to think most wish to improve and many do. This should be in encouraged by those that can give it. And should be not discouraged, penalized or punished by anyone. Skill level will not rise without actually getting on the track. Like I also said nobody starts sim racing with skills which should not be deemed inadequate from the better skilled. And as for penalizing or punishing lower skill levels is just ludicrous.
Being a plain speaker which some cannot handle which isn't my problem. So to be quite frank ridiculing a beginner with low skill levels in any shape or form is quite offensive to me and certainly unnecessary.

Having a complete lack of skills as you call it doesn't mean they're idiots. We have some fairly slow drivers in club meetings here at racedepartment their skill may be low but they are trying to get better and do the right thing by their fellow drivers in the best they known how and can, you've got to respect that, surely.

I do everything I can to help anyone on their way with the advice I can give and setups that I can share in the effort to improve another's skill level. Pretty much a thankless task. You can see that by the number of downloads of my setups compared to the likes that I've received. But that doesn't really matter. I'm just trying to do my bit to the community that helped me when I started. There are many more that help the community in one way or another in any and many ways they can. I am thankful for those that help me to help others. To me, this is what community club racing is all about. Which ultimately results in some excellent races.

90% I would say on public servers are for the mentally deficient and have no interest in improving on their level of skill whatsoever. The mentally deficient needs to be whittled out but unfortunately the mentally deficient have money and whos not going to take mentally deficient money. Other 10% still have no skill but they wish to improve and only see avenues in doing that by joining places like race department to improve skills and knowledge and of course race in a better atmosphere.

Don't blame the skill level, blame the inadequate ranking system that's in place that some choose to abuse. I feel for sure this system will improve in time. It's new and needs time to be looked at and approved upon. And with time I hope they figure out a method of eliminating the mentally deficient.

 

[BrunoBæ]

@Calvyn White
Either you dont read my posts or you just want to twist my words - because if you read what Im actually saying then I dont say that everybody slower than me are unskilled.
I refer to 1 guy faster than me and because I have a somewhat realistic eveluation of my own skills then I consider him ofcourse pretty skilled.
Then if you again want to read what I write the guy on Spa who eventhough he does slightly pirouet into the barrier at start is able to (somewhat) complete 2 laps - then I absolutely not judge him as completely unskilled.
He is/was way slower than me but was able to (somewhat) keep the car on track for 2 laps - so..

To be fair in my description there was actually one(1) driver who managed to only slightly touch the barrier at the start on Spa(Classic) and even managed to survive the Eau Rouge corner - but then managed to go off in about every corner on his first lap.
On the second lap he began to drive even more erratic probably because it frustrated him that I didnt wait for him.
He didnt survive 2 laps before he ESC´ed out of the race after even further crashes.

I have to admit that there was actually one(1) race at Monza where one driver was able to set a competent qual time (faster than me).
When I saw that I began to look forward to the 20min race.

And then to your point about that "we all gotta start somewhere" - my answer is that MP on a ranked server is NOT the place to start if you dont even know the track used.
And furthermore cant even start the car without crashing yourself and others within 5 sec.
Singleplayer mode is for that - at least if you take this hobby even somewhat serious.

Your claim that I say that all unskilled drivers are idiots speaks for itself.
So I dont want to waste my time on that.
If you is able to use the search function in this thread you can see that I only use this word one(1) time - and thats because a person is not able to complete one(1) qual lap on Monza and after that completely idiotic does plow into me allready before the first corner.

CatsAreTheWorstDogs: I have said several times in my posts here that I started this thread NOT because I have seen some goofy behaviour from time to time on this ranked server - but because I have been completely disappointed that I have not joined even one(1) race on this server where people did show even some basic skills - hehe exept one(1) driver who admitted was faster than me.

 

[Calvyn White]

I suppose I have been looking at what you were saying and seeing it as a generalisation and what it implies. Which probably was a little unfair of me you have my apology. But in general, I'm going to stand by what I have said. As I see no point in judging others on their abilities in such a manner and what it implies. I'm sorry but I find that just unfair and suggestive. And that is ridiculing others with less ability. I suppose what I'm saying is to be a little less judgemental and a little bit more tolerant. Which most of us are a bit guilty of, including me.
Like I said I'm a plain speaker I say it as I see it. Most can't cope with this so they decided to take offence instead. Please don't as no offence is intended.

 

[BrunoBæ]

Thats OK Calvyn.
And I admit that I was close to be pretty pissed off.
Because I dont think you was fair.

Because even from my first post I have again and again repeated that I would never have started this thread (at all!) if I have just been "normally" disappointed by some goofy MP drivers causing some accidents.
And be aware that I have not used it as some kind of "argument" that some of the complete unskilled drivers have damaged my "reputation" rating on this new Raceroom beta service.
Because this interesting rating has nothing to do with my disappointment.
Hehe and I can see that I have even upped this "reputation" - for some reason or another.

But anyway.
I just started this in a calculated slightly provocative way because I completely honest didnt suspect that the quality of drivers would be THAT low.

CatsAreTheWorstDogs: I have watched replays(spectator??) from MP races on pCars2 and have often been very entertained by the over-agressive driving and often intentional wrecking - but I have never seen so extremely lack of driving skills as on "our" ranked server.
Thats why.

 

[BrunoBæ]

Now I can see there is running a welcom´ed discussion in the official Raceroom forum about some of the above mentioned ranked server issues.

As has been mentioned by several other users, a ranked server is not supposed to be the place where people practice. Single player mode and the non-ranked servers offer more than enough opportunity to practice track and car knowledge.

But in the same post there is also some clever reasonings about if it would be possible to include some kind of AI logic to destinguish between wrecker and victim in multiplayer collisions.
I can remember back in the iRacing forum I was strongly advocating different (more or less goofy ) "solutions" but NEVER recieved any acknowledge from the devs that they had actually investigated in this issue or considered it as a problem - now it sounds like Racerooms devs actually have researched if it would be possible.

 

[Calvyn White]

Maybe the free part of the game should be made single-player only. This is where most of the mentally deficient are and because of this, it is extremely off-putting and to take the game seriously or any further. Maybe a certain amount of hours in single player before you can play online. Or the combination of both or both.
Well, I can only see in any method used being a problem to profits. But then again this could be enticing enough not to interfere with profits. If it was known there is going to be a better standard of gameplay on multiplayer and ranked servers. If you were serious enough, you'd be interested in the standard you be put in from the end result of the single-player period of play.
I suppose you can look at it as cruel to be kind. I'm happy with that if you get the result of fun that one is looking for and should be getting.

I myself would consider a paying a little extra if I knew it was going towards the effort of eliminating the mentally deficient. Unfortunately, like most games, it cannot distinguish between the unskilled and the mentally deficient. And for any sim manufacturer of that can achieve this would be a game-changer. But to achieve this would be extremely difficult. But I think what I said in the above paragraph would be a good start. "Maybe"

 

[BrunoBæ]

Not a bad idea to let the free part be single player only.
Absolutely not when I think about it.
Because when I see how much quarrel there is of the (reasonable IMO) cost of Racerooms tracks/cars then even a small MP fee would probably keep the most "casual" gamers away.

The problem as I see it is that the relatively few Raceroom users there is now have got accustomed to the free MP service.
So even if the MP fee was very low my guess is that many users would feel that something that they have taken for granted had been taken away.
And when I see how easy people does change from supporters to haters then I fear what would happen.

Personally I would have no problem paying some fee for the MP possibility - hehe but because much on the internet gaming behaviour is based on the attitude "Gimme gimme everything for free" then I have a bad feeling of what would happen.

CatsAreTheWorstDogs: If instead of a tiny fee for some rather unorganised Ranked servers Raceroom would start a 24/7 service up with organised racing and stuff then my attitude would be another. Eventhough Im undecided if I believe such a service could be economically sound - because there allready is some kind of existing "monopoly" in this area.

 

[Calvyn White]

Well, I look at it like this, I shot a man in the head. Yeah, sure shooting a man in the head is a bad thing. But it was Adolf Hitler and I did it for the greater good.

As far as I'm concerned taking away multiplayer from free content Is for the greater good. So tough boohoohoo. Get over it. After all, the reason for doing it in the first place is for the people that want to play as it should be without the mentally deficient spoiling your fun and crashing your enthusiasm to the point of not bothering at all.

Consider looking at it like any other update for the game. Take last December's big update for instance. Extreme changes pretty much a new outlook on the sim. Pretty much changed the feel of the sim entirely. At first, I didn't like it. But in time I have seen and felt the benefits and I must admit that it was done for the greater good.

I see no point in latching onto excuses not to do something just because those excuses are there to be used to not do something that needs to be done. As I don't see the reason of contradiction for the sake of contradiction. That's a politicians way of thinking especially when It interferes with profit. Personal profit.

If something needs to be done it needs to be done. And that's a fact. There is no point looking for excuses not to do it.

Example
Would you not fix a leaking pipe in your house? Or would you just say to yourself that needs to be fixed but I need an excuse not to do it so I'll look for one. Like, Well, nothing can get any wetter. And I do have some wellington boots. So f$%k it.

Another example.
Theodore Chaikin Sorensen. JFK speechwriter about going to the moon. A prime example of getting things done for the greater good. One of the finest speeches, I've ever heard and read. And one of the greatest presidents the US has ever had and "they" murdered him. Probably because the greater good was interfering with war profit. What more of an excuse do you need in that?

We should be looking for reasons to do and fix things not excuses not to. Far too many ifs and buts. As at the end of the day whether you like it or not It should be regarded for the greater good. You got to take a little rough to get smooth. Like pouring concrete or getting a flu jab.
A little off the wall maybe but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say. It is quite simple really. Nothing is ever done without the potential of profit. But certainly, action would be if that profit is in jeopardy even murder. Greed. Humans the so-called smartest species on the planet but without question the stupidest.

I suppose you could have something like 24 hours of single-player gameplay and you can have multiplayer back again. Or let's say you've already completed 24 hours of single-player There may be no changes for that individual could take place at all "perhaps". As for newcomers, they know the score.

Or you can just simply have a similar system to the ACC rating system. Where you have to achieve a certain standard before you can not get on ranked servers. But even that leaves the multiplayer side of things pretty much untouched, I think.

I, we want a good clean fun gaming atmosphere wherever we choose to play it. But at this present time, this is simply impossible. You don't like it. I don't like it. We don't like it. But by whatever manner even if it is a little bit hard to swallow it must be addressed and dealt with. No pain no gain.

One question though if sim racing is about realism. So, why is a major problem is pretty much overlooked or ignored, if you prefer?
I personally only see a profit reason.
Fixing multiplayer and the ranking system would be surely a profitable one. But I can only see as it stands. Potential newcomers being chased away by the mentally deficient, the impaired unskilled and keyboard use. I honestly think we losing more potential clean drivers then the sim will gain. But that's in my opinion.

We all want the same thing. But for me, I prefer action instead of looking for excuses, problems and loopholes on why something can not be done. I do love the expression and I quote: I don't have problems, I only have solutions and I'm thinking of one right now. Sure actions can hurt but it is only for a short while before it becomes the norm.

Anyway, I've said enough more than enough. This is pretty much all I have to say on the subject of the unskilled, multiplayer, the mentally defective and rank servers without repeating myself more than I've already done.
So, thank you for the discussion and debate on these subjects.

Most people are going to take a quick look at this post and say to themselves I'm not reading all that . Which is a shame really because you gonna miss out on me call you an ass.

Calv Killmore has left the building.

 

[BrunoBæ]

 

[Miguel Batista]

Also the raceroom servers have no skill differenciation yet (though judging by populations, only the GTR3 servers will see some form of tiers as of now. Of course these things take time to build and it is good that there are more people now on raceroom than there were 2 months ago) and once you have a skill and safety rating in place, I think the general quality of races will naturally improve. I agree with BrunoB's proposal of having people have to complete a hotlap event with the car/track combo in order to access the ranked event in that car/track combo. I mean, if you can't do 3 laps around Spa without spinning, how are you going to do the 7 or 8 that a 20 min race has? What is the point? Ruin someone else's race? I tried the GTR3 ranked server with 30 cars online. Qualified mid pack, got punted on Eau Rouge into a barrier by a car that tried to go three wide there (on the outside so I had to slow down because of the line and that guy behind me just didn't even bother to do anything besides trying to overtake). That smashed my engine and it was race over for me. What was the fun?

I mean, it is not exclusive to R3E. In Assetto Corsa, in the Tatus cars in the French circuit I got punted by the same guy 3 times. His defensive maneuver was to be overtaken and then divebomb into you as you were minding your business. Even in iRacing I met my fair share of punters who paid no attention to the surrounding environment including this one guy in the Skip Barbers who tried to divebomb me from 1.5s away... How did that go? Well, race over for me and him.

 

[BrunoBæ]

I agree with BrunoB's proposal of having people have to complete a hotlap event with the car/track combo in order to access the ranked event in that car/track combo. I mean, if you can't do 3 laps around Spa without spinning, how are you going to do the 7 or 8 that a 20 min race has? What is the point? Ruin someone else's race?

Hehe it sounds like some of your experiences is on pair or even worse than mine.
But to your rhetoric questions(What is the point? Ruin someone else's race?) then I more or less agree with Calvyn that it has much to do with some strange and pretty childish attitude where other people doesnt really matter.
And to that attitude added that often these morons dont have ANY racing skills - and often dont even know the track layout.

Conserning some kind of mandatory completion of a hotlap event of some laps as the entrance ticket to MP or to Ranked servers - that would probably help getting rid of the worst of these spoilers.
But thinking about it then actually the TT(Time Trial) competition from iRacing where you have to show that you are able to drive 4-6 laps on the track in SUCCESSION without incs - would be both a much better tool to keep spoilers away but also a kind of education/learner tool for people who honestly wants to participate on MP without being a pain in the ass for normal drivers.

Because as I remember it from iRacing then when you on as example your 4th lap in TT does spin or go picnicking into the grass and swear "Dammit I was sooo close" then the intention to start over with a new 4-6 lap succession is pretty high.
Because you nearly nailed it.

CatsAreTheWorstDogs: I have to say that in iRacing the TT was also a competition where you special TT rating was upped or lowered dependent of your position on the TT board for the relevant track. So therefore your TT rating would be pretty low if you tried to cheat by driving the 4-6 laps in walking speed.

 

[Miguel Batista]

Hehe it sounds like some of your experiences is on pair or even worse than mine.
But to your rhetoric questions(What is the point? Ruin someone else's race?) then I more or less agree with Calvyn that it has much to do with some strange and pretty childish attitude where other people doesnt really matter.
And to that attitude added that often these morons dont have ANY racing skills - and often dont even know the track layout.

Conserning some kind of mandatory completion of a hotlap event of some laps as the entrance ticket to MP or to Ranked servers - that would probably help getting rid of the worst of these spoilers.
But thinking about it then actually the TT(Time Trial) competition from iRacing where you have to show that you are able to drive 4-6 laps on the track in SUCCESSION without incs - would be both a much better tool to keep spoilers away but also a kind of education/learner tool for people who honestly wants to participate on MP without being a pain in the ass for normal drivers.

Because as I remember it from iRacing then when you on as example your 4th lap in TT does spin or go picnicking into the grass and swear "Dammit I was sooo close" then the intention to start over with a new 4-6 lap succession is pretty high.
Because you nearly nailed it.

CatsAreTheWorstDogs: I have to say that in iRacing the TT was also a competition where you special TT rating was upped or lowered dependent of your position on the TT board for the relevant track. So therefore your TT rating would be pretty low if you tried to cheat by driving the 4-6 laps in walking speed.

I mean i am not fault free. Last race i did here in rfactor 2 I actually quit because my concentration was gone and i was spinning every three laps. Also when I go to r3e ranked servers I know i am going to be slow because i haven't been practicing nearly enough. But rather slow and safe than fast and a bowling ball.

Anyway, I work with sim racing in a VR café and I set up experiences and the like. There is a reason why in any experence the first 15 mins to half an hour is you alone hotlaping. You get used to the car and track and you learn how to orient yourself in a virtual environment. And still whenever i put people who are inexperienced in their first race it is wrecking ball time. Trying to teach people to pay attention to their brake markers and not the ca ahead is tricky... plenty of times we get people who see the front car slowing down to the first hairpin in brands and divebomb into a wall. They usually get the hang of it soon enough ^^

 

[BrunoBæ]

I mean i am not fault free. ()
Also when I go to r3e ranked servers I know i am going to be slow because i haven't been practicing nearly enough. But rather slow and safe than fast and a bowling ball.

hehe none of us are fault free.
Not even Calvyn
But thats not what we are talking about here
Your job on the VR café sounds pretty cool.
I guess it a bit too much distance from Denmark - but eventhough I HAVE decided to get into the VR thing when time is right - there is no possibility near me to try it out in some kind of racing game.

 

[Miguel Batista]

hehe none of us are fault free.
Not even Calvyn
But thats not what we are talking about here
Your job on the VR café sounds pretty cool.
I guess it a bit too much distance from Denmark - but eventhough I HAVE decided to get into the VR thing when time is right - there is no possibility near me to try it out in some kind of racing game.

Hehe, Brighton is a stone's throw away. We had an event last december that might've been up your alley. F1 through the ages. 4 F1 cars, the Lotus 49, Lotus 72, Lotus 89 and Pcars Pro Formula A (basically PCARS 2 Formula A but less ****). Quite good fun. Will do a similar one for endurance cars.

 

[Georg Ortner]

Don't forget that the ranked servers in RaceRoom are just the first small step into the new ranked Multiplayer.

The goal is to eventually have scheduled races and matchmaking that splits grids to put together drivers of similar skill level.

So, get your ratings up now, and you won't have to deal with lower skill drivers in the future