Very interesting to read:
http://willthef1journo.wordpress.com/2013/05/12/the-game-changer/
http://willthef1journo.wordpress.com/2013/05/12/the-game-changer/
2013 Formula One Spanish Grand Prix
- Thread starter OverTake.gg
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reading this post made me dizzy!....what ru rambling on about son!!!!
It's simple! The Bridgestone days where any yahoo can lean on them tires all race long and get away with it are long gone.
And the biggest "leaners" are the one ones that struggle the most with the Pirelli compounds
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Today's race was An important one, where we saw alot of position changes on a track that doesnt allow many
....like it or not the new rules 'bend' the old ones and provide new outcome to race results..which is something i enjoy.
It was getting tiresome seeing the pole sitter win 95% of every Spain race the last 20 odd yrs!!
Hoping for this trait to brake the spell in Monaco too.
So i'll put my money on Rosberg taking P1 in Q and Vettel in race
Lot of People said boring because. We have 4 stops but even with 4 stops the Drivers still need to look after their Tires. This is not we have any time last year. Remember last year We saw battle between Pastor and Alonso on same track, They battled hard with out worrying about Delta Time to run and did a good job. They made a 3 Stopper to finish the race. Which is what Lacking now.
Of course People will say The Changes will favour RBR or MERC or some other team but we don't want a team win just because they are good in looking after Tires.
Of course People will say The Changes will favour RBR or MERC or some other team but we don't want a team win just because they are good in looking after Tires.
I have to agree with both statements but I sincerely doubt Mercedes will get their car fixed in time for Monaco.
reading this post made me dizzy!....what ru rambling on about son!!!!
It's simple! The Bridgestone days where any yahoo can lean on them tires all race long and get away with it are long gone.
And the biggest "leaners" are the one ones that struggle the most with the Pirelli compounds
erm, which bit exactly don't you understand?
i don't understand your point about bridgestone. it's clear that bridgestone aren't the current tyres suppliers and that it's been a while. my point was that i think PIRELLI (they are the current tyre suppliers) have gone to far. do you understand that or shall I use google translate
by the way...it was raining yesterday where i live. today its sunny. however, that doesn't mean it won't rain again tomorrow
Take care "Daddy"
I won't say the race was processional, but it was very dull compared to previous races. The circuit does not lend itself to overtaking by nature, but it wasn't really the lack of overtaking that bothered me, rather it was the lack of close battles, especially at the front, and in the second half of the race.
The final 3 corners really disadvantages the car behind, and by the time they are full throttle, the car ahead is already 5 carlengths ahead.
Something must be done to minimise dirty air effects. The bigger front wing and smaller rear wing don't seem to solve cases like Barcelona.
Sad thing is, I haven't heard any other bright ideas to solve the issue - at least none that have been considered by the FIA.
The final 3 corners really disadvantages the car behind, and by the time they are full throttle, the car ahead is already 5 carlengths ahead.
Something must be done to minimise dirty air effects. The bigger front wing and smaller rear wing don't seem to solve cases like Barcelona.
Sad thing is, I haven't heard any other bright ideas to solve the issue - at least none that have been considered by the FIA.
Calum McLure
Did ye, aye?
Maybe if they removed that slow chicane for a more fast flowing one it might decrease the car in fronts advantage.
Not really. Back then they had to be extremely careful about fuel, something that has become an exception rather than the rule these days. Additionally, the cars were much more fragile so they always had to mind the gearbox, the engine, the suspension, etc. Most of these components were built to last only one race (or in some cases even only one qualifying lap), so they were quite likely to fail prematurely if the driver went flat out all the time.
F1 has always been all about engineering, that hasn't changed one bit. The drivers might be the stars because they serve as figureheads for their teams and the sponsors, but the difference they are able to make has always been tiny.
Why do you think did Piquet win just as many championships as Senna even though the latter was far more talented? Or why did Jim Clark win only two WDCs and Gilles Villeneuve none at all even though the two were far better than anyone else of their generations? F1 is and has always been about the car, not the driver, period.
I honestly don´t think they have to considering the layout of the circuit.
I expect and 1-2 Quali possibly upset by the red bull splitting the two cars.
but for the race i think they can definitely win the race.
The car has brilliant mechanical grip and there´s not much energy put through tires in Monaco.
100% spot on. Monaco is essentially all like the last sector of Catalunya and they were unbeatable through there. And it doesn't really matter if the race pace isn't good because nobody can overtake. Webber definitely wasn't the fastest last year but nobody got by him. The only possibility is to jump them in the pits, but then they just need to do one fast lap which they should be capable of. Plus, the soft and supersoft are completely different beasts, we have no idea how they work. On some tracks (Monaco being one of them) they might actually be more durable than the harder compounds (because of less wheelspin due to more grip).
Edit: Oh and looks like the drivers agree as well: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22505635
They kinda have to win this one to even stay remotely relevant.
Both guys on the podium should be a nice bump in the standings and if Hamilton wants to cling on to the Top Trio he really needs to put in another gear now.
Both guys on the podium should be a nice bump in the standings and if Hamilton wants to cling on to the Top Trio he really needs to put in another gear now.
The Mercs were pretty poor in the braking zones in Catalunya during the race, you've got a pretty good chance of out braking them out of the tunnel through the chicane. Plus you've got to be quick on your in and out lap for your stop, if your slow doing that your rolling chicane doesn't work so well.
regarding the fuel, there is a difference. in the past, you would often get guys saving fuel and then doing late charges - saving the best until last. mansell sometimes did this. in fact, you are wrong about fuel these days. if you follow f1, you should know that drivers have to select between different fuel mixes which affect lap times and consumption. the cars run as close to minimum as possible - look at hamilton and vettel getting qualifying penalties in the last year. then there was mercedes at malaysia. the difference with these tyres is, you can't just save and then hammer them and go all out. gearboxs etc were more fragile but i'd be very surprised if drivers were being told from the off to watch their gearboxes! Perhaps if there was a problem with the gearbox they would go easy but i don't believe from the start of the race?
about the engineering, i think i mentioned that there has always been a debate about this. the difference now is that, its become more of a lottery. the engineers are scratching their heads not knowing what the answers are, the drivers are and the tyres..are just falling off. they might have the answers by the end of the season but i fear that cars like mercedes are doomed by their pre-season design.
sorry but ur arguments about piquet et al are obvious answers. Jim Clarke died in his prime...he can't win titles when dead (that i know of), Gilles died and always raced on the ragged edge - prost mentions this in his book - all or nothing. senna and piquet? do you know that senna arrived on the scene in 1984 when piquet had already won two titles? senna was known for pushing his cars to the absolute limit. look how well he did at lotus as an inexperienced f1 driver. again, he died so his titles were limited. then again, if he had lived in this era, would senna be blowing people away? probably not. he would have killed his tyres defending and driving nearer the limit. in fact, i think he would have objected to the current tyres.
In Midst of this Tire saga the ICE MAN Consecutively scored in 22 races approaching Micheal Schumacher's Record of 24.
[quote="Andrew Ford, post: 1439982, member: 35964"]about the engineering, i think i mentioned that there has always been a debate about this. the difference now is that, its become more of a lottery. the engineers are scratching their heads not knowing what the answers are, the drivers are and the tyres..are just falling off. they might have the answers by the end of the season but i fear that cars like mercedes are doomed by their pre-season design[/quote]
I completely agree. http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1...their-tyres-after-a-race-bordering-on-a-farce
Personally, I don't mind if there are 3 or 4 pit stops, but please, in return give us true racing, 24 awesome guys pushing to the absolute limit with only one purpose; to go as fast as humanly possible.
Not looking after the bloody left front, that's downright lame! It does makes the sport a lottary.
Red Bull said that if they actually went to the limit, they would need 10-15 stops. And if you don't believe them, look at Mercedes!!
For me, the best moment of a race is when the crew says: "OK he's pitted. Now push like hell!".
I completely agree. http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1...their-tyres-after-a-race-bordering-on-a-farce
Personally, I don't mind if there are 3 or 4 pit stops, but please, in return give us true racing, 24 awesome guys pushing to the absolute limit with only one purpose; to go as fast as humanly possible.
Not looking after the bloody left front, that's downright lame! It does makes the sport a lottary.
Red Bull said that if they actually went to the limit, they would need 10-15 stops. And if you don't believe them, look at Mercedes!!
For me, the best moment of a race is when the crew says: "OK he's pitted. Now push like hell!".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22512693
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22505695
In my opinion these articles pretty much sum the whole situation up. There are currently two different discussions about the tires:
a) RB and MGP don't like the tires because their package can't handle them so well. So they won't changes to the tires in order to help them winning races.
b) The fans don't like the tyre situation, because they don't enjoy watching those tactical races.
In my opinion a) is just pure whining. Tires are the same for everyone, everyone has had the same amount of time to deal with them and everyone has had the same information about the tires while developing the new cars. Ferrari and Lotus just have done a better job than MGP and RB. That's it.
In this case I can understand MGP the least: How can they possibly say the tires are the problem, when they have failed to build a car 4 times in a row now, that can be fast in race pace. Tire management was their problem from the beginning in 2010 with Bridgestone. And that's also why I can't understand why they tried to force both cars in a 3 stopper from the start when that's the strategy that should suit their car the least.
If you want to win in F1 you have to deal with all variables and make the best out of it. Tires are part of the package. From a constructor's point of view I see no difference in the challenge to other years. Tires also have changed between 2010/11 and 2011/12. And guess what I haven't heard Ferrari in 2011 whining about the tires just because they couldn't bring the prime compund up to temperature in almost every race.
A side note on that:
2011 Barcelona: Vettel wins in front of Hamilton both doing 4 stops
RB more or less saying: Everything is fine. Great race and great show for the fans.
This year they are saying "we are driving at the pace of the tires, not of the car". Well Alonso showed what the "pace of the tires" is. Just do it as Alonso did when your car isn't the problem.
Now to b). I can absolutely understand than some viewers don't like they way races are this year. I myself don't like the current situation. But not because drivers don't drive at 100%. I think Alonso won in Barcelona because he and Ferrari was the only team who committed from the start to a 4 stop strategy and pushed the tires instead of saving them.
The current problem is not driving at 90%, it's not that the tires are way too soft or there are way to much pitstopps (I agree though 2-3 would be better than 4 but it's not the main problem). The problem is that these tires don't allow them to fight for positions on track.
I find myself in a dilemma because regarding a) I don't want the tires to change. Teams should simply improve their car if they are not happy with it and stop whining. What happens if we change the tires and Ferrari and Lotus are suddenly not that good anymore. If all teams are treated the same way then those two have the right to whine and demand another change of the tires.
Regarding b) I want tires to change in some way to allow the drivers to fight again.
Prielli has the problem trying to achieve b) without interfering with a).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22505695
In my opinion these articles pretty much sum the whole situation up. There are currently two different discussions about the tires:
a) RB and MGP don't like the tires because their package can't handle them so well. So they won't changes to the tires in order to help them winning races.
b) The fans don't like the tyre situation, because they don't enjoy watching those tactical races.
In my opinion a) is just pure whining. Tires are the same for everyone, everyone has had the same amount of time to deal with them and everyone has had the same information about the tires while developing the new cars. Ferrari and Lotus just have done a better job than MGP and RB. That's it.
In this case I can understand MGP the least: How can they possibly say the tires are the problem, when they have failed to build a car 4 times in a row now, that can be fast in race pace. Tire management was their problem from the beginning in 2010 with Bridgestone. And that's also why I can't understand why they tried to force both cars in a 3 stopper from the start when that's the strategy that should suit their car the least.
If you want to win in F1 you have to deal with all variables and make the best out of it. Tires are part of the package. From a constructor's point of view I see no difference in the challenge to other years. Tires also have changed between 2010/11 and 2011/12. And guess what I haven't heard Ferrari in 2011 whining about the tires just because they couldn't bring the prime compund up to temperature in almost every race.
A side note on that:
2011 Barcelona: Vettel wins in front of Hamilton both doing 4 stops
RB more or less saying: Everything is fine. Great race and great show for the fans.
This year they are saying "we are driving at the pace of the tires, not of the car". Well Alonso showed what the "pace of the tires" is. Just do it as Alonso did when your car isn't the problem.
Now to b). I can absolutely understand than some viewers don't like they way races are this year. I myself don't like the current situation. But not because drivers don't drive at 100%. I think Alonso won in Barcelona because he and Ferrari was the only team who committed from the start to a 4 stop strategy and pushed the tires instead of saving them.
The current problem is not driving at 90%, it's not that the tires are way too soft or there are way to much pitstopps (I agree though 2-3 would be better than 4 but it's not the main problem). The problem is that these tires don't allow them to fight for positions on track.
I find myself in a dilemma because regarding a) I don't want the tires to change. Teams should simply improve their car if they are not happy with it and stop whining. What happens if we change the tires and Ferrari and Lotus are suddenly not that good anymore. If all teams are treated the same way then those two have the right to whine and demand another change of the tires.
Regarding b) I want tires to change in some way to allow the drivers to fight again.
Prielli has the problem trying to achieve b) without interfering with a).
I'm personally of the opinion that Changing the rules or tires 7races into the season is an absolute joke!!!
...considering how much testing gets done at the Spanish cuircut
...considering how much testing gets done at the Spanish cuircut
Metalfreaky The Problem is We never had the F1 racing this season like we have back in 12 and 11.
RBR was Vocal about Tires but every team and Driver clearly getting frustrated due to the lack of Feel. Lot of Teams also struggling on tires to manage them. 2013 Tires clearly taken away the Defensive racing aspect. We cannot see a Driver Defending if they Defend they will end up like Jenson and Rosberg at Bahrain. Some can say Teams need to get hold of tires but the Tires are quickly degrading so that can't even understand how the Updates are working let alone Fixing the Problem.
Now Coming to stops we have the Most durable set of tires for Barcelona and still ended up for 4 stopper with Driving to Target lap times and looking after tires. And adding to insult the Punctures are a additional surprise to cover. We have Delaminations earlier but not at this level. The Tires are dangerous for safety of drivers in my view. We may have a Worse Incident if any of the Puncture happened in the High speed corners of the tracks.
RBR was Vocal about Tires but every team and Driver clearly getting frustrated due to the lack of Feel. Lot of Teams also struggling on tires to manage them. 2013 Tires clearly taken away the Defensive racing aspect. We cannot see a Driver Defending if they Defend they will end up like Jenson and Rosberg at Bahrain. Some can say Teams need to get hold of tires but the Tires are quickly degrading so that can't even understand how the Updates are working let alone Fixing the Problem.
Now Coming to stops we have the Most durable set of tires for Barcelona and still ended up for 4 stopper with Driving to Target lap times and looking after tires. And adding to insult the Punctures are a additional surprise to cover. We have Delaminations earlier but not at this level. The Tires are dangerous for safety of drivers in my view. We may have a Worse Incident if any of the Puncture happened in the High speed corners of the tracks.
I agree with you on the delamination part and that races are not the most enjoyable to watch so far this year. But do you seriously think Mercedes and RedBull would open their mouths about the tires if they wouldn't struggle? Their main priorty at the moment is to win races.
When they Horner says that drivers and fans don't like to drive/watch such races he might be right, but he actually doesn't give a crap about that at the moment.
I don't see "lots of teams" struggeling compared to the beginning 2012.
Pirelli can pretty much nothing else do than to change the tires, because the "trash-talk" of Mercedes and RB is dominating the media and Pirelli's image is getting hurt, although they just did what teams/FIA told them to do. They all met sometime at the end of last season and disscussed all together (that includes RB and MGP btw) how the tires should change for next year. Pirelli just did that and now they are presented as the black sheep.
In my opinion that is pretty much as sad as drivers are not able to fight.
When they Horner says that drivers and fans don't like to drive/watch such races he might be right, but he actually doesn't give a crap about that at the moment.
I don't see "lots of teams" struggeling compared to the beginning 2012.
Pirelli can pretty much nothing else do than to change the tires, because the "trash-talk" of Mercedes and RB is dominating the media and Pirelli's image is getting hurt, although they just did what teams/FIA told them to do. They all met sometime at the end of last season and disscussed all together (that includes RB and MGP btw) how the tires should change for next year. Pirelli just did that and now they are presented as the black sheep.
In my opinion that is pretty much as sad as drivers are not able to fight.
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