Cars similar to the BMW M235i Racing and the Mazda MX-5 Cup

[gluon]

Hello everyone!

Since I've started using Assetto Corsa I've been mostly interested in GT3 cars but also on less performant cars, with a typical weight to power ratio between 4 and 6 kg/hp like the BMW M235i and the Mazda MX-5 Cup.

These two cars in particular, as entry-level racing solutions, handle quite well and do what you tell them to do, which in my opinion makes them ideal for anyone who's relatively new to sim racing. They're easier to drive and simpler to set up than any GT3, nevertheless I feel perhaps even more fun when driving them for long periods.

So my question is basically what other racing cars have you been enjoying driving that have similar performance levels to these funny little cars? GT4 is probably too close to GT3, so ideally I'm looking for cars that don't really belong to any group, other than being quite popular among amateur club racing.

 

[RasmusP]

Hmm, I don't see any video, maybe you forgot to attach?

Oops! Edited my post

 

[gluon]

Oops! Edited my post

Ahh, now I see what you mean. You do seem to have that constant extra fine tuning of the steering wheel, with small amplitude inputs searching for the last bit of grip. Awesome driving there! I forgot to mention that I had TC off for that lap with the BMW, although usually I'm a bit faster with it enabled on other tracks. At Magione having it off allows me to have extra control over the car rotation on all those slow tight corners.

 

[RasmusP]

Ahh, now I see what you mean. You do seem to have that constant extra fine tuning of the steering wheel, with small amplitude inputs searching for the last bit of grip. Awesome driving there! I forgot to mention that I had TC off for that lap with the BMW, although usually I'm a bit faster with it enabled on other tracks. At Magione having it off allows me to have extra control over the car rotation on all those slow tight corners.

I really do like the TC of the BMW. You should be able to do the same rotation thing when oh just be really aggressive on the throttle and push it a little with the steering wheel into a drift. Without TC I equally can't pull this off!
It's default setup btw so no magic or anything involved

 

[Pawel Ziolkowski]

Great advice @RasmusP , nice driving too, but looking twice at how you took last corner has given me enough distress to actually time it too see how much you were loosing... one numerical mistake later and i was comparing it on the video in disbelief that your line was faster.
In the end it seems like you are loosing up to 0.3s in just that corner. Considering rest of the lap is so nice i can't resist sharing the video. Cheers

As a note, that very late apex you use is something of a myth. Not only you are driving much longer line, the exit speed is not faster at all (as explained in #3 here).

 

[RasmusP]

Great advice @RasmusP , nice driving too, but looking twice at how you took last corner has given me enough distress to actually time it too see how much you were loosing... one numerical mistake later and i was comparing it on the video in disbelief that your line was faster.
In the end it seems like you are loosing up to 0.3s in just that corner. Considering rest of the lap is so nice i can't resist sharing the video. Cheers

As a note, that very late apex you use is something of a myth. Not only you are driving much longer line, the exit speed is not faster at all (as explained in #3 here).

Thanks for sharing your knowledge! Really appreciate it!
I can calm your mind though: Friend of mine who is a lot quicker than me shared his telemetry of a 02:01.998 with me and I'm practicing on correcting my lines. My lap was a 02:02.855. (not the best server settings in general so a bit slower times).
I'm having a read now though and am enjoying your video!

Fun note: One good thing about being able to drive this far too outside line consistently is to be able to pull off some switchbacks

 

[Pawel Ziolkowski]

I'm having a read now though and am enjoying your video!

Fun note: One good thing about being able to drive this far too outside line consistently is to be able to pull off some switchbacks

Oh yeah if you have the outside it's a great line

The stuff posted on paradigm-shift is pretty good. I'm reading one of their books right now, and it's nice even thou i hoped for more maths, but oh well, normal simracer would probably appreciate that haha.

 

[gluon]

Inspired by @RasmusP lap around Mugello with the M235i Racing I decided to try this circuit for the first time. I had no clue about Mugello (other than watching races on TV), so these were literally my first laps around it. Watching your lap I noticed a lot of fast chicanes and long sweeping corners which are quite challenging and addicting at the same time.

I had to slightly tweak the setup as usual because I'm faster with a little bit more of understeer (or so I believe according to telemetry and lap times). I also believe this is why I move my wheel much less in comparison to @RasmusP since the rear has more grip and only comes loose if I really overdrive. I'm aware I was using 3rd instead of 4th gear on a few corners but for some reason I felt more comfortable like that. I'll have to learn how to keep the momentum even better on this demanding circuit, because I believe that's faster.

I'm 1.6 seconds off your superb lap time, however I believe I could be a bit faster with more practice and once I can carry more speed at corner entry. After all, this was my first time around the track.

 

[Pawel Ziolkowski]

I'll have to learn how to keep the momentum even better on this demanding circuit, because I believe that's faster.

Yup . It's all in the pedals for you now.

 

[gluon]

Yup . It's all in the pedals for you now.

Indeed. I'm working on it. On more powerful cars, which don't rely so much on keeping the momentum through corners it's mostly about being gentle with the throttle at corner exit, which I think I've more or less got under control. On slower cars like the ones on this thread though, since they lack power to quickly recover speed, one must really do some throttle trickery through the corner to keep the speed up while not losing too much grip at the same time. I guess I'll watch some videos to see how it's done.

 

[RasmusP]

Indeed. I'm working on it. On more powerful cars, which don't rely so much on keeping the momentum through corners it's mostly about being gentle with the throttle at corner exit, which I think I've more or less got under control. On slower cars like the ones on this thread though, since they lack power to quickly recover speed, one must really do some throttle trickery through the corner to keep the speed up while not losing too much grip at the same time. I guess I'll watch some videos to see how it's done.

The cool thing is that once you get it right with these cars and translate it to the faster cars you'll shave off quite a few seconds with them too
Tyres are tyres after all and behave the same.
What I can tell you from watching your lap around mugello:
I think you're too early on the throttle. But not because your throttle management is wrong, it's because your braking is not the best currently.
What helped me: force yourself to only go on the throttle if you can go to 50% directly and only increase it from there. Never go off the throttle again.
This "pumping" is really bad. The problem, as I mentioned, is that you're too slow and also too fast at the same time because you don't nail the braking. (too fast at turn in but then too slow at the apex)

So set yourself the restriction to when you go on the throttle, you'll stick to it. If you don't feel safe to do that, just let the car roll... It will feel extremely slow at first but it opens the "gap" in your head between where you actually can go on the throttle and where you should still be "doing something else" like either still slightly braking or carrying more momentum.

So basically imagine braking/rolling in red and throttle in blue. Right now you have a dark red stripe at first and then a blue stripe that's varying intensity and begins way too early.
With the restriction I told you, you fix the blue stripe to a smooth intensity shade and also place it a bit later.
That way you'll have the dark red braking stripe, then nothing/white and then the smooth blue stripe.
And then you start filling that gap with some nice red shading. Longer, smoother braking while carrying more momentum.
At some point the two stripes will connect again
I'll edit a drawing into this post later today

 

[gluon]

@RasmusP,

Thank you so much for all the invaluable input. I have a list of driving technique improvements on the back of my head and fixing the "pumping" is top priority. I hadn't quite figured out yet why I was doing it, but your insight about my braking and turn in made me understand it a little bit better. I'm constantly aware of the "slow in, fast out" tip, because a friend of mine always tells me that, nevertheless sometimes I don't really follow it to the letter because the temptation to gain every bit of time is too high.

I suppose I'll have to let the car roll more than needed, even if it looks or actually is a bit slower, just to get on terms with that 50% and above throttle restriction. Your analogy with the red and blue stripes and the gap between them being filled with more braking was quite nice.

When I switch to the Cayman GT4 it seems like I nail the braking a bit better, especially on stop and go circuits like the Red Bull Ring below. I also commit to the throttle without hesitations on most corners. Now I need to polish it and translate that to the M235i Racing.

 

[Pawel Ziolkowski]

Indeed. I'm working on it. On more powerful cars, which don't rely so much on keeping the momentum through corners it's mostly about being gentle with the throttle at corner exit, which I think I've more or less got under control. On slower cars like the ones on this thread though, since they lack power to quickly recover speed, one must really do some throttle trickery through the corner to keep the speed up while not losing too much grip at the same time. I guess I'll watch some videos to see how it's done.

Well i was thinking more about brakes. Your control of the right pedal is much better than the left one. I'd say that between the two 80% of time lost to Rasmus lap was on brakes.

Also every car is reliant on momentum, it's just harder to loose a lot of time at corner exit in low powered car.

If you wanna train braking, take that understeery setup and make it oversteer into the corner just on the brakes, if you learn it the "momentum" will come by itself.

 

[RasmusP]

I saw that your familiar with Motec and acti?
I can send you my telemetry if you want me to. That way you just see black on white what you need to work on

 

[gluon]

I saw that your familiar with Motec and acti?
I can send you my telemetry if you want me to. That way you just see black on white what you need to work on

Yup, I use ACTI and MoTeC. Using your telemetry data as a reference would be of great help.

 

[RasmusP]

Delete the "ini" at the end

 

[gluon]

So, after analysing @RasmusP's kindly shared telemetry and listening to all the advices here, especially waiting longer with zero throttle and then commit to 100% right away, I've shaved off 0.8s from my previous lap time reducing my gap from 1.6s to 0.8s.

Comparing the telemetry also taught me I was braking a bit too late in some corners, hence compromising my entry and apex. I've tried to fix that and also come off the brakes more gradually to avoid unsettling the car. It's not perfect yet, but at least I've fixed most of the throttle pumping. Changing the FOV from 56 to 38 also helped me to preemptively avoid some slides, as the yaw movement was more apparent. Last but not least, @Pawel Ziolkowski's suggestion to increase the tyre screeching onset from 100% to 150% also helped. So here's my 2:03.752 lap around Mugello with the M235i Racing.

 

[RasmusP]

So, after analysing @RasmusP's kindly shared telemetry and listening to all the advices here, especially waiting longer with zero throttle and then commit to 100% right away, I've shaved off 0.8s from my previous lap time reducing my gap from 1.6s to 0.8s.

Comparing the telemetry also taught me I was braking a bit too late in some corners, hence compromising my entry and apex. I've tried to fix that and also come off the brakes more gradually to avoid unsettling the car. It's not perfect yet, but at least I've fixed most of the throttle pumping. Changing the FOV from 56 to 38 also helped me to preemptively avoid some slides, as the yaw movement was more apparent. Last but not least, @Pawel Ziolkowski's suggestion to increase the tyre screeching onset from 100% to 150% also helped. So here's my 2:03.752 lap around Mugello with the M235i Racing.

Looks a lot better and like and actual quick lap!
' 03.4xx was my race pace on Wednesday' s club race so there's not that much of a difference anymore between us
As you said you could probably make the transition a bit smoother, go earlier on the throttle (didn't see you drift once!) and brake a bit longer and lift the brakes more smoothly but overall it looks good now!
This car is very difficult in my opinion. Teaches good things but every tiny little mistake makes you lose 1-3 tenths just like that...

 

[gluon]

I found a new love, called Ginetta G55 GT4. It's just the kind of car I was looking for in this thread, similar to the Cayman and Maserati but with a much better handling. You can really push it to the limit and beyond as it's so forgiving. It's available for download here at RD and it's simply the best car mod I've ever tried. Moreover, the BoP perfectly matches its lap times against the other GT4 cars making it awesome to drive against the AI, especially because it lacks top speed and acceleration but makes up for it on braking and corner entry. Here's a video of my close battle against a Cayman, where basically I brake much later and have way more speed at each corner, but then I massively lose on acceleration which balances it out perfectly. This is a must download car.

 

[AlleyViper]

If you like the M235i Racing, try also the 1 Series M S3. It even comes with lots or racing liveries for a cup series, despite missing a proper racing interior (just like the 458 S3 which is closer spec'd to a track 458 Challenge). IIRC it predated the release of the proper M235i racing on the first Dream Pack.
Specs aren't quite the same, so it might give you an interesting alternate challenge.

If you like rwd touring cars that are down to basics but with a great power/weight ratio, don't forget the E30 M3 DTM (highest stage for the Group A model) and its 190E Evo II rival. The 93' Alfa 155 has a bit of a balance problem against them, because it's later spec'd Class 1 DTM car, even it some some Group A cars were still running along with it in the transition year.

 

[F_B]

Reading this thread I wonder if someone has done something like a list with cars of similar or same performance? So you just can look it up and group cars together in CM.