Can anyone explain the setup explanations?!

[ears]

I'm a total beginner with setups really but I am trying to do basic stuff on cars, just to get tyres working well initially.

But the guidance in AC - I can't make sense of it.

Take brake bias for example. The guidance says 'switches brake bias from front to rear'. OK. Well it's currently on 64% or whatever, I can increase it and decrease it. But what's front and what's rear? Is it 64% to the rear? So if I decrease it it'll move to the front? That's what it feels like, but I thought I'd check.

I struggle with their negative camber explanation too. Click plus / minus to increase / decrease negative camber? There are more double negatives in there than my brain can handle. Can anyone explain what happens in layman's terms?

When I click + does the wheel tip towards its outer edge or towards its inner edge?

Thanks!

 

[Ben Lee]

There is one setup description that doesn't really make sense. I can't recall the exact wording, or the value in question, but it goes something like this...

"Change this to make the effect more less severe"

 

[Richard Dastardly]

There is one setup description that doesn't really make sense. I can't recall the exact wording, or the value in question, but it goes something like this...

"Change this to make the effect more less severe"

I don't really trust the tooltips ever since I saw it tell you to reduce front rebound to decrease corner exit understeer - that doesn't make any sense from a physics point of view nor does it match any real setup guides, unless the number is not actually representing damper stiffness. If it's not, then you can't trust any of the other numbers either.

* The only time it'd make sense would be if the inside front was actually lifting off the track because the damper was too stiff. Not a particularily common problem anymore.

 

[Pawel Ziolkowski]

I don't really trust the tooltips ever since I saw it tell you to reduce front rebound to decrease corner exit understeer - that doesn't make any sense from a physics point of view nor does it match any real setup guides, unless the number is not actually representing damper stiffness. If it's not, then you can't trust any of the other numbers either.

Haha and that's why the real setup guides are crap. The tooltip is correct to some extent - effect is small and sometimes can't be felt at all, but reducing front rebound can decrease understeer!

The reasoning behind it (as i understand) is that, while guides often follow lateral or lateral+longitudinal load transfers, when following ideal racing lines lateral transfers are slow, too slow to matter and so the most noticeable transfer is longitudinal - when hitting the throttle hard.
This causes front rebound and rear bump damper action. Softer front means weight will transfer slower thus granting more grip initially which aids in keeping the front turned in during the initial transition.
And personally i have used dampers that way in some AC cars with noticeable results in line with the tooltip.

Thou that's of course only one effect, and you can probably find a dozen of opposite ones... but that's the issue with this, it's complicated, car and driver dependent. And kunos tooltips, while not perfect and sometimes hard to understand are pretty solid in general for a (not too fast) simracer.

 

[Andy-R]

So has this thread given you more less understanding than the descriptions in-game?

 

[Richard Dastardly]

The reasoning behind it (as i understand) is that, while guides often follow lateral or lateral+longitudinal load transfers, when following ideal racing lines lateral transfers are slow, too slow to matter and so the most noticeable transfer is longitudinal - when hitting the throttle hard.
This causes front rebound and rear bump damper action. Softer front means weight will transfer slower thus granting more grip initially which aids in keeping the front turned in during the initial transition.
And personally i have used dampers that way in some AC cars with noticeable results in line with the tooltip.

And that's where the confusion is - what is "softer" here? ie, what does the smaller number in the setup mean? if it's "smaller valve" then that will mean more resistance & more gradual weight transfer ( and the number will be backwards from the bump dampers ). If you just mean "less resistance" then that's going to mean faster weight transfer off the front on throttle increase ( just as less rear bound means faster weight transfer onto the rear ). The only time it seems to make sense is if the car is squatting back on the outside rear so fast that the inside front wheel lifts off because it's softly sprung & can't overcome the rebound damper.

Lateral damping is a factor on entry at least, I'm not terribly convinced about the effect at exit vs pitching from applying power.

 

[Pawel Ziolkowski]

what is "softer" here? ie, what does the smaller number in the setup mean? if it's "smaller valve" then that will mean more resistance & more gradual weight transfer ( and the number will be backwards from the bump dampers ). If you just mean "less resistance" then that's going to mean faster weight transfer off the front on throttle increase ( just as less rear bound means faster weight transfer onto the rear ).

Smaller valve is harder, more resistance, and more abrupt weight transfer. Less resistance means slower initial weight transfer, and that's probably the reason for your confusion. Try rethinking how dampers work exactly. It's not about how fast we change from one position to another, but what happens during the transition, and initial part of it is often more impactful.

Lateral damping is a factor on entry at least, I'm not terribly convinced about the effect at exit vs pitching from applying power.

With sharp entry yeah, but i feel like in general there is more corners that you trailbrake in, and there lateral transfer is slow.
While often racecars are made to have good balance on entry and exit, which makes for crap balance in the middle when coasting so no matter what corner you want to transition from braking to throttle immediately without loosing posture (car's slide angle) thus having a quick transfer that can be controlled with dampers.

 

[Tbear]

So has this thread given you more less understanding than the descriptions in-game?

Imagine that.

 

[Tbear]

That picture alone answers your question. "Target lines range 2psi" and the one on the right is 24 psi, at the bottom target line.

No it does not ...
OK ... so does the "-" mean that we have too much air, or too little air in the tyres? Should I put in some air, or take some out? ... and just how is the Nube or intermediate driver to understand that? It's not explained clearly in the texts, and as I understand the OP's questions ... this is at the very heart of it.

As it turns out, the above example indicates that:

1. We need to do nothing to the left front ... no change.

2. We need to take .3 out (i.e., subtract) from the Left Rear

3. We need to put one in (i.e., add) one to the right front

and, 4. We need to put in 1.4 pounds to the right rear

.... which is opposite of what the signs in front of the numbers say. Very confusing for a new boy!

This could have been expressed a lot more clearly on the chart and also in the directions. Same Same with all the <1+ <= <- - . found in the rest of the AC set up guides. The information IS correct but it's presentation leaves a LOT of confusion for nubes and intermediate drivers.

I may not know a damned thing about racing games, but I do know when printed directions are confusing and the explanations not clear.

 

[Richard Dastardly]

Smaller valve is harder, more resistance, and more abrupt weight transfer. Less resistance means slower initial weight transfer, and that's probably the reason for your confusion. Try rethinking how dampers work exactly. It's not about how fast we change from one position to another, but what happens during the transition, and initial part of it is often more impactful.

In bound sure - stiffer dampers effectively increase the spring rate for a short time. Rebound opposes the spring doing any work to extend itself - I am still failing to see how a transient reduction in effective spring rate is going to mean faster weight transfer *off* that spring.

 

[Stig Bidstrup]

- ( Negative ) Camber often used on race cars to get more turn in ( faster ) A bit overdone on this car perhaps .

+ Camber ( positive) are rarely used on race cars .
0 ( zero ) camber can often give you a bit more top speed ( no resistance )

 

[Stig Bidstrup]

Why setups confuse me !

I get tyre pressure and temperature.
I get gearing. Including coast and power.
I get camber up to a point.
Rear wing.
Rear toe
Abs and traction
All these settings i can alter and make some sense of them.

So i picked a circuit i hate ( Donington GP ), i am racing there this weekend anyway.

Set the above gearing,camber, wing, tyre pressures, Coast and power and rear toe.
picking my favorite setup i painfully knocked out some laps
and got a best time.

I then completely reversed eveything ( exciuding the above mentioned settings )
Front Toe,sping rates, damper settings, Anti roll bars and keeping ride height the same both
ends.

Drove the car again and got the same lap times. And much the same feel.

Is it me or am i missing something. ( i usually do )

Can anyone shed some light on this.

When you start messing with setup ,You must remember its a GAME .
Programmers have made something that they want to simulate as caster for example.
But they don't always get things right I can assure you.

It would also be strange if they could get everything right.
there fore sometimes something that shouldn't work --will suddenly be the best because its a game.

 

[mclarenf1papa]

No it does not ...
OK ... so does the "-" mean that we have too much air, or too little air in the tyres? Should I put in some air, or take some out? ... and just how is the Nube or intermediate driver to understand that? It's not explained clearly in the texts, and as I understand the OP's questions ... this is at the very heart of it.
View attachment 268050

As it turns out, the above example indicates that:

1. We need to do nothing to the left front ... no change.

2. We need to take .3 out (i.e., subtract) from the Left Rear

3. We need to put one in (i.e., add) one to the right front

and, 4. We need to put in 1.4 pounds to the right rear

.... which is opposite of what the signs in front of the numbers say. Very confusing for a new boy!

This could have been expressed a lot more clearly on the chart and also in the directions. Same Same with all the <1+ <= <- - . found in the rest of the AC set up guides. The information IS correct but it's presentation leaves a LOT of confusion for nubes and intermediate drivers.

I may not know a damned thing about racing games, but I do know when printed directions are confusing and the explanations not clear.

The left front is +0, don’t change it. The right front is -1 and is at a lower psi than the left front (24 vs 25). Which very clearly means you have to raise it. If you don’t understand that from the picture alone, I see the problem.

 

[mclarenf1papa]

View attachment 268082
When you start messing with setup ,You must remember its a GAME .
Programmers have made something that they want to simulate as caster for example.
But they don't always get things right I can assure you.

It would also be strange if they could get everything right.
there fore sometimes something that shouldn't work --will suddenly be the best because its a game.

So to speak on this point, it’s far more likely that Kek700 is just missing something (or that in fact his setup changes canceled each other out to a degree). There are some issues with AC, yes, but certainly many fewer than you’re implying it might have. It’s not a matter of making “something that they want to simulate as caster,” as that’s not really how simulation design works. It’s all based on accepted physics equations that take empirical data as their inputs. The vast majority of the things Kunos has gotten wrong are related to that data, not the underlying physics engine.

 

[Tbear]

If you don’t understand that from the picture alone, I see the problem.

I don't have a problem with it ... but a lot of guys, nubes and intermediates do ... like the OP ... and everybody else who said they did in this thread.

No need to get snarky ...

 

[Pawel Ziolkowski]

In bound sure - stiffer dampers effectively increase the spring rate for a short time. Rebound opposes the spring doing any work to extend itself - I am still failing to see how a transient reduction in effective spring rate is going to mean faster weight transfer *off* that spring.

Ah here is the issue, bound and rebound work the same way: stiffer damper = dynamically stiffer spring. Bump is easy but for grasping rebound it's better to think about it in deflection rather than force: "stiffer = less travel needed to reach given force". Heavily damped rebound will change the load force sifnificantly over a short height change, just like stiff spring would.

In fact with these problems it's best to think in extremes, try to imagine an infinitely stiff damper. What happens to the spring in extending motion, and how loads would change as a result from that.
answer:

Spoiler

spring is frozen completely, there is no travel and load is changed instantly, just as if spring itself had infinite stiffness

 

[dud]

Before entering setup, use f5or f6 to be in a closeup view to a wheel. As you play around with the camber and toes for that wheel you can reset and reload your config and you will see the wheel change position. That way you can be sure not to be lost in the double negatives.

Toe has positive labels for negative values all over the web, so it's pretty much required.

 

[dud]

I should point out there are no front engined GT3 cars; they all have engines between the axles aside from the 911 - irrespective of where it is in the road car - & iirc they're all close to ideal weight distribution. Brake bias isn't an indicator of anything much, there's a reason you can change it in the car.

Uhhhh. You can tell by the exhaust pipes going out to the side who's front engined. E.g. M6 GT3.

Brake bias adjustment is simple: if you don't have enough brake on the rear the car will fly off the track. If you have too much in the front the front wheels slip, and their tires get too hot. Adjust toward the rear until thingie kills you. But keep in mind that balance can change between speeds due to aero balance taking over at higher speed.

Also on the topic of too much rear downforce:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=706378773049859