2012 Formula One Malaysian Grand Prix

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Being slow? They have trouble even getting the car to work for christ sake.

Getting the car built up, Getting the car working, Getting the car to do a lap, getting the car to be in the same dimension as Virgin, getting the car to leave the start grid, getting the car to complete a race.

This is F1, you can´t join F1 with some spare money other teams use to buy coffee for a whole season.
HRT is a joke, you might not agree on that but they truly are. 3 years in the making and they have not taken ONE step forward.
Sorry i know you like HRT but it´s nothing personal against HRT. Had Virgin been in the same spot i would have said the same thing.

3 years.... think about it. I bet they are still off-pace in 5 years.

Which is the only point I agree with you... They are using a Williams gearbox. But the rest is the same as always. It should work...

Getting a car to leave the startgrid. Still, not a usual sight these days, but far from special. And the cars completed the race.

This is F1. F1-history is full of small teams trying the best they can. The history is filled with teams, hoping to get a big sponsor for just one season, to just be able to spend money that year - to show that they have potential. The history is full off small teams, with few employees, that is surprisingly good! The main problem for the new, small teams are the tight regulations, the lack of cars that retire. With rules, this tight, the season is very static. It's no chance for small teams to shine in a single race the way they could before. It's much harder. And, when the field is... well... artificially thight. They look worse than they really are.
But then again, there are no chance to "do an Onyx" anymore. No more German GP 94-style. It's a hard life for the small teams. And with a red flag everytime there are any more than "inters"-weather. A Brazil 03 is gone also.

3 years... Yes I think about it. 3 years was the time Honda had from 2006 to 2008, without making progress. 3 years... Ferrari... from 2010 to this year. Not exactly moving forward, are we?
Minardi used 20 years. They had a place in F1, many are missing Minardi from the grid. They didn't have much progress either. Osella was in F1 for 10 years. And, I mentioned Onyx. nearly 2 years in F1. 28 DNQ/DNPQ. But, with more free regulations, cars could work very well on some tracks. With the right chassis, and engine. So, Stefan Johansson got a podium at Estoril, and even more points at Paul Ricard. In a car, that mainly, was to slow to even get out of pre-qual.

My point with all this. Small teams do have a place in F1. They are often struggling. They are far behind. But still, throughout the history. Sometimes, they get a good season. Or a race. Sometimes, that season, helps them forward for more seasons. Sometimes... they just disappear after it (like Onyx). But it doesn't matter if they have one good race a year, or none. It doesn't matter if they just makes the races. They are doing the best the can, with the resources they have. There are many reasons to be in F1, but everyone is doing all they can to be better. Many are living the dream when they work in F1.
A last example of this is the old Pacific GP team. 35 employees... Yup, no more than 35 employees in a F1 team. The team principal, and team owners, slept in the office, in the driver seat of the truck, or even in portable toilets. Just because the money the team had, should be going to the cars, and that the mechanics should have some comfort at least.
It didn't work out more than two years. But these sacrifices, that determination to make it. Just to be in F1, to live the dream. That is what F1 is all about - Living the dream.
 
Nope they had regress instead of progress. They had a fast car which took some pole positions in 2006 and even the first win and bunch of podiums but 2007 and 2008 were total disaster. But you can't say that they didn't create a championship wining car for 2009.

My point was 3 years without progress... Which seems to be the main problem with HRT for many people. But, I guess many was happy with seeing Honda leave as well then...
 
Which is the only point I agree with you... They are using a Williams gearbox. But the rest is the same as always. It should work...
Yet it doesn´t. See my point?

Getting a car to leave the startgrid. Still, not a usual sight these days, but far from special. And the cars completed the race.
Great, they have finished a race. Last race they were not even allowed to compete. Yet they should fill up a spot in F1 anyways?

This is F1. F1-history is full of small teams trying the best they can. The history is filled with teams, hoping to get a big sponsor for just one season, to just be able to spend money that year - to show that they have potential. The history is full off small teams, with few employees, that is surprisingly good!
And where are these teams today? They are all gone because they failed because they went to F1 with less then half the money needed to actually participate in the championship.

It´s a bit like showing up to WTCC in a street car that does not work.
"well we can´t hate on them, at least they are not disrespecting anyone...."
Wrong, you don´t show up with a pajamas at a Nobel dinner. It´s just wrong. You get the funding, THEN you enter F1.


The main problem for the new, small teams are the tight regulations, the lack of cars that retire. With rules, this tight, the season is very static. It's no chance for small teams to shine in a single race the way they could before. It's much harder. And, when the field is... well... artificially thight. They look worse than they really are.
But then again, there are no chance to "do an Onyx" anymore. No more German GP 94-style. It's a hard life for the small teams. And with a red flag everytime there are any more than "inters"-weather. A Brazil 03 is gone also.

? Having tight regulations is the only way for these teams to keep up. Loosen the regs and soon we would find them 15 seconds off pace. Having stability is what they need. Virgin and Caterham have done it, HRT can´t.

3 years... Yes I think about it. 3 years was the time Honda had from 2006 to 2008, without making progress. 3 years... Ferrari... from 2010 to this year. Not exactly moving forward, are we?
Honda?
In 3 years, 88 races they took:
  • 3 Victories
  • 9 Podiums
  • 2 Pole Positions
  • 2 Fastest laps
Ferrari? You mean the team that came second in the world championship 2010?
You mean the team that came third last year?
You mean the team that just won the latest race in 2012?

Ahh that team, i´d say compared to any other team except Mclaren they are not too shabby.
Alonso is leading the championship so something they must have gotten right even in these two last races compared to the competitors.

Where are the Wins, Poles, Fastest laps, Podiums from HRT?


Minardi used 20 years. They had a place in F1, many are missing Minardi from the grid. They didn't have much progress either. Osella was in F1 for 10 years. And, I mentioned Onyx. nearly 2 years in F1. 28 DNQ/DNPQ. But, with more free regulations, cars could work very well on some tracks. With the right chassis, and engine. So, Stefan Johansson got a podium at Estoril, and even more points at Paul Ricard. In a car, that mainly, was to slow to even get out of pre-qual.
Minardi wasted money for 20 years. Why are they still not around? Because they realized they can´t afford to waste any more money.

Yea some crazy podiums and wins will happen when the universe align. That has nothing to do with regulations though.
It´s more of a circumstance-thing.

The regulations are still to this day wide open. You just have to find out the next big thing.
Red Bull´s proper diffuser blowing, Renault´s off throttle maps, Mclaren´s F-duct, Ferrari´s hole in the nosecone, Mercedes new F-duct. Red Bull´s flexing wings.

For these you need money. Not a question of tight regulations as they are open as a book even today.

My point with all this. Small teams do have a place in F1. They are often struggling. They are far behind. But still, throughout the history. Sometimes, they get a good season. Or a race. Sometimes, that season, helps them forward for more seasons. Sometimes... they just disappear after it (like Onyx). But it doesn't matter if they have one good race a year, or none. It doesn't matter if they just makes the races. They are doing the best the can, with the resources they have. There are many reasons to be in F1, but everyone is doing all they can to be better. Many are living the dream when they work in F1.
A last example of this is the old Pacific GP team. 35 employees... Yup, no more than 35 employees in a F1 team. The team principal, and team owners, slept in the office, in the driver seat of the truck, or even in portable toilets. Just because the money the team had, should be going to the cars, and that the mechanics should have some comfort at least.
It didn't work out more than two years. But these sacrifices, that determination to make it. Just to be in F1, to live the dream. That is what F1 is all about - Living the dream.

And my point is all these teams are nowhere to be seen today. If you want a good example of how to enter F1, look at Marussia or Caterham.

They have money. Because you need money. They can evolve with the sport, HRT can´t. This is why HRT will be out very soon.
Where is Pacific GP? They are gone because they could not get enough money to be in F1.

This is the fundamental problem. F1 costs money. Therefore you should actually have money if you want to stay in F1.
Don´t enter F1 if you can´t afford it, it´s simple really.

F1 is not "livin la Vida Loca" it´s a day in day out grind, if you want to be in F1 then do it properly or stay out.

This is Formula 1. Not Formula 3.
 
It doesn't matter how much progress any team makes - on a motor racing grid, there will always be someone at the back. It's inescapable.

Yes at the back we find Caterham and Marussia. Everyone respects them because they are making progress.
They are learning, they are gaining experience.

And in another dimension we find HRT, they take one step forward, two steps back. This is the HRT-way..
 
Well, as a matter of fact, so far they have done better than last season. In Malaysia 2011 both cars retired.

But as I said before, HRT this year should be considered a different team than last year's HRT. Almost the same than if it was bought by someone else, and just kept the same name.

And about Minardi, Fernando Alonso, Mark Webber and Jarno Trulli started there, so maybe it's good that it existed. Also fun fact, Adrián Campos (co-founder of Campos Meta, which then became HRT after José Ramón Carabante took control of the team) and Luis Pérez-Sala (current team principal of HRT, and uncle of Daniel Juncadella) were teammates in Minardi. Maybe they are trying to make a new Minardi.
 
Yet it doesn´t. See my point?
Look at the quote mr.

Great, they have finished a race. Last race they were not even allowed to compete. Yet they should fill up a spot in F1 anyways?
They are not keeping anyone out of F1...
And where are these teams today? They are all gone because they failed because they went to F1 with less then half the money needed to actually participate in the championship.
Then wait for HRT to go bankrupt - until then. They are here, and deserves to be there as much as any other team.

It´s a bit like showing up to WTCC in a street car that does not work.
"well we can´t hate on them, at least they are not disrespecting anyone...."
Wrong, you don´t show up with a pajamas at a Nobel dinner. It´s just wrong. You get the funding, THEN you enter F1.
Lost the clue.


? Having tight regulations is the only way for these teams to keep up. Loosen the regs and soon we would find them 15 seconds off pace. Having stability is what they need. Virgin and Caterham have done it, HRT can´t.
They will most likely be further behind at the worst. But have better chances at the best.
Marussia has been very good stability indeed...

Honda?
In 3 years, 88 races they took:
  • 3 Victories
  • 9 Podiums
  • 2 Pole Positions
  • 2 Fastest laps
Ferrari? You mean the team that came second in the world championship 2010?

You mean the team that came third last year?
You mean the team that just won the latest race in 2012?

Ahh that team, i´d say compared to any other team except Mclaren they are not too shabby.
Alonso is leading the championship so something they must have gotten right even in these two last races compared to the competitors.
You see that I talked about 06-08, because that is 3 years. The same as you are talking about regarding HRT. Then, taking stats from the 60's doesn't really fit in.

Yup, 2nd in 2010. 3rd in 2011, and struggling very much with the car in 2012. It doesn't look like progress...

Where are the Wins, Poles, Fastest laps, Podiums from HRT?
Nowhere, because you don't have to win, to be in F1. Ask Arrows... or Sauber.

Minardi wasted money for 20 years. Why are they still not around? Because they realized they can´t afford to waste any more money.
Again, then wait for HRT get bankrupt. 20 years in F1, are way more than most of the teams through the history. Actually more than Honda, BMW and other big teams have been...

Yea some crazy podiums and wins will happen when the universe align. That has nothing to do with regulations though.
It´s more of a circumstance-thing.
Sometimes, yes, sometimes. No. In the Onyx situation as I'm talking about, Johansson qualified 11th, and didn't pit. Speed and strategy.

The regulations are still to this day wide open. You just have to find out the next big thing.
Red Bull´s proper diffuser blowing, Renault´s off throttle maps, Mclaren´s F-duct, Ferrari´s hole in the nosecone, Mercedes new F-duct. Red Bull´s flexing wings.

For these you need money. Not a question of tight regulations as they are open as a book even today.
Not only talking about aero. Engines is a big part of the deal as well.

And my point is all these teams are nowhere to be seen today. If you want a good example of how to enter F1, look at Marussia or Caterham.
Which haven't made very much progress either... Still struggling behind.

They have money. Because you need money. They can evolve with the sport, HRT can´t. This is why HRT will be out very soon.
Where is Pacific GP? They are gone because they could not get enough money to be in F1.

This is the fundamental problem. F1 costs money. Therefore you should actually have money if you want to stay in F1.
Don´t enter F1 if you can´t afford it, it´s simple really.

F1 is not "livin la Vida Loca" it´s a day in day out grind, if you want to be in F1 then do it properly or stay out.

This is Formula 1. Not Formula 3.

Until they are bankrupt. They are here. As long as a team is in the sport. They deserve to be there. HRT isn't any Andrea Moda. F1's reputation isn't any worse because of HRT. HRT doesn't keep anyone out of the sport.
Where is the limit of "afford" F1? Marussia? Caterham? Force India? Ferrari? Toyota? Or, do you afford it, when you can run the season?

Even though I am a HRT-fan, I'm not happy with where they are at the moment. But, no-one have ever come up with a good argument on why they shouldn't be there.
 
The problem there is, where is the "natural" limit. For the last few years, it's been very close. But that's not whats normal in F1. Why not 103? or 104? Maybe even 110? I never fully understand why they came up with those 7 percents.

It may have absolutely nothing to do, but if a driver is doing 107% the time of another, he will be lapped (very approximately) in 10 laps. So maybe somebody agreed that nobody should so slow to be lapped in the first 10 laps (round number) and backcalculated the 7%.
 
It may have absolutely nothing to do, but if a driver is doing 107% the time of another, he will be lapped (very approximately) in 10 laps. So maybe somebody agreed that nobody should so slow to be lapped in the first 10 laps (round number) and backcalculated the 7%.

That would actually fit very well. The rule was new in 1996, after some complaints about Giovanni Lavaggi and Jean-Denis Deletraz. At least Deletraz was lapped before lap 10 on 2 (or even more) races.
 
GP2 Pole Position - 1.45.4
HRT Qualifying Narain - 1.43.6
F1 Pole Position - 1.36.2

2.2 seconds faster then a GP2 car.
7.4 seconds to the fastest F1 car.

HRT is a joke. Maybe they should join GP2 with their car? It´s made by the same manufacturer so hopefully they will be on pace there.
But i would not be so sure on that.
 
Yes Hampus we know your opinion, and honestly I'm getting tired of reading your comments.
1. Only rich teams that can fight for wins are allowed in F1 but they also have to improve.. (Well many rich teams are not improving, or they're just leaving F1 because of a worse financial situation or just lack of success)
2. The fact teams with less are nearly unable to shine with the current regulations is a fact you just throw into the dust bin.
3. You don't give a team which changed owners any chance
4. You don't like Minardi
5. Many more opinions I don't agree with.

I'd rather see 24 cars fighting on a grid than 10 or 12 cars..

HRT needs stability, experience.

So what do they do? well they get rid of 80% of the team, buy new stuff.
Great move by HRT...
I guess in three years they will do it again, and start over....again.

Indeed, so what did they do?
Hire Pedro de la Rosa, known for his experience and development qualities at McLaren.
Hire Narain Karthikeyan for the money to develop
Build-up the team from the ground, and try to finally improve..


I just wonder how good that Colin Kolles guy was..
He crapped at Midland, Spyker and HRT..
 
I just wonder how good that Colin Kolles guy was..
He crapped at Midland, Spyker and HRT..

Actually I belive Kolles is extremely good. In certain areas. In teams with little money, and a lack of organization. He is the man to have. Without him, HRT wouldn't have made it in 2010. And without him, HRT most likely wouldn't been on the grid in 2011 either.
He is not a person with huge skills when it comes to management, and how to handle drivers. But he does the things that's the best for the survival of the team.
 
Yes Hampus we know your opinion, and honestly I'm getting tired of reading your comments.
Do you know what you can do? NOT read them.

1. Only rich teams that can fight for wins are allowed in F1 but they also have to improve.. (Well many rich teams are not improving, or they're just leaving F1 because of a worse financial situation or just lack of success)
Really that is why i have huge respect for what Marussia and Caterham is doing?
They can actually afford to be in F1. HRT cannot.

2. The fact teams with less are nearly unable to shine with the current regulations is a fact you just throw into the dust bin.
This is the only way for them to catch up. If regulations are open it means cars EVOLVE.
If you don´t have money to evolve, you WILL STAND STILL.
F1 has never been this cheap in recent years yet there is one team that can´t even afford that which means they should not be in there in the first place. Taking up a place where another more financially stable team could take that spot.


3. You don't give a team which changed owners any chance
Hmm really? I remember Stewart GP being bought by Jordan then by Red Bull.

what is the most succesful of them all? And which is richest of them all. Yes you don´t have to answer those obvious questions...

4. You don't like Minardi
Bench-warmers for 20 years.

5. Many more opinions I don't agree with.
*taking notes* Read first comment.

I'd rather see 24 cars fighting on a grid than 10 or 12 cars..
I´d rather see 3 caterham/virgin teams then 2 caterham/virgin teams and one GP2 team.

HRT is definitely not the only other team in the world. Plenty of other teams can join F1 with more money then HRT.

Indeed, so what did they do?
Hire Pedro de la Rosa, known for his experience and development qualities at McLaren.
Hire Narain Karthikeyan for the money to develop
Build-up the team from the ground, and try to finally improve..
Ahh Deja Vu, i´m sure they had this plan when they started their first year in F1 don´t you think?


I just wonder how good that Colin Kolles guy was..
He crapped at Midland, Spyker and HRT..
As good as the HRT team.
 
Do you know what you can do? NOT read them.
Which is what more and more people choose to :)


Taking up a place where another more financially stable team could take that spot.
If there had been 13 teams in F1 already, I could've seen the point. But there are an open spot.

Hmm really? I remember Stewart GP being bought by Jordan then by Red Bull.
Jaguar :) Typo me guess :)

It´s a forum, this is to be expected. I have my opinion on HRT (not a personal one, an objective one) and you obviously have yours.
Naah, then you would've seen the open spot, and not been bothered about that, because there are an open spot.
 
Which is what more and more people choose to :)
Is this the part where i should care about if someone else is reading my post or not?

If there had been 13 teams in F1 already, I could've seen the point. But there are an open spot.
12 teams is enough. HRT will probably be out before a new one comes in anyways.


Jaguar :) Typo me guess :)
Bingo!


Naah, then you would've seen the open spot, and not been bothered about that, because there are an open spot.
I think you need to read that one more time :)
 
Anyway if joining ebcause you just like the sport even though you fail to be really competitive is not allowed...(Like how many team owners did)..
Why are there still Swedish, Scottish, Norwegian and Dutch football teams? They've no chance to ever win a European or global prize.
Why are there amateur teams with more than 12 'adult' teams? (The 12th team is just bunch of beer drinking guys)..

And who knows whether the big teams have an enormous debt or make huge losses?

like Real Madrid, man utd, Liverpool and FC Barcelona have huge debts, yet they're still allowed to play against teams who have no debts (teams from Germany and the Netherlands have to comply to their budget. A debt would mean huge problems and restructuring.). While the English and Spanish teams can just play on with enormous debts (more than €500 milion)..
That just makes the competition unfair.
 
Can you imagine how many times HRT would be outside of 107% if there wasnt 3 stages of qualifying (considering they only compare their time to the best time in Q1, which is usually run on hard tyres and quite a far way off the true pole)? Thats my issue.
 
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