AMS 2 Announced - MADNESS Engine Confirmed!

[Paul Jeffrey]

The announcement is here! Read on for some very big news regarding the next racing game project from Reiza Studios.

Having earned considerable good will from the sim racing community thanks to their outstanding work on GSCE and Automobilista, Reiza Studios confirmed they planned on developing and releasing a new racing title in the very near future. For various reasons that "very near future" turned into a couple of years or so, and the original working title of 'Reiza '17' quickly became obsolete.

Well folks, wait no more - the announcement is here!

Let’s be honest, we expected this to be good... and good it is. Firstly, let’s talk about the surprise aspect of the announcement today – the game engine.

Most folks would be willing to throw down money on Reiza taking hold of the rFactor 2 ISI gMotor2 and bolting on an external graphics engine… but Reiza have surprised us all with an announcement we didn’t expect – AMS 2 will be using the Slightly Mad Studios developed Madness engine!

So what does that mean? Well it means day-to-night transitions. It means dynamic weather and it means VR! Yes, all those things that sim racers ask for, wrapped up in an impressive graphics engine that gives good framerates. Oh, and with the Reiza magic touch regarding physics and force feedback thrown into the mix. Awesome.

So, what else do we know? Well looking at the new trailer, we see the now legendary StockCar Series and Interlargos circuit, giving us a couple of exceptional pieces of content, and leading me to believe that AMS 2 will once again have a focus on the Brazilian racing scene at its core – which is excellent news in my opinion.

Other highlights from trailer has to be the incredible 1991 Ayrton Senna McLaren Honda! The Brazilian legend, a legendary Brazilian development studio - how awesome is that!

All in, this announcement sounds like fantastic news from Reiza, and well, well worth the wait!

The Reiza announcement in full:

Automobilista 2 is the culmination of a project developed over the course of nearly a decade. At its core, it is a comprehensive simulation of the Brazilian motorsports scene, featuring all major Brazilian racing series, race tracks and manufacturers.

Automobilista 2 will also celebrate Brazilian motorsports heritage by featuring some of the country´s most iconic heroes and achievements through its rich history in the sport.

Packing an even larger roster of diverse cars and tracks than its predecessor, Automobilista 2 will venture further into the best of international motorsports, including prestigious brands such as McLaren and BMW along with iconic venues such as Brands Hatch and Imola, at the same time continuing to explore the more exotic and exciting forms of motorsports from around the world.

Boosted by a new technical partnership with the developers of the award-winning Project CARS series, Automobilista 2 is built on the MADNESS engine, providing incredible graphical quality, the most advanced dynamic weather and track condition systems in a racing simulator and superior VR support, to deliver a substantial realism upgrade and a fully immersive visual experience.

With Automobilista 2 we aim to combine the strengths that made its predecessor unique with major evolutions in all areas. The sim will offer some exclusive features for both single player and multiplayer, which we look forward to sharing over the remaining months of development!


AMS 2 is set to release December 2019.

For the latest news and discussion items in relation to the newly announced new racing simulation from Reiza Studios, head over to our brand new AMS 2 sub forum, and never miss a thing again!

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[Kenny Paton]

@dcully : so you didn't like pcars. Is this a preference or a lack of ability to enjoy it?

Did I mention keeping the thread on topic.

 

[numbersevenhull]

Agreed. The people that made the engine, made GTR, GT Legends, GTR2, pCARS would be a disaster if they got involved...

Haha @Ian Bell good answer. I'd like to add, because I don't think it's been mentioned, credit where credit is due to all at Slightly Mad Studios for getting this deal over the line. Excellent for those that love sim racing and I hope it's fruitful and informative for both studios.

 

[Marc Collins]

@ Kenny Patton
I accept the fanboy jibe might be seen as an insult to some and i apologize to them if so
Nothing else to apologize for.

You are confusing physics and FFB in the engine versus implementation. The engine is a branch-off from the same ISI original engine, the same as AMS and rF2 (and many more).

As mentioned above, look at the sales numbers of PC and PC 2. Compare to AMS. Sales does not equal quality, but it isn't a pile of crap with that many people buying it.

Where PC 2 seems to fail in our little hard-core sim racing world is in implementation issues. Cars are not modelled with the same consistent quality level, so some feel and perform much better than others for no explicable reason. Reiza are the masters of consistent quality. Guess what, ISI and S397 rF2 suffers from exactly the same implementation issue and it drives people crazy. You can drive one car in rF2 and be convinced it is the greatest simulator of all time, but then experience the whole range of content and be left fuming. iRacing anyone?

The FFB user interface in PC 2 is a curious beast. It is a self-inflicted wound in my opinion. Incomprehensible settings and options that less than 1% of the sim racing community even half understand, so it is more likely that you end up in a rabbit hole of sub-optimal settings than to have the best settings. If a large proportion of your user base is not experiencing optimal settings because they don't have a PhD in FFB design or because they choose not to take excessive amounts of time to fiddle and tweak, then you help the case that your title has poor FFB when in fact it may not. What other title has been constantly criticized for requiring too much fiddling and effort for the past 7 years? The vaunted rF2.

I suspect that Reiza will use the same approach they did in AMS and hide all of those superfluous FFB settings from the user. There is only one "most realistic" combination and permutation--hard code it and be done with it. Users should only be adjusting strength to their liking and to accommodate their wildly varying design wheels. If SMS (@Ian Bell) would just tell people what the "pure" or "raw" settings are that match reality, we could all judge for ourselves. But I don't think it is possible because just like rF2, different approaches have been followed for different cars, so there is no one universal setting that will work for all of them. But clarification would be appreciated so AMS fans can test PC 2 at its best for themselves instead of relying on opinions from others or half-baked settings on their own machines.

You can choose to have variable implementation of vehicle modelling and then give people many sliders to compensate, or, get rid of the sliders and choose to model all of your content to a consistent standard. Reiza chose the latter with AMS and gets lots of well-deserved praise for doing so. ISI, Sector 3, iRacing, SMS all get criticized for not doing it.

My two conclusions are:

1. Don't shoot SMS too much for doing things the way most other major developers do--only critique them if they did it worse.
2. Don't judge the underlying engine by a single application--the example above of rF2 and The Grand Tour is a great one.

We'll have to wait and see what Madness can produce if Reiza chooses to apply their existing quality and consistency philosophy to it. I am dreaming and hoping we get a perfect blend of the old AMS with the great graphics of Madness. But even if that happens, don't be surprised if AMS 2 remains more of a niche product than the PC series. What is valued in this tiny little corner is not what the market values most of the time.

In an even more ideal world, Reiza and SMS working together will help push both company's products to better heights.

Criticizing SMS at every turn because their existing two titles do not appeal or have issues is a bit of a waste of time since every title has issues of one sort or another and we know there are fanboys for each of them. Let's focus on making AMS 2 the best possible result for those of us who appreciate the unique approach and qualities of AMS. With the right combination of intelligent choices, AMS 2 could satisfy both AMS fans and a much wider audience. That should be what we all want to see.

 

[Ian Bell]

@Ian Bell thanks for responding here! Perhaps you can provide some insight.

There seems to be some confusion among users of this forum in relation to how Physics are determined with games and their game engines. I am of the impression that a game engine will have certain limits to how detailed physics calculations can be made, but ultimately it's the developers of a particular game that determines the exact calculations used and, ultimately, the end result.

To draw an analogy, it's like a student building something and measuring with a ruler that uses inches instead of millimeters: the student has the potential to be more accurate with the millimeter ruler...but it is also ultimately down to the skill of the student to measure the right areas and use those measurements wisely. It can be a less precise masterpiece vs. a very precisely measured hot mess.

Which is why you can have:

• rFactor 2 (arguably the most "sim" of racing games currently released in full)
• The Grand Tour (a very arcade style of racing game)

...both of which were made using the ISI Gmotor 2 engine. Two very different titles with 2 very different levels of realism in terms of physics.

Is this essentially a very simplified way of how each individual game comes up with physics? That the developer is ultimately responsible for the physics the user is presented?
(As opposed to the notion that every game engine is hard-coded with only 1 method of physics and every game will handle in the exact same way)

Great question. Our engine (including physics) is entirely open. The seta tyre model is a generation ahead of what's out there in some of 'the favourite sims'... What you do with it is up to you though. We didn't polish it as we would have liked. Reiza are experts at polish. I'll say no more.

 

[Ian Bell]

Its not a slight on anyone Stephen, they are just pissed i called out SMS and their lack of ability when it comes to physics and ffb.
Apologies for quoting you, ill take the stick thrown at me , rest assured your comments are not what they have a beef with.

I disagree

 

[dcully]

I disagree

Ofcourse you do.

 

[Klancy]

Fantastic news ! A dream come true, PC2' engine with the AMS physics/ffb wich is simply the best available !

So next week AMS 2 Early Access right !?

 

[rockinchari97]

If so ... just play PC3...
Why should it use AMS 's PC engine?
I am disappointed ... I do not expect anymore from AMS.
Rather use Wreckfest's engine.

 

[Oldzeb]

You are confusing physics and FFB in the engine versus implementation. The engine is a branch-off from the same ISI original engine, the same as AMS and rF2 (and many more).

do not confuse ISImotor 2.0 (ams, & co) and ISIMotor 2.5 just rF2 it seems to me!

 

[Dave Thayer]

It is nice they are planning to have VR support with this new game.

Since this has the same engine as Pcars 2, Hope there are a variety of Different tracks than what they have in Pcars 2. Also I have a funny feeling this game will have very little 3rd party mods like Pcars 2, probably no new tracks can be added to AMS2 like we can with AMS1. Maybe I am all wrong, But, we shall see when they have their interview with the developer.

Always look forward to new racing games though.

 

[Deleted member 526227]

The Seta-tire model should be one gen ahead of everything else? Well...we'll see what Reiza can realize.

The experiences I made with Cars2 have been quite different. For me it's 1-2 classes behind rF2, without any doubt.

 

[BP]

It is nice they are planning to have VR support with this new game.

Since this has the same engine as Pcars 2, Hope there are a variety of Different tracks than what they have in Pcars 2. Also I have a funny feeling this game will have very little 3rd party mods like Pcars 2, probably no new tracks can be added to AMS2 like we can with AMS1. Maybe I am all wrong, But, we shall see when they have their interview with the developer.

Always look forward to new racing games though.

All these things you speak of have nothing to do with being on the same engine, they are developer choices.

It's a bit like saying:
Painter A paints a picture using certain paints, a specific brush and a specific canvas.
You hate Painter A's picture.
Painter B uses the exact same paints, brush and canvas as Painter A.

Does this means Painter B's picture is gonna suck as well by default?

 

[Marc Collins]

Great question. Our engine (including physics) is entirely open. The seta tyre model is a generation ahead of what's out there in some of 'the favourite sims'... What you do with it is up to you though. We didn't polish it as we would have liked. Reiza are experts at polish. I'll say no more.

Thanks for participating in this discussion, despite the hostility. I know you aren't afraid of that, but still we AMS fanatics are very excited about AMS 2 and you undoubtedly played a big role in what it will become. If the Madness engine can become the new de facto base for Reiza and others to develop their unique and varied sims, it will have been an excellent business move. We all look forward to seeing the result of Reiza's careful polishing and I hope it is an inspiration for us all!

 

[DaVeX↯]

Great question. Our engine (including physics) is entirely open. The seta tyre model is a generation ahead of what's out there in some of 'the favourite sims'... What you do with it is up to you though. We didn't polish it as we would have liked. Reiza are experts at polish. I'll say no more.

This reply pairs good with the Renato one on Reiza forums:

"I’ll say one thing that pretty much applies equally to AI, physics, audio which I think most agree were some of the strongest points of AMS1... Nothing can be ported over like a copy&paste flick of a switch - some fronts will demand a lot of work, others less. At the same time we would not have made the move if it meant starting any of those fronts from scratch. Most things are ingood shape already and it will only get better."

To be honest I don't understand why people going so hard against PC games specially if those aren't the topic of discussion here. Reiza licensed the Madness engine, not ProjectCars, this means they are going to develop their own product and even if based on the same engine it will be a different beast so comparing them in useless.

I am the first one not putting the PC franchise on top of my favorite titles but also I can recognize it has some good features too and comparing it to AMS2 not only is useless (still to be released and already calling it PC3) but also stupid because as I said same engine but different beast!!!

 

[Jan Mikuž]

Reiza should also get some marketing guidance from SMS if they wish to sell this beyond their loyal small player base.Sure a nice looking game can go a long way these days, but if it continues to be a barebones sim
racing sandbox, i'm afraid it will remain limited to the 50 concurrent players status.

Somehow doubt they have the team, budget atm to produce anything substantial or groundbreaking in terms of single player, career, presentation, production value (beyond simulating vehicle dynamics) to try and have a go at the borderline sim/gran turismo racing market. But, who knows, anything i say regarding the new project is pure speculation at this point anyway... As a MP player, i'm mostly interested in how engaging this aspect of AMS2 will turn out to be, though.

 

[Miguel Batista]

This reply pairs good with the Renato one on Reiza forums:

"I’ll say one thing that pretty much applies equally to AI, physics, audio which I think most agree were some of the strongest points of AMS1... Nothing can be ported over like a copy&paste flick of a switch - some fronts will demand a lot of work, others less. At the same time we would not have made the move if it meant starting any of those fronts from scratch. Most things are ingood shape already and it will only get better."

To be honest I don't understand why people going so hard against PC games specially if those aren't the topic of discussion here. Reiza licensed the Madness engine, not ProjectCars, this means they are going to develop their own product and even if based on the same engine it will be a different beast so comparing them in useless.

I am the first one not putting the PC franchise on top of my favorite titles but also I can recognize it has some good features too and comparing it to AMS2 not only is useless (still to be released and already calling it PC3) but also stupid because as I said same engine but different beast!!!

I honestly believe that a lot of pcars2 detractors felt like they got burned with pcars1. And confuse liking the way something feels with how realistic it is. I was one of the people who g
felt shafted with pcars1. I just couldn't get the game to feel good and cars behaved odly compared to what I expected. I did 't play pcars2 for a long time due to this. Pcars2 fixed most of these issues and is, in my opinion, the best package for SIM racing out there. You just need to put the work in imho. You need to tweak the ffb a lot and setups really matter! But when you get everything dialled in, oooooohhhhh boy... And, If Ian believes Reiza can still improve on that, I am really looking forward to this.
I completely agree with you though that pcars2 options are not the clearest and can be confusing when setting up your ffb which can put a lot of people off.

As far as comparing Pcars2 to AMS2, well, the physics engine will be the same so there will be some parallels there. Main difference is how that translates into how the cars drive and how you feel it in your hands through the ffb.
In very simple terms you can tell the engine that if a car generates a 100 Nm torque boost it spins the wheels and loses control or that it doesn't. Same physics different results.

Also, kudos on Ian for participating and giving us a few more nuggets of information. I for one love to hear the devs talking about their design decisions and how they reach them and would welcome his input on more discussions.

 

[natedogg1867]

Where's the early backers $1000 option?

The early backers option was 4 yrs ago... and also $2000

 

[mantasisg]

This is certainly a good opportunity for SMS to shine, if Reiza does good things it will be massive increase of respect for Slightly Mad Studios too, not only Reiza, even though I have strong criticism about Project Cars 2, and I certainly disagree that the tire model there is generation ahead of the rest of the competition. We will see what happens with the way Reiza use this engine, we won't know how much of it will be reworked though, It may be difficult to distinguish core changes from just different approach to it.

I hope it didn't cost a fortune for Reiza and I hope it will pay off, because simracing world needs Reiza.

 

[Jan Mikuž]

Considering AMS2 will have been in production for less than a year by December (according to Renato, who said they've decided on the engine only a few months ago), is it sort of safe to assume AMS 2 is all about moving onto a new, modern engine and thus providing a platform for Reiza's future sim racing creations.
As we all know 1 year in game development is peanuts. But by the looks of it, they think a port may be doable.
Still, i expect them to move the release date further into 2020 eventually.

So, if the timeline assumption is somewhat plausible, i expect the time until release will be used to port everything over or perhaps first making sure the driving dynamics/physics meet their standards, which would be the more sensible investment, imo.
We'll also get a few new pieces of content at launch + some additional functionalities, systems courtesy
of the new engine, fresh UI. Most would be perfectly fine with this, i suppose.

I doubt this is just an interim visual upgrade/port. I expect AMS 2 to be supported and expanded upon for
years to come, continuing the Reiza philosophy, tradition in their previous titles, but on a new platform, while also retaining most (if not all) of the content that they produced over the years.
Visually this can keep up fine years into the future, imo.

Looking forward to what Renato shares with regards to AMS 2 importance and longevity, future support/plans.

 

[M D Gourley]

Personally when Reiza do an outstanding job with the Madness Engine with most / all of the content from AMS1 (hopefully) we have amazing graphics / weather system etc, Reiza perfecting the physics / FFB...what else is there to do apart from adding extra features and continuing new content?
....could Mr Bell let Reiza have access to all of the PC2 content later on for their tweaking....for possibly 'The Holy Grail of Sims' (personal opinion only...with pure excitement and anticipation)