AC 60's LMP @ Deutschlandring - Wednesday 10th June 2020

[Medilloni]

I expect this race to be driven with "soap" cars
Never tried them but surely they are very delicate do drive with all the oversteering.

I'm in with the Porsche.

You're in Raoult, welcome

I guess they are the kind of cars that remind us how brave the drivers were in those days, that's for sure

 

[Kek700]

@Ernest Raoult
Porsche on this circuit is an easy drive, not the fastest, but easy. Tried a number of setups for the Porsche none too successful/ just could not get rid of the understeer. I am sure with a better approach it is possible to achieve a good result.
As I am not driving this car only spent about 30 min or so on it.
You can, consequently just, most of the time floor the throttle with little worry of snap oversteer , unlike the Ferrari and Ford.
I will post the setup if you wish, just seen pattikins lap time, so for most of us it will be just staying on the circuit.
This is were the Porsche could come into its own, just take the understeer into account.

 

[pattikins]

@Ernest Raoult
Porsche on this circuit is an easy drive, not the fastest, but easy. Tried a number of setups for the Porsche none too successful/ just could not get rid of the understeer. I am sure with a better approach it is possible to achieve a good result.

I can understand the ballast on the Ferrari, but would removing the 15kg ballast on the Porsche help even things up?

Count me in with the Ferrari please John.

 

[Medilloni]

I can understand the ballast on the Ferrari, but would removing the 15kg ballast on the Porsche help even things up?

Count me in with the Ferrari please John.

Glad to see you Patrick, you're in matey

Totally agree with you re BoP for this track, have spent many laps (more than the Ferrari) trying to get the Porsche anywhere near the Ferrari and it's not happening, and hasn't on any other track so far imo. So, apologies to any it might affect but for this race I'm going to take a punt and remove it from the Porsche for this race EXCEPT, if anyone objects by PM (it will be kept anonymous) and we'll stay as we are for now. If it brings the grid closer... and if Porsche's wipe the field we'll still have better info, and still be fun!

------------------------------------

For the future, if anyone would like to try these cars on a variation of tracks with different BoP I'd really appreciate your help. I'll be trying a mix of tracks, for example Brands GP, Vallelunga, Feldbergring, Hockenheim 1988, to get a picture of speed, brakes, handling... you know the stuff

If you don't know, you can apply ballast in CM by going to: single race, candidates, detailed settings, your ballast.

We might only use these cars a few time per year, but any help, suggestions, always welcome to bring them closer together

 

[Reik Major]

Sign me up please John.

Now what car? Hm.... Well, I think I like to punish myself with the GT40.

 

[Interslice]

The BoPs are a funny one. Is the ballast applied to the whole of the car or is it concentrated to one point at the centre of gravity perhaps? I'm guessing the latter as some people were saying their lap times were improving with the added weight.

 

[Medilloni]

Sign me up please John.

Now what car? Hm.... Well, I think I like to punish myself with the GT40.

You're in Reik, welcome matey

Re the post above regarding BoP, your input would be greatly appreciated when/if you have time

 

[Medilloni]

The BoPs are a funny one. Is the ballast applied to the whole of the car or is it concentrated to one point at the centre of gravity perhaps? I'm guessing the latter as some people were saying their lap times were improving with the added weight.

I don't know how the weight is applied Brian, sorry

I've set my fastest lap time with 35ltrs 'cos that's what I generally use for setups (apart from smaller, under-powered cars), I like a 'middling' fuel load for setup, if that makes sense - haven't tried it on low fuel yet.

 

[Reik Major]

You're in Reik, welcome matey

Re the post above regarding BoP, your input would be greatly appreciated when/if you have time

I'm not able to compare the cars and judge any BoP setting, because I've only driven the GT40 and just love it.

I'm fine with everything you decide. You're doing a great job, so I trust you.

 

[Kek700]

I think the 15kg ballast for the Porsche is on the end of a 10m pole poking out the back Window. That’s why it understeer so badly.

Tomorrow, will have a go off line and have another go at trying to get the Porsche to work without the 15kg ballast. I pretty much know what the fastest times are.
Assuming their is not much more time in the bag ( you never really know until qualifying is over ) I will see how it goes.

 

[Interslice]

I don't know how the weight is applied Brian, sorry

I've set my fastest lap time with 35ltrs 'cos that's what I generally use for setups (apart from smaller, under-powered cars), I like a 'middling' fuel load for setup, if that makes sense - haven't tried it on low fuel yet.

Trial and error based on race results is probably the best judge other than yourself. I think where it is at the moment is a good start based on how it finished at spa. An option if you're going to do these lmp's regularly, you could decide on the change of bop the day after the race so its well established before the next track is announced. Fairest way of doing it to my mind.

 

[pattikins]

Glad to see you Patrick, you're in matey

Totally agree with you re BoP for this track, have spent many laps (more than the Ferrari) trying to get the Porsche anywhere near the Ferrari and it's not happening, and hasn't on any other track so far imo. So, apologies to any it might affect but for this race I'm going to take a punt and remove it from the Porsche for this race EXCEPT, if anyone objects by PM (it will be kept anonymous) and we'll stay as we are for now. If it brings the grid closer... and if Porsche's wipe the field we'll still have better info, and still be fun!

------------------------------------

For the future, if anyone would like to try these cars on a variation of tracks with different BoP I'd really appreciate your help. I'll be trying a mix of tracks, for example Brands GP, Vallelunga, Feldbergring, Hockenheim 1988, to get a picture of speed, brakes, handling... you know the stuff

If you don't know, you can apply ballast in CM by going to: single race, candidates, detailed settings, your ballast.

We might only use these cars a few time per year, but any help, suggestions, always welcome to bring them closer together

I've only raced the 60's LMP cars twice, @ Watkins Glen & Brands Hatch. On both occasions the Ferrari seemed to be the preferred choice of car. I also had a look on the RSR site & I couldn't find a single track where the Porsche was the faster car!

As an alternative to finding an acceptable BoP between all three cars, how about doing a mini series of 3 races - with a gentleman's agreement to stay with the same car. For the next race we could race @ Monza 1966, where the Ford GT40 is the outright faster car:

Porsche LH - Steve Watson - 2:30.083
Porsche LH - Ronnie Boehme - 2.33.770

Ferrari 330 - Steve Watson - 2:30.867
Ferrari 330 - Ronnie Boehme - 2:30.992

Ford GT40 - Steve Watson - 2:28.204
Ford GT40 - Ronnie Boehme - 2:26.866

For the final race (Riverside, Bridgehampton, Imola '72?), sufficient ballast should be added so that it favours the Porsche.

 

[Medilloni]

Trial and error based on race results is probably the best judge other than yourself. I think where it is at the moment is a good start based on how it finished at spa. An option if you're going to do these lmp's regularly, you could decide on the change of bop the day after the race so its well established before the next track is announced. Fairest way of doing it to my mind.

I agree with that Brian - to be honest I had a bit of a knee jerk last night when I saw the difference, but now I've said it (remove the 15kg from the Porsche) I'll stick with it and see how tonight goes, I'm hoping it'll give closer racing.

Agree too about looking at the differences after each race, I'd hope (in theory!) it'd give us a fair BoP to stick with in time - though I'm guessing some tracks will favour some cars (or the reverse) depending on type of track ie. Monza is a totally different kettle of fish to Deutschlandring.

Just sat here playing with a calculator and struggling with how this fits together, with the Ford's bhp per tonne - 'cos in the right hands, on the right track it looks good in terms of lap times

Ferrari:
450bhp
792kg
= 568 bhp per tonne

Porsche:
350bhp
680kg
=514.7 bhp per tonne

Ford:
430bhp
1025kg
=419 bhp per tonne

Aero, traction, brakes, gears, setup options etc all come into play, I must be missing something obvious....

 

[Medilloni]

I've only raced the 60's LMP cars twice, @ Watkins Glen & Brands Hatch. On both occasions the Ferrari seemed to be the preferred choice of car. I also had a look on the RSR site & I couldn't find a single track where the Porsche was the faster car!

As an alternative to finding an acceptable BoP between all three cars, how about doing a mini series of 3 races - with a gentleman's agreement to stay with the same car. For the next race we could race @ Monza 1966, where the Ford GT40 is the outright faster car:

Porsche LH - Steve Watson - 2:30.083
Porsche LH - Ronnie Boehme - 2.33.770

Ferrari 330 - Steve Watson - 2:30.867
Ferrari 330 - Ronnie Boehme - 2:30.992

Ford GT40 - Steve Watson - 2:28.204
Ford GT40 - Ronnie Boehme - 2:26.866

For the final race (Riverside, Bridgehampton, Imola '72?), sufficient ballast should be added so that it favours the Porsche.

I think the idea of a mini-series is excellent, say once p month? If enough were happy to go with that we'll do it... as long as the last race is Bridgehampton

 

[pattikins]

I think the idea of a mini-series is excellent, say once p month? If enough were happy to go with that we'll do it... as long as the last race is Bridgehampton

Is it worth putting to the vote?

I love Bridgehampton. Unfortunately I seem to be working everytime it comes around

 

[Waffen]

Im in too with a Ferrari please.

 

[Kek700]

Ferrari has a cd of 0.77
Ford has a cd of 0,54
Porsche has a cd of 0,53

the Ferrari funnily looks the most aero dynamic, looks can be so deceiving.
OFFLINE:-
I cannot get within 2 seconds of my time in the Porsche to the Ferrari, but I can really rag it around this course
without ever looking like loosing it, but the understeer totally dominates the car, eventually consuming all the time.
Not sure if that is how John and Patrick see it.
On this circuit the 15Kg BOP kills the car, so tempted to give the Porsche a go.

 

[HF2000]

I did two times a 25 min race simulation with the Ferrari and in both sessions the Ferrari got much more oversteer in the last laps. Tyres were fine (all green). Is the weight and position of the fueltank modelled to have that effect?

 

[Medilloni]

Im in too with a Ferrari please.

Hi JJ, you're in matey Have to ask, is JJ your name?

 

[Medilloni]

Ferrari has a cd of 0.77
Ford has a cd of 0,54
Porsche has a cd of 0,53

the Ferrari funnily looks the most aero dynamic, looks can be so deceiving.
OFFLINE:-
I cannot get within 2 seconds of my time in the Porsche to the Ferrari, but I can really rag it around this course
without ever looking like loosing it, but the understeer totally dominates the car, eventually consuming all the time.
Not sure if that is how John and Patrick see it.
On this circuit the 15Kg BOP kills the car, so tempted to give the Porsche a go.

I have removed the 15kg from the Porsche on the practice server and for tonight Ernie. And yes, with the Porsche I was trying to drive it like a Mini... aim a few yards inside the apex, should still miss it by a yard Fantastic traction though!

I did two times a 25 min race simulation with the Ferrari and in both sessions the Ferrari got much more oversteer in the last laps. Tyres were fine (all green). Is the weight and position of the fuel tank modelled to have that effect?

That's interesting Han, I much prefer the handling with heavy fuel but had to put of understeer back in 'cos the problem you mention. Don't know if it's enough though