2013 MotoGP Season

[Hampus Andersson]

He misjudged the braking, saying it was intentional is waaayy of the mark imo.
Looked like a regular racing incident, they are human not robots.
He saw a gap and went for it, misjudged the situation and they touched.

Had it happened on lap 1 nobody would even lift a finger at it. Just because it happened on the last lap and last corner it got any attention.

In that case it just goes to show how modern racing has degenerated & how much money matters rather than skill.

Seeing as Rossi has been involved in these sort of things many times i struggle to see the weight behind that argument.

 

[Lee Knight]

He misjudged the braking, saying it was intentional is waaayy of the mark imo.

Of course he'd say that, he's covering his own backside

He saw a gap and went for it, misjudged the situation and they touched.

I shouldn't need to re-iterate my case here, anyone who has ridden motorcycles, even just on the road, can see it was anything but a mistake & definitely wasn't a 'touch' or a 'rub' as he managed to plow his opponent not just off-line but completely of the track & that's a wide section of track there....

Had it happened on lap 1 nobody would even lift a finger at it. Just because it happened on the last lap and last corner it got any attention.

First lap, last lap or middle of the race, he should have been black flagged & instantly disqualified for not only un-sportsman-like behaviour but a dangerous move that could have seen them both in hospital.
If behaviour like this is allowed then one day it will end up with someone doing a trip to hospital!

In that case it just goes to show how modern racing has degenerated & how much money matters rather than skill.

Seeing as Rossi has been involved in these sort of things many times i struggle to see the weight behind that argument.

Ive often wondered why Rossi never got disqualified whenever he's cheated in a similar manor & my argument still stands.
In a sport where the objective is to see who is fastest you apparently don't need to be fastest on the day, just able to knock your way past everyone when they're not expecting it.
Another way of putting it is "Money talks & bullshit walks".
If your worth enough money, infractions of the rules have no consequences...
And if that is the case, then it's not racing, pure & simple
If you really are faster than your opponent, whether it's outright speed or your skill getting around corners faster, you should be able to bide your time, pick the place & over-take them safely, to do otherwise.....well, Ive already made this point.
It's just childish & dangerous behaviour of a spoiled brat, no matter their age or duration within the sport.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

Of course he'd say that, he's covering his own backside

I said that, not sure what his response is to the incident apart from the fact that he was sorry.

I shouldn't need to re-iterate my case here, anyone who has ridden motorcycles, even just on the road, can see it was anything but a mistake & definitely wasn't a 'touch' or a 'rub' as he managed to plow his opponent not just off-line but completely of the track & that's a wide section of track there....

But the reason it was so "brutal" was because of the misjudged braking..
The bigger the misjudge, the bigger the impact.
Why did he not do the same in Qatar? Why did he not do it in Austin?
Most likely because it was never intentional...

If behaviour like this is allowed then one day it will end up with someone doing a trip to hospital!

Like most do after crashing themselves out you mean?
In MotoGP as a whole that´s probably one of the safest incidents you can have.

Ive often wondered why Rossi never got disqualified whenever he's cheated in a similar manor & my argument still stands.
In a sport where the objective is to see who is fastest you apparently don't need to be fastest on the day, just able to knock your way past everyone when they're not expecting it.

So why are they not doing it every single race, every single lap if it´s intentional?
By your logic they won´t get caught so why not utilize it more often?


Basically what i take from this is that every single race incident that has ever occured in motorsports has been intentional.

 

[Lee Knight]

I said that, not sure what his response is to the incident apart from the fact that he was sorry.

My apologies for that.
The way I read it I took it to be a quote....

But the reason it was so "brutal" was because of the misjudged braking..
The bigger the misjudge, the bigger the impact.
Why did he not do the same in Qatar? Why did he not do it in Austin?
Most likely because it was never intentional...

I don't know why he didn't in other races, maybe he wasn't in a position to do so or maybe the 'red-mist' hadn't adequately descended enough.
To tell the truth, I don't go out of my way to watch MotoGP any more due to such childish behaviour by some of the current crop of 'racers', I only caught the race by chance....
Maybe he did 'misjudge' his braking, but he certainly didn't misjudge his line.
When watching the replays & taking into consideration along with the braking & everything else I saw it's THAT that Im basing my own judgement & opinion on as well as my own experience as a rider...

Like most do after crashing themselves out you mean?
In MotoGP as a whole that´s probably one of the safest incidents you can have.

Crashing 'yourself' out is a different matter, there's rarely any other cause then ones own mistake.
This 'incident' may have been one of the safer incidences, this time, but what about next time?
So what are the officials to do then, let this behaviour continue until a fatality & then start awarding penalties?
Thats a rather bad case of shutting the gate after the horse has bolted isn't it?
Wouldn't it be best to start correcting their behaviour now with penalties?

So why are they not doing it every single race, every single lap if it´s intentional?
By your logic they won´t get caught so why not utilize it more often?

Because doing it once in a while there's just a bit of noise & apologists like Beatie & others who make their living via the sport make excuses for them & if one can get away with it then not many other participants will say anything in case they do the same in future.
If it happened as you hypothesize then there would be an outcry eventually & something would be done about it.
After a number of debilitating injuries & possibly a fatality or two though...

Basically what i take from this is that every single race incident that has ever occured in motorsports has been intentional.

No Hampus, there IS a difference between a racing incident & a deliberate collision & as Ive stated before, if you watch his entry line, body position & yes, the amount of braking he was doing as well as 'bracing' himself by standing the bike up slightly then it's quite clearly intentional just like the Rossi/Gibernau incident or the Rossi/West incident at Donington a few years back.
For an example of a 'racing incident' that wasn't intentional then maybe you should check a clip from the time when then team mates Hayden & Pedrosa collided & came off or when Gibernau went over the handle bars on the Ducati (another 'bolted horse' situation which caused the ruling to come in for the brake lever guards to finally be made mandatory).

Racing is about who is quickest on the day (over a defined distance in this case) & should be a sport of skill.
It should NOT be a contact sport where the last competitor on track is the winner.
If this is where the sport is heading (which it seems to be) then maybe they should re-write the rules & call it something else.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

I don't know why he didn't in other races, maybe he wasn't in a position to do so or maybe the 'red-mist' hadn't adequately descended enough.
To tell the truth, I don't go out of my way to watch MotoGP any more due to such childish behaviour by some of the current crop of 'racers', I only caught the race by chance....
Maybe he did 'misjudge' his braking, but he certainly didn't misjudge his line.
When watching the replays & taking into consideration along with the braking & everything else I saw it's THAT that Im basing my own judgement & opinion on as well as my own experience as a rider...

So that race was the only thing you have seen from Marquez up to this point?
I suggest you watch the other races. He´s been brilliant in passes before.
This was his first contact with anyone in MotoGP from what i have seen on TV.
I think it´s quite unfair but to each his own i guess.

This 'incident' may have been one of the safer incidences, this time, but what about next time?
So what are the officials to do then, let this behaviour continue until a fatality & then start awarding penalties?
Thats a rather bad case of shutting the gate after the horse has bolted isn't it?
Wouldn't it be best to start correcting their behaviour now with penalties?

Well since most riders and probably race control saw it as a race incident (which rarely happens in MotoGP) i think it´s not that much to get hung up on.
He´s been extremely clean in the races before and i genuinely doubt this was intentional.
Seems like a super happy kid that gets to race with his idol Rossi and the other veterans.
He looked like a teenage girl that had just seen her idol after his duel with Rossi in Qatar.

If it happened as you hypothesize then there would be an outcry eventually & something would be done about it.

The opposite actually since the majority deemed it was a simple race incident which unfortunately happened on the last corner which magnified the collision tenfold.

The kid simply went for a gap but misjudged the whole situation.
He had nowhere to go but forward. It´s no different then someone outbraking themselves on the inside and getting undercut by the guy on the outside.
Only difference is the collision and timing of when he got alongside.

No Hampus, there IS a difference between a racing incident & a deliberate collision & as Ive stated before, if you watch his entry line, body position & yes, the amount of braking he was doing as well as 'bracing' himself by standing the bike up slightly then it's quite clearly intentional just like the Rossi/Gibernau incident or the Rossi/West incident at Donington a few years back.
For an example of a 'racing incident' that wasn't intentional then maybe you should check a clip from the time when then team mates Hayden & Pedrosa collided & came off or when Gibernau went over the handle bars on the Ducati (another 'bolted horse' situation which caused the ruling to come in for the brake lever guards to finally be made mandatory).

Ok you believe that, i suggest you watch the other races from him.
He´s got no reason at all to intentionally wreck someone out of the race, it just makes zero sense.
I´m pretty sure they are all there to race and not intentionally wreck each other.

Racing is about who is quickest on the day (over a defined distance in this case) & should be a sport of skill.

Being quickest is just one aspect of racing. The other part is the actual racing bit.
Racecraft namely. Which guys like Rossi and Marquez have proven to have loads of.
Everyone makes mistakes sometimes.

It should NOT be a contact sport where the last competitor on track is the winner.

And it isn´t. This was the first incident of the season. Go watch the other races.

If this is where the sport is heading (which it seems to be) then maybe they should re-write the rules & call it something else.

You are judging a sport you don´t even watch, it´s pretty hard to have a discussion then.

 

[Lee Knight]

I haven't followed it this year due, in part, to the way the class is heading, but also due to local broadcasts being rather sketchy to say the least.
I've seen Marquez racing last year in Moto2 where he had a huge weight advantage.
Once that's taken into account there wasn't really much that impressed me with his riding, as in his race craft didn't really out-shine others so much once this attribute was taken into consideration.
Yes, this is the first race Ive seen of him in MotoGP's premier class.
If it wasn't an intended incident & was purely a mistake then surely he should have done the gentlemanly thing & at least allowed Lorenzo to re-pass him rather than just motoring off into the distance & he's been in the game now long enough surely to realize this.
If he had've put his hand up & backed off until a re-pass then I'd see no point in a penalty & would be thinking that it was a mistake but this didn't happen so he 'should' be penalized.
That isn't going to happen though due to the amount of money involved which most riders bring to a team & to the class..
As for having no reason then how about gaining a place on the last lap that under any other circumstances he had no hope of gaining whilst in front of his 'home' crowd?
Rossi pushing several riders off line or off track intentionally several times in his career isn't racecraft no matter how I see it.
Leaving a door open then shutting it causing an accident isn't race craft either (re; Ayrton)
Leaving room for you opponent & out racing them cleanly is race craft.
Sure, occasionally rubbing a bit of paint in tight battle is racing, but deliberate contact which causes your opponent to lose pace or placing isn't.
OK, it might have been the first 'incident' of the season, but Im sure it won't be the last, whether it's the same guys or others...
Either way, it's not racing when the one that profits from the situation does nothing while on track to remedy the situation, such as allowing them to re-pass.
Sure I may not have watched any of the MotoGP this year, but Ive been watching the GP's since they first started televising them here back in the mid-80's & Ive been following various types of racing since I was old enough for Dad to take me to the track when he raced & Ive followed the IOM since I can remember
Ive been riding motorcycles since I was 5, I first rode a sidecar for the road when I was 12.
Ive ridden motorcycles & raced cars on track with others & Ive been fortunate enough to pilot a racing sidecar a couple of times as well so I believe I have some knowledge as to the different lines each vehicle can take & also an inkling as to what racing & racecraft is.
What I seen last night from someone far more experienced then me wasn't either.
I also believe that ones on-track conduct is a part of racecraft & I didn't see much of that in this incident either.
Passing safely is a part of racecraft just as aspects of handling ones vehicle is along with 'gentlemanly' conduct.
Im sure if it was an online championship & you were Jorge then Im sure you would've put in a submission to the moderator or whomever about the incident, just as I would have, which is how I see this incident.

So to summarize (just so you don't need to pick apart the above again), IF it was an accident (which I doubt) he should have allowed a re-pass, which he didn't.
Seeing as he didn't it either confirms it wasn't a mistake & he should be penalized OR it was a mistake that he then decided to profit from & he should be penalized.

 

[Jon Turner]

All the great racers in history have made moves that others have deemed as dangerous, but they are there to win races, and i would have thought that by that point in the race and the hard charge that Marquez put in to be in the position to challenge he must have been pumping with adrenaline, all that is needed is a quiet word to calm down.
He is young and exciting to watch a bit like a young Mr Rossi?

 

[Shane Butler]

There is one thing that can't be argued with though.. Marquez's aggressiveness is terrific for MotoGP.

The race was fantastic. One of those races where you are just buzzing with excitement after, and that feeling is quite rare in motorsport. At least that's how I felt anyway..

 

[Hampus Andersson]

The guy is just plain hungry. Bit like Hamilton in F1. Never afraid to letting it all on the line every once in a while.
the way he snuck up behind Pedrosa in Austin was very Rossi-esque like we saw several times in Qatar.

It´s gonna be one hell of a season.

 

[Lee Knight]

All the great racers in history have made moves that others have deemed as dangerous, but they are there to win races

John Surtees, Giacomo Agostini, Mike Hailwood, Will Hartog, Joey Dunlop, Dave Jefferies, Troy Corser, Troy Bayliss, Wayne Gardner, Mick Doohan, Kevin Schwanze & on & on & on I could go...
How many more 'Great Racers from history' do I need to name who never rammed people for positions?
It's only since people like Rossi came on the scene that this has crept into MotoGP & it's over a similar time period that it's been creeping into other forms of motorsport.
If they truly are great then they don't need to ride or drive in such a manner to win.

 

[Jon Turner]

after watching these replays i would like to know at which point did Marquez actually ram Lorenzo?

 

[Shane Butler]

The attendance at Jerez was something like 111,000. That's pretty incredible but I guess their out in numbers to support the spanish riders. Has MotoGP always been popular in Spain? Do Spain have a history of producing great riders on two wheels? Fernando Alonso's success must also have increased Spain's interest in motorsport hugely.

 

[Jon Turner]

The attendance at Jerez is usually massive nearly always 100k+, also there has been a few MotoGP hero's Alex Criville, Tony Elias and of course Sete Gibernau were the original big guns in the 500cc MotoGP of the late 90's and onward, their passion for racing is great and i would love to go to a race there to feel the buzz.

 

[Travis]

Here is a doco on ITV4 for fans of the old two stroke 500cc bikes. I grew up watching the 'golden era' of GP racing...

 

[Travis]

The only aspect of MotoGP that I don't like in the Rossi era is the tribalism it has brought with it. Rossi himself hasn't fostered this but the powers running MotoGP sure have. Such tribalism has spread to nearly every motorcycling website and forum I visit.It's even invaded post race crowd interactions with riders and charity events such as the annual Riders for Health auction where Lorenzo and Stoner, as world champions, have been booed whilst entering the stage.

I grew up watching many of the best riders ever to straddle a motorcycle - Lawson, Doohan, Rainey, Spencer, Gardner, Schwanz (plus countless others who won racers but no world titles such as Mamola) and although you had a favourite, you respected the rest of the riders on the grid. It certainly feels that for the last 7 seasons the focus has been on a single rider and everyone who posed a threat (Sete, Nicky, Casey and Jorge) was viewed as the villan or unworthy as they'd won races/titles because of luck or better machinery/tyres.

 

[Jon Turner]

The only aspect of MotoGP that I don't like in the Rossi era is the tribalism it has brought with it. Rossi himself hasn't fostered this but the powers running MotoGP sure have. Such tribalism has spread to nearly every motorcycling website and forum I visit.It's even invaded post race crowd interactions with riders and charity events such as the annual Riders for Health auction where Lorenzo and Stoner, as world champions, have been booed whilst entering the stage.

I grew up watching many of the best riders ever to straddle a motorcycle - Lawson, Doohan, Rainey, Spencer, Gardner, Schwanz (plus countless others who won racers but no world titles such as Mamola) and although you had a favourite, you respected the rest of the riders on the grid. It certainly feels that for the last 7 seasons the focus has been on a single rider and everyone who posed a threat (Sete, Nicky, Casey and Jorge) was viewed as the villan or unworthy as they'd won races/titles because of luck or better machinery/tyres.

Unfortunately i think that is sport all over, mob mentality and i have never understood it, they are all amazing people, i know i am guilty of calling Stoner a whiney git but at the end of the day he is still an amazing rider and deserves credit as such.

 

[Travis]

Unfortunately i think that is sport all over, mob mentality and i have never understood it, they are all amazing people, i know i am guilty of calling Stoner a whiney git but at the end of the day he is still an amazing rider and deserves credit as such.

Stoner was a whiney rider but then so was Doohan, Lawson, Rainey and Fogarty - all of whom are icons of the sport of motorcycle racing. You are right about tribalism in many team sports but motorcycle racing was never about picking one rider and screw the rest until very recently. As you rightly state anyone capable of riding and qualifying for a GP in any class is a hero. One other point to remember is that World Superbikes sure isn't tribal at least at a rider level.

To be fair I have noticed a softening towards Stoner once favourable articles about his hard road to the world championship racing appeared in the same mags that often slagged him such as MCN (AKA More Crap than News) but that doesn't make up for the years where he was endlessly slandered. Rossi and Burgess were both abject failures on the Ducati after talking up their chances yet neither have been slagged off but Ducati sure have. Mind you their failure will not result in me Setting fire to my Rossi Minichamps 1:6 and 1:12 collection

Cheers.

 

[Lee Knight]

after watching these replays i would like to know at which point did Marquez actually ram Lorenzo?

Errr....when the two bikes collide?
If that's not the point then I don't understand your question as it's pretty obvious, sorry.

 

[Jon Turner]

Errr....when the two bikes collide?
If that's not the point then I don't understand your question as it's pretty obvious, sorry.

no need to be sorry the world would be boring if all had the same opinions, Lorenzo has admitted to leaving the door open and misjudging how close Marc was and has accepted the decision from the race director so lets just leave it there.

 

[Shane Butler]

Here is a doco on ITV4 for fans of the old two stroke 500cc bikes. I grew up watching the 'golden era' of GP racing...

This is on in 10 minutes. I will be watching