After 10 years - does iRacing have a useable tire model?

[BrunoBæ]

I have allways had a great respect for GamerMuscles assessments of racing games and gadgets.
Because to the contrary of influencers from another english speaking country he has a lot of humour and self irony.
Hehe specially self irony is completely lacking from the other country
GamerMuscle: Please dont buy anything from our sponsors

OK. A few days ago he gave a short review of iRacings new V7 tire model in the Dalara F3 car.
And now Im actually discussing with myself if I should resub when iRacing get their stuff together and does enable my favorite L79 and Nissan GTP with the new TM.
Because the main reason I aborted my 5+ years membership a year ago was exactly iRacings joke of a TM.
Hehe and GamerMuscles description of the old TM sounds like an echo of my own irritation.

Directly transcribed from the video:
6:46
"It (the V7 TM) is passing the threshold controlability (which is) passing the basic level of how rubber wheels work.
So it can be driven like a real car.
iRacing with old TM (pre V7) just dont do that at all.
9:09
The previous iRacing TM is a complete and utter disaster and joke - and allways has been."

So maybe on the next black friday I will have to open my wallet.

iRacing F3 - The New Tire Model V7 Transforms iRacing !
GamerMuscleVideos
Published on Sep 8, 2019

 

[Wayne Hutchison]

Sometimes a canned effect is more realistic than no effect.

Disclaimer - I turn off flat-spotting on rFactor because it makes the car harder to drive; sometimes no effect is better than a canned effect.

Just about EVERYTHING in iracing - and all racing sims - is a canned effect, it's only the size and numbers of cans that alters.

You're clearly misinformed...

 

[vegaguy5555]

iRacing is clearly #1 in physics and online multiplayer. Purposely lags in graphics "effects" for the sake of the first two.

That's how I see it as well. I made a comment about iRacing's detailed physics in another forum and found out some people don't think its very good.

 

[Mr.Mints_Taboo]

You're clearly misinformed...

That does seem likely.
About what exactly though? I am happy to be educated and to have my beliefs challenged.

 

[pevides]

iRacing is clearly #1 in physics and online multiplayer. Purposely lags in graphics "effects" for the sake of the first two.

By your post, I can tell that you never tried Rfactor 2. You really dont know what you are talking about.

 

[monners]

I'm not all that fast on the sims since I dont have much time to play but I do have a good rig with full Fanatec wheel and pedals and I instantly recognise the 911 GT3 Cup Car in iracing when I drive it, its very well modelled. My opinion is that since you're never going to get the full lifelike forces whilst playing a game then the people doing the coding have to find a 'fake' way to give the right feeling so it will always be a compromise. I play Raceroom and that comes close (FFB in particular is great) but it doesn't manage to feel like the real 911 the way iRacing does.

 

[maelstrom]

I play Raceroom and that comes close (FFB in particular is great) but it doesn't manage to feel like the real 911 the way iRacing does.

I'm curious to know if you've driven a real 911 GT3 car? If not, how would you know which of them was closest to the real thing?

 

[davoroni]

well too the topic the new tire model is good, it has its issues but man is it good.
consistent predictable drop off ans good warm up

 

[avenger82]

well too the topic the new tire model is good, it has its issues but man is it good.
consistent predictable drop off ans good warm up

Not quite. At least lest according to real racing drivers:

The rise and possible fall of iRacing

Brief history on the Service: iRacing started out in 2004 by John Henry and Dave Kaemmer. John is a co-owner of Roush-Fenway Racing for those who aren't aware, and so he was able to provide financial backing that has never really been seen before in sim racing. Combine that with the...

www.racedepartment.com

Also :

 

[BrunoBæ]

I have summed up some of his critical points in my post:

Does Niels do the physics and has anyone seen his latest video?

Does Niels do the physics for AMS 2? I liked his latest video on not giving up simracing if you don’t like Iracing And his explanation of driving on the limit... spot on.

www.racedepartment.com

BæTheWay: But I absolutely NOT predict some near "possible fall of iRacing".
They are way too clever managing their bussiness. Eventhough I personally think they should fire Kaemmer - and licence the rF2 or Racerooms TM - instead of iRacings existing TM monstrosity.

EDIT: After checking Racerooms latest "update" of the 2x Group C´s tire model out Im not so sure I will advice iRacing to licence Racerooms TM

 

[davoroni]

Not quite. At least lest according to real racing drivers:

The rise and possible fall of iRacing

Brief history on the Service: iRacing started out in 2004 by John Henry and Dave Kaemmer. John is a co-owner of Roush-Fenway Racing for those who aren't aware, and so he was able to provide financial backing that has never really been seen before in sim racing. Combine that with the...

www.racedepartment.com

The tires in V6 as reported by Nikki Thimm were good but they felt as if they were always fresh and didn't warm up properly so from lap 2 to lap 12 it was the same. Graham Rahal said similar in that the tires were not holding a good slip angle like the regular tires on Indycars, they were on the edge or not, which isn't terrible, but it is a more narrow margin of behavior

of course (i think it is the oval bias) in sim we know the tires do warm and then drop off like mid way through a fixed set up stint. i have not heard complaints in the dirt aspects of the racing tire though

in V7 it has been improved, but it is too extreme, it is not as gradual as a real tire- although you can protect the tire.
that said, in my experience with a real car at track days and some club racing, they feel like old tires that got some tire refresher put on them, that got old again.

certainly not a new compound race tire
LFS has very good tire but which sim do most people without race experience like best? that is what ultimately matters.
i am quite pleased with iRacing tires as everyone on the service has to deal with the same physics there it isn't exact but good,
simliar in raceroom, every one has their own "close" tire model and deal with it together.

 

[BrunoBæ]

The tires in V6 as reported by Nikki Thimm were good but they felt as if they were always fresh and didn't warm up properly

Are you sure this is what he is saying in the video where he compare iRacing with some of the competition?
Because what he is saying is that iRacings tires feels like when you in RL does fit wet tires on a car and then drive it on a dry track.

i am quite pleased with iRacing tires as everyone on the service has to deal with the same physics there it isn't exact but good,
simliar in raceroom, every one has their own "close" tire model and deal with it together.

If I understand you right in the quotation then you are saying that if everybody like in iRacing and Raceroom are forced to use the same tires(TM) - then everything is OK.
Hmm

 

[avenger82]

The tires in V6 as reported by Nikki Thimm were good but they felt as if they were always fresh and didn't warm up properly so from lap 2 to lap 12 it was the same. Graham Rahal said similar in that the tires were not holding a good slip angle like the regular tires on Indycars, they were on the edge or not, which isn't terrible, but it is a more narrow margin of behavior

of course (i think it is the oval bias) in sim we know the tires do warm and then drop off like mid way through a fixed set up stint. i have not heard complaints in the dirt aspects of the racing tire though

in V7 it has been improved, but it is too extreme, it is not as gradual as a real tire- although you can protect the tire.
that said, in my experience with a real car at track days and some club racing, they feel like old tires that got some tire refresher put on them, that got old again.

certainly not a new compound race tire
LFS has very good tire but which sim do most people without race experience like best? that is what ultimately matters.
i am quite pleased with iRacing tires as everyone on the service has to deal with the same physics there it isn't exact but good,
simliar in raceroom, every one has their own "close" tire model and deal with it together.

Yeah Nicki Thiim is one of the most vocal critics of iRacing tires. In the popular video he compared Porsche 911 GT3 Cup he said it felt like driving on dry tarmac on wet tires. Despite that he tentatively said the Porsche in iRacing had overall better handling than in AC(RaceRoom was last). But since that time the physics for that car were updated in RaceRoom and iRacing (at least tires) and rF2 released its version, so it would be interesting to see another comparison

I think iRacing has better physics than most people think, but from what I read this unforgiving handling at and over the limit, excessive difficulty to catch a slide was from the begging, even dates to previous Papyrus sims. Many iRacing members kept saying that’s realistic, “you just need more training”, yet since few years there’s tendency to reduce this “on knife edge”, unforgiving model. I know David K and other developers are working hard, but they should really listen to real racing drivers feedback and not only rely on objective data like measurements, telemetry etc. In his recent YouTube video Neils Heusinkveld explains why it’s not necessary a good approach.

It seems most people without racing experience (like me) chose sims not based on physics, tire model etc., as long as driving is fun and believable, other features matter much more, like content, graphics, multiplayer, single player etc.
I’m in the minority who cares about physics accuracy and generally rF2 has still best pure driving experience and feeling, but it’s very hard to know objectively. Another major issue is that many mods aren’t based on real data, just modder’s interpretation/fantasy. But in general when a mod is good or is official, driving at and over the limit , ability to catch a slide etc. makes most sense for me in rF2. I’m sure good, informative FFB is crucial for that. iRacing’s FFB is controversial, so say it’s not informative , but I kinda liked it.

Basing on people’s opinions AC and LFS are also good in this department, but I couldn’t get used to AC handling for a long time.Maybe that was because I started with poor FFB settings, from more difficult cars like F40 which should be able powerslide and I couldn’t finish a quick lap for a first couple hours. After many hours and properly set FFB AC felt ok for me -but I still couldn’t powerslide F40. I haven’t tried LFS.

Regarding your argument that tires are not that realistic, but we all compete with same ones - it won’t convince most simracers. You wouldn’t probably compete in NFS Shift 2, or Codemasters F1 , even if it had iRacing’s multiplayer system right? I know I surely wouldn’t.

 

[BrunoBæ]

but from what I read this unforgiving handling at and over the limit, excessive difficulty to catch a slide was from the begging, even dates to previous Papyrus sims.

I agree in most of what you are saying here - but this single point (Papyrus sims) is not right(IMO).
I have had a long relationship with the GTP Mod based on NR2003 so I know at least indirectly how what iRacing later named OTM (Old Tire MOdel) did behave in cars.
And I can say that this OTM was much more forgiving "going over the edge" than ANY of Kaemmers NTMn (New Tire MOdels).

As I recall then iRacings Dave Kaemmers named all his later incarnations of NTM as "theoretically based" TMs.
Kaemmer later renamed his TM as a physically-based model - probably when the critique started saying that his TM made the cars to behave completely unrealistic in certain situations.

Kaemmer: the tire model I’ve been developing is a physically-based model as opposed to an empirical model.

BæTheWay: I have often been having a laugh when defenders of Kaemmers NTMn use as argument against critique of the actual behaviouring of iRacings cars based on this TM - that you have to READ UP on the theoretical stuff Kaemmer have outpoured about his advanced TM which he postulates is based on socalled physically 1st principles - before they even start to criticise this legend

BæTheWay2: No the notion physically 1st principles is not a joke. Its something Einstein and Bohr should know about.

 

[avenger82]

I agree in most of what you are saying here - but this single point (Papyrus sims) is not right(IMO).
I have had a long relationship with the GTP Mod based on NR2003 so I know at least indirectly how what iRacing later named OTM (Old Tire MOdel) did behave in cars.
And I can say that this OTM was much more forgiving "going over the edge" than ANY of Kaemmers NTMn (New Tire MOdels).

As I recall then iRacings Dave Kaemmers named all his later incarnations of NTM as "theoretically based" TMs.
Kaemmer later renamed his TM as a physically-based model - probably when the critique started saying that his TM made the cars to behave completely unrealistic in certain situations.

Kaemmer: the tire model I’ve been developing is a physically-based model as opposed to an empirical model.

CatsAreTheWorstDogs: I have often been having a laugh when defenders of Kaemmers NTMn use as argument against critique of the actual behaviouring of iRacings cars based on this TM - that you have to READ UP on the theoretical stuff Kaemmer have outpoured about his advanced TM which he postulates is based on socalled physically 1st principles - before they even start to criticise this legend

CatsAreTheWorstDogs2: No the notion physically 1st principles is not a joke. Its something Einstein and Bohr should know about.

I never played Papyrus sims as back then I was more into flight sims. So you’re probably right- I just read it was already unforgiving back then. I know people say, that while from technical/engineering point of view NTM is very smart and advanced model, but in practice it always had fundamental flaws that I mentioned before. Tire behavior is more complex to simulate than Dave K thought, but I wish him success with his physical based approach. I think iRacing fanboys made a disservice to the sim by desperately trying to defend it or by saying it’s just minor issue with temps, compound or whatever and will be fixed in next version.

 

[Wayne Hutchison]

The market seems to have spoken. More people participating in iRacing that almost all other sims combined. If rF2 or ACC or AMS2 was really all that the participation numbers wouldn't look like this: https://www.iracingstats.com/pulse/

 

[BrunoBæ]

The market seems to have spoken.

Its a pretty "smart" answer - congratulation.
But as most people does agree with some knowledge about iRacing - then their 24/7 service is rated sine qua non among racing games.
Also by the many people who consider iRacings tire model as the worst between racing games.

BæTheWay: Also the pretty experienced racing game dev above(Niels H) does admit that iRacings 24/7 service is the best - eventhough he has an absolutely different view of the TM.

 

[LogintoDL888]

The market seems to have spoken. More people participating in iRacing that almost all other sims combined. If rF2 or ACC or AMS2 was really all that the participation numbers wouldn't look like this: https://www.iracingstats.com/pulse/

Having more players doesn't mean that the physics are better.
I've only heard praise about ACC yet everywhere I go, I see people complaining about iRacing.
I don't think elitism in favor of iRacing should allow it to stagnate. It's time for iRacing to improve if it wants to keep that lead.

 

[Rob Carr]

I have been an iracing member for many years. Everything is great except the feel of the car near the limit. For me at least, when i start pushing a car, slides are almost impossible to catch. Once the car starts rotating it is literally game over. I have been on a real racetrack enough to know that this is not realistic at all. Great sim platform in almost every other area. I will go back if/when they fix this issue. In this area AC nails it perfectly.

 

[BrunoBæ]

At the moment Im intensely testing the formula V10/V12 out in AMS2 in time trial on Donington Park.
And because I can remember exactly this track from iRacing its so fu** great to be able to slightly overdrive the cars and still be able to save the slides - if I just dont overdo it more than you can do it in RL.

In iRacing I just had to practice how to keep the car 100% under the sliding edge - otherwise the result was exactly as you describe.
Thats the reason practicing is extremely fun in AMS2 but was extremely boring in iRacing.

BæTheWay: Thats also the reason I will not even think of returning before iRacing have fired Goofy responsible for their lousy TM.

 

[avenger82]

CatsAreTheWorstDogs: Thats also the reason I will not even think of returning before iRacing have fired Goofy responsible for their lousy TM

This would be hard to accomplish