2013 Formula One Bahrain Grand Prix

[Kartik Sri Harsha]

Well that is the general indication of DRS is Open. If it was not open why it shows that the DRS was open Message. It was working Well for Rosberg in the same Point.

 

[Metalfreaky]

If it was not open why it shows that the DRS was open Message.

That's the key question: Either Alonso's DRS really was open or the indication was just wrong.
Both are assumptions we currently can't prove.
But it's definitely not a driver error: If a driver tries to activate DRS when he is not allowed to, it simply won't open.
I think in 2011 when DRS was introduced we had a similar sitation in China in the race: Alonso had DRS on the back straight, it closed under braking and then opend again for the short straight before the last corner. I think at that time Alonso didn't activate it and it was a glitch within the controlling system of the FIA.
Either a similar thing happend in Bahrain again or the indication was just wrong. I'm guessing it's the last one.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

The FIA system as far as i know wasn´t active in Bahrain so you could deploy it whenever you liked although you´d have to face the consequences of it.

 

[Metalfreaky]

Really? As far as I understand this it a) affected the shut down of DRS for all cars in the zones during a yellow flag or rain for example and b) drivers did not get a signal when they are within 1 second.
But not the fact that they could only use DRS in the declared zones.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

As in previous races, the FIA will be unable to automatically disable DRS when necessary

Seems to strengthen the possibility that Alonso deployed DRS way to early on lap 3.
(DRS failure occured on lap 5)

 

[Dan Hawkins]

maybe this is why hes shows the finger off so much :|

 

[Metalfreaky]

Seems to strengthen the possibility that Alonso deployed DRS way to early on lap 3.
(DRS failure occured on lap 5)

"Atomatically disable" refers to the conditions I explained above.
Here the news from china :http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2013/04/14/fia-telemetry-problems-persist-china/

It also means the FIA cannot automatically disable DRS in the cars in the event of wet weather conditions or a yellow flag situation in a DRS zone.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

"Atomatically disable" refers to the conditions I explained above.
Here the news from china :http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2013/04/14/fia-telemetry-problems-persist-china/

The thing was Alonso said this.

From Alonsos's Twitter interview :

@gabiolivaresb If in a non-DRS area you press the DRS botton does it activate?
FA: No, it doesn’t activate. The DRS is programmed only for the straights where it’s allowed to be used.

Yet his DRS was activated before the line. The graphic showing DRS is only enabled when the driver pushes the button. That´s why it´s not showing open when it´s stuck.
And the fact he pretty much managed to pass Ros, before the line.

 

[Metalfreaky]

Give me a picture that showa the DRS open before the line at that moment and I believe you. Otherwise I see no reason why the theory that it actually was open and the activation system failed should be more correct than the one that simply the graphic was wrong.

Rosberg struggled with the rear tires almost from lap 1 onwards so his exit out of the last corner probably wasn't the best and in addition as you can see in the pictures he had zero KERS left while Alonso had at least two thirds of a full charge left that he chose to deploy.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

Give me a picture that showa the DRS open before the line at that moment and I believe you. Otherwise I see no reason why the theory that it actually was open and the activation system failed should be more correct than the one that simply the graphic was wrong.

Show me one picture where the graphics has failed to display what really happens on track.

Rosberg struggled with the rear tires almost from lap 1 onwards so his exit out of the last corner probably wasn't the best and in addition as you can see in the pictures he had zero KERS left while Alonso had at least two thirds of a full charge left that he chose to deploy.

He wasn´t traction limited at the point where Alonso just blew by him.
Ok so Kers graphic work but not DRS graphic?

 

[Metalfreaky]

Show me one picture where the graphics has failed to display what really happens on track.

Can't remember one.

Ok so Kers graphic work but not DRS graphic?

Maybe. That's the whole point I try to make: We don't know what theory is right and at the moment I don't see a reason why one theory should be right and the other wrong. Do you? If yes, please explain why. And still there is no sign that even if he tried to activate it, it would have reacted. All that we know is, that the system that limited the DRS use to the declared zones was working.
It's all pure speculation we are doing here.

He wasn´t traction limited at the point where Alonso just blew by him.

His rear tires were certainly in worse condition than Alonso's, so he had less traction out of the last corner. Maybe not much because the last isn't that brutal on traction but those little things add up.

 

[Hampus Andersson]

Maybe. That's the whole point I try to make: We don't know what theory is right and at the moment I don't see a reason why one theory should be right and the other wrong. Do you? If yes, please explain why. And still there is no sign that even if he tried to activate it, it would have reacted. All that we know is, that the system that limited the DRS use to the declared zones was working.
It's all pure speculation we are doing here.

The thing is the FIA system registered his DRS deployed before a DRS zone.
Seeing as yourself can´t remember a glitch in the graphics we can only assume it shows the right information at the right time.

Actually we don´t know that seeing as Alonso´s DRS light came on before a DRS zone.
Something that would have been impossible if the system worked perfectly.

 

[Jordi Casademunt]

Serious question.

In the overlay, what exactly does everything mean?

I got for sure:

DRS "black" -> no DRS.
DRS "white" -> You'll have DRS in the activation zone (detection zone, 1 sec gap, yadda yadda)

But then:

DRS green -> DRS open?
DRS green with yellow outline -> ??

I thought I knew, but watching videos I ended up confused.

 

[Metalfreaky]

The thing is the FIA system registered his DRS deployed before a DRS zone.

But we know that the telemetry of the FIA in those first four races has had some glitches.

Seeing as yourself can´t remember a glitch in the graphics we can only assume it shows the right information at the right time.

Seeing only one glitch where DRS was open outside a zone for only 1 lap (I only remember the 2011 Shanghai glitch I stated before) we can assume that it worked probably this time too. It worked in 42 races on 24 cars (22 since this season) for X race laps (too lazy to add them up) and didn't worked in 1 race on 1 car for 1 lap.

Something that would have been impossible if the system worked perfectly.

But it didn't. Sadly neither did Alonso's DRS work like it should nor did the telemetry of the FIA. So what system caused the glitch? Was the graphic wrong? Was the DRS open? If yes, was the a glitch in the controlling system or an error from Alonso? We simply don't know

 

[Hampus Andersson]

But we know that the telemetry of the FIA in those first four races has had some glitches.

Like what glitches apart from the DRS in yellow zone in China?

Seeing only one glitch where DRS was open outside a zone for only 1 lap (I only remember the 2011 Shanghai glitch I stated before) we can assume that it worked probably this time too. It worked in 42 races on 24 cars (22 since this season) for X race laps (too lazy to add them up) and didn't worked in 1 race on 1 car for 1 lap.

So the chance of it glitching is minuscule.

But it didn't. Sadly neither did Alonso's DRS work like it should nor did the telemetry of the FIA. So what system caused the glitch? Was the graphic wrong? Was the DRS open? If yes, was the a glitch in the controlling system or an error from Alonso? We simply don't know

But now you are jumping ships. Either it worked or it did not.
Who says it was a glitch?

 

[Metalfreaky]

Like what glitches apart from the DRS in yellow zone in China?

Read the articles I linked about China and Bahrain. The telemetry to the car didn't work. They had no flag lights in the car, they could not disable DRS automatically in rainy conditions or in a yellow flag zone: They simply had no proper live telemetry between the FIA and the cars.

So the chance of it glitching is minuscule.

Yup, like the chance of a wrong graphic as you stated. At least based on the data we collected during the last years.

But now you are jumping ships. Either it worked or it did not.
Who says it was a glitch?

No one. I'm saying neither did Alonso's DRS system work correctly nor did the live telemetry of the FIA (I assume FIA telemetry also provides the information for the TV graphic?). At least it didn't work in terms of flags etc. (see above).

So what do we know/ can assume:
-It is unlikely that the TV graphic is wrong (based on the data of previous events).
-It is unlikely that Alonso's could open DRS outside a zone (based on the data of previous events).
-We know Alonso's DRS had mechanical problems.
-We know the FIA live telemetry was not working in terms of flag signals inside the cars.
-Based on the problems we can't rely on the FIA system as much as in other races (at least imo)
-We know that the graphic showed Alonso's DRS to be open.
-We don't know if it actually was open.

So imo with all those information and assumptions we can neither state that:
- Alonso's DRS was open, because he pushed the button and the FIA system didn't prevent it from opening,
- nor that Alonso's DRS was open, because he pushed the button too early and the drivers knew that becasue of the FIA's problems it actually would open anywhere. So basically stating it was a pure driver error. (That's how I interpreted you at the begining of this discussion)
- nor that Alonso's DRS was open because the on car system was mechanically not working correct.
-nor that the graphic is wrong.

I don't see any of these thesis more likely than the others. What we need is visual proof with a rear view shot of Alonso's rear wing.

 

[Jordi Casademunt]

Okay, I'm gonna try to do an analysis on this.

First, lets see 3 videos:

Melbourne (Alonso overtakes Sutil):

China 1 (Alonso overtakes Vettel):

China 2 (Alonso overtakes Pérez):

There's something evident. When Alonso opens the DRS, the overlay shows DRS in green, with a yellow outline.

Another video. Bahrein, Alonso overtakes Rosberg (lap 4/5):

Again, when DRS is open, it's green with a yellow outline.

Last video. Alonso tries to overtake Rosberg (lap 3/4):

A couple of things here.
-At first the DRS indicator is green, no outline. When Alonso goes past the DRS activation signal (it can be seen to the left of the track) the indicator goes green with a yellow outline.
-After that, the DRS closes. I'm not sure if it's a glitch or Alonso closed it, or it closed on its own, but with the way Rosberg passes him again, it's likely the DRS was actually closed for a while.
-And then it opens again. Green with a yellow outline.

To be honest, after all of this I don't know what to think. The way he gains on Rosberg before the DRS activation line is a bit suspicious, but Rosberg seemed to overdrive the car in the last corner so that might justify the speed difference. Also all the footage I could find is pretty low quality, so it's hard to see anything that could help.

TL;DR: Perhaps both the DRS was open, and the overlay was glitched. The only way to know for sure is to get footage of an exterior camera.