So you're basically saying you don't want Adrian Newey to do his job properly? The man is clearly a genius when it comes to this...why hold him back? They're abiding by the rules.
2013 Formula One Singapore Grand Prix
- Thread starter Bram Hengeveld
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They do drive the same car. The only difference is that Vettel gets an upgrade maybe 1 or 2 races before Webber. Other than that, cars are identical. Vettel is obviously better at car setup than Webber. Not saying Webber is bad because I'm a big fan of him...it's just fact.
David Garcia
Premium
Somebody has just added Vettel´s name in the LEGENDS list with Ayrton Senna and Juan Manuel Fangio. Now I want to die... 
You should start rating drivers by his natural talent instead of the tittles. Vettels is really far from Ayrton Senna, far from Jim Clark, and YES, definetly far from Alonso.
You should start rating drivers by his natural talent instead of the tittles. Vettels is really far from Ayrton Senna, far from Jim Clark, and YES, definetly far from Alonso.
Somebody has just added Vettel´s name in the LEGENDS list with Ayrton Senna and Juan Manuel Fangio. Now I want to die...
You should start rating drivers by his natural talent instead of the tittles. Vettels is really far from Ayrton Senna, far from Jim Clark, and YES, definetly far from Alonso.
I totally agree David, he shouldn't be on that list.
Jackie, Jimmy, Graham, Ayrton and Juan, to name a few.. all deserve to be on that list but not Vettel.
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Mark Gormley
#14 | The Silent Killer
'Legends' is a subjective term anyway, how does one quantify 'Legend'? In fact, how does one quantify 'natural talent'?
Better to have a list of 'People who have won 3 Formula 1 world drivers championships.'
Better to have a list of 'People who have won 3 Formula 1 world drivers championships.'
With the stringent testing and checkups the FIA do on the cars in Park Ferme, I highly doubt anything would slip past.
How can you say Vettel is far from Alonso, considering he has won the same number of races in a much shorter period and has won 3 consecutive world titles. If anything, as good of driver Alonso is, he is far from VettelSomebody has just added Vettel´s name in the LEGENDS list with Ayrton Senna and Juan Manuel Fangio. Now I want to die...
You should start rating drivers by his natural talent instead of the tittles. Vettels is really far from Ayrton Senna, far from Jim Clark, and YES, definetly far from Alonso.
I totally agree David, he shouldn't be on that list.
Jackie, Jimmy, Graham, Ayrton and Juan, to name a few.. all deserve to be on that list but not Vettel.
kelaroost
@Simberia
why is it SV fanatics so blind to the truth.
Its easy to win if you have the faster car with the lower gear ratio that produces better exceleration than everyone else and with more rear downforce that sticks the car to the track like its on rails.
All you have to do is compare how Alonso had to drive compensating for his understeer having to turn in sooner and hustle the car around the corners keeping his rear in check compensating for oversteer.
Its nothing to do with how many you win but how you win and in what machine you win in.
SV will never be seen as one of the best never ever no matter how many times he wins, This will only happen if he can win a championship in a slower car something button hasn't managed to do yet.
It was easy for button to win his championship but he will never be rated because of the exact same reason.
Allso you cannot compare mansel 80s ,90s car with todays car they were a different animal.
Its easy to win if you have the faster car with the lower gear ratio that produces better exceleration than everyone else and with more rear downforce that sticks the car to the track like its on rails.
All you have to do is compare how Alonso had to drive compensating for his understeer having to turn in sooner and hustle the car around the corners keeping his rear in check compensating for oversteer.
Its nothing to do with how many you win but how you win and in what machine you win in.
SV will never be seen as one of the best never ever no matter how many times he wins, This will only happen if he can win a championship in a slower car something button hasn't managed to do yet.
It was easy for button to win his championship but he will never be rated because of the exact same reason.
Allso you cannot compare mansel 80s ,90s car with todays car they were a different animal.
Mark Gormley
#14 | The Silent Killer
Why are Vettel's detractors so blind to how the sport actually works.
A car with shorter ratios and more downforce will have a lower Vmax, i.e. it will be slower.
If Alonso has to compensate for both understeer AND oversteer he and his engineers seemingly have no idea how to set up their own car.
It's to do with how many points you win. Doesn't matter if you win in a Ferrari or Mercedes, you still get 25 points.
He won't. No one has. It's a race, first car across the line wins.
Dux
Simracer since 99 / 3D Engineer & Game Developer
I dont know how do you calculate ones success or achievements, or i dont know if u r blind or what is the problem with the people all the time saying its the car its car, i said it it was a fact it wasnt an opinion, 2 out of 3 he won it because of his sheer talent his skill his capacity to calculate situations to work with the team to be on the top level on which Alonso never was these past 3 years, except in 2012 and yet in the last GP's when it was most needed Massa was the one ahead on all quals
You want to be CAUSE OF THE CAR? Okay! Then i PRAY so he has another car like in 2011 so you will see black and white how he does when he has the best car!
People will say what they wanna say. Haters gonna hate anyway. But there is why numbers exist. Now maybe he is far from the legacy of Senna for sure!!! Because both paths were different. Each in his own way hardest. Jim Clark times pretty much yeah.
But ?!??! ALONSO ?!?!!?
hahha best joke ever.No, he is not on the level of Alonso, he is one level higher than his
Dux
Simracer since 99 / 3D Engineer & Game Developer
And speaking of Alonso, for me, he has done NOTHING SPECIAL.
Special is winning a title, fighting like underdog playing a victim .. i dont care, he fails to win a title with a team like Ferrari. No wonder to me they signed Kimi, its more than obvious that Alonso is not good enough! huh
And u wanted or not but thats the reality :/
PS. we can talk it about this until tomorrow ... no one is gonna convice or show me WHY Alonso is better or should be...
26 years 3 times world champion going for his 4th. No one has the experience even given the car, to win one, and speaking for 3 in a row that would be like, impossible. But yet he did it. You go one way or the other way, he is damn good!!! Even if i admit that all his 3 titles were won by the car (which will be ridiculous) and nothing i mean nothing else. Even then!
And i hope i wont be wrong understood i just hate when someone is underestimating someones success, or hate them because they are successful. Some people go to that point saying they dont have the same cars, i mean WTF ?! Of course Vettel has 100hp more, is that it? Same cars, no one has the same cars if we are all looking for the details, each driver has its own engineer its own setup, driving style, body weight and God knows what else. Saying HIS CAR BROUGHT HIM SUCCESS ts just wrong! No one hides he has FAST CAR or fastest in 2011, but thats just not enough, you need to have skills, and if u win a championship then you must be champion to know how to do it!
Special is winning a title, fighting like underdog playing a victim .. i dont care, he fails to win a title with a team like Ferrari. No wonder to me they signed Kimi, its more than obvious that Alonso is not good enough! huh
And u wanted or not but thats the reality :/
PS. we can talk it about this until tomorrow ... no one is gonna convice or show me WHY Alonso is better or should be...
26 years 3 times world champion going for his 4th. No one has the experience even given the car, to win one, and speaking for 3 in a row that would be like, impossible. But yet he did it. You go one way or the other way, he is damn good!!! Even if i admit that all his 3 titles were won by the car (which will be ridiculous) and nothing i mean nothing else. Even then!
And i hope i wont be wrong understood i just hate when someone is underestimating someones success, or hate them because they are successful. Some people go to that point saying they dont have the same cars, i mean WTF ?! Of course Vettel has 100hp more, is that it? Same cars, no one has the same cars if we are all looking for the details, each driver has its own engineer its own setup, driving style, body weight and God knows what else. Saying HIS CAR BROUGHT HIM SUCCESS ts just wrong! No one hides he has FAST CAR or fastest in 2011, but thats just not enough, you need to have skills, and if u win a championship then you must be champion to know how to do it!
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I am slowly liking Vettel...as a driver, he his showing that he is on top of his game
Who is to say Vettel is NOT becoming a legend?
Who is to say Vettel is NOT becoming a legend?
I thin I've written this like a hundred times: success ≠ skill. I'm not saying Vettel has no skill, but his number of wins or titels isn't proof for that.
You rather mean YOUR reality.
And stop this hater bs. Just because someone has the opinion that Vettel isn't the most skilled driver on the grid doesn't mean that that someone is a hater.
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This is arguably the beauty of the sport.
You can express your own opinion about the talent of a particular driver until you are blue in the face. But the truth of the matter is....because most of the top drivers are not in the same car who is actually to know which driver is actually the best one out there.
If Alonso was in Vettels seat could he do the same? My opinion yes, Lewis....yes, Kimi....probably yes. But we'll never know. Note all names mentioned have been World Drivers Champions.....because at the time, they too had the best overall package.
I think we are all aware that many people actually say that the actual driver influence on an overall package of a car is about 10% to 15%.
But no matter how good a car is.....it's not going to drive itself around a track for nearly two hours. That's the 10%/15% bit.
They say to win a cup in football you can be lucky and win it....to win the league it is deserved.
The same can be said of Formula 1....win a race and you could have had some luck, win the drivers or constructors titles over the season, surely that is deserved.
What it comes down to is Vettel is better at getting what is available to him around the track better and quicker than anyone one else, but what he does have available to him is far far better than what is available to nearly every other driver.
And beccause of that....does that make him a better driver than some of the names mentioned above? Probably not, but who actually knows?
You can express your own opinion about the talent of a particular driver until you are blue in the face. But the truth of the matter is....because most of the top drivers are not in the same car who is actually to know which driver is actually the best one out there.
If Alonso was in Vettels seat could he do the same? My opinion yes, Lewis....yes, Kimi....probably yes. But we'll never know. Note all names mentioned have been World Drivers Champions.....because at the time, they too had the best overall package.
I think we are all aware that many people actually say that the actual driver influence on an overall package of a car is about 10% to 15%.
But no matter how good a car is.....it's not going to drive itself around a track for nearly two hours. That's the 10%/15% bit.
They say to win a cup in football you can be lucky and win it....to win the league it is deserved.
The same can be said of Formula 1....win a race and you could have had some luck, win the drivers or constructors titles over the season, surely that is deserved.
What it comes down to is Vettel is better at getting what is available to him around the track better and quicker than anyone one else, but what he does have available to him is far far better than what is available to nearly every other driver.
And beccause of that....does that make him a better driver than some of the names mentioned above? Probably not, but who actually knows?
Dux
Simracer since 99 / 3D Engineer & Game Developer
I admit i said it very differently, my point was that people are going to criticize him for whatever they want and not for sure cause they are right. Why no one never talked about Alonso Hamilton Button or Kimi in the past 3 years? Because they are simply not good enough to be speaking about them..
And maybe not the reality but for sure most logical explanation of why Ferrari for the first time since 1953 get 2 WCD ...
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Dux
Simracer since 99 / 3D Engineer & Game Developer
And ...
Make it 20% or more, just a little bit
I believe a comparison can be made given their character. They are all unique, being fast is not the key, Button beat Hamilton once, he wasnt faster he was more clever. Vettel is a whole package u see .... like Alonso is up to a point, but Vettel is a german what can we do
i dont believe in this, cause no driver is equal
Make it 20% or more, just a little bit
I believe a comparison can be made given their character. They are all unique, being fast is not the key, Button beat Hamilton once, he wasnt faster he was more clever. Vettel is a whole package u see .... like Alonso is up to a point, but Vettel is a german
what can we do
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Which is why a driver like Gilles Villeneuve is highly praised. Not much numbers, but his achievements are undeniable. That and what the other drivers said of him, which is telling.
Lets keep 2 feet on the ground, Kimi is signed because Felipe wasn t good enough.
Or we could say Daniel goes to RB becouse...
Dux
Simracer since 99 / 3D Engineer & Game Developer
Lets keep 2 feet on the ground, Kimi is signed because Felipe wasn t good enough.
Or we could say Daniel goes to RB becouse...
I wont say no, we have many cards in the game, but lets say you are right. I wonder then why they didnt sign Hulkenberg? Maldonado? Maldonado is from Jean Todt's son management. Plus great sponsors, he likes to win things, it would seem like proper replacement of Massa, either him or Hulkenberg but their choice was Kimi
little odd isn't it ?And even that implies like, Alonso is not good enough so they sign Kimi, also, Kimi escapes, i.e. he builds a barrier where he says "i came only for money" so in case he is slower he might answer "i was here only for the money"
Ricciardo is going in RB because it would be stupid if Red Bull wont have any use of their sister team i.e. driving school, so i find it normal, and they already have Vettel why they would need Kimi? Simple as that. And yet i might be wrong but its very reasonable.
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