2012 Formula One Bahrain Grand Prix
- Thread starter Scott Webber
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Well, there's that Clark guy. I heard everyone thought he was a pretty terrible driver.
Or maybe they said he was a terrific driver.
And yeah, raw pace wise, Hamilton is probably at the top of the current F1 drivers. He's had a good season start, but some bad luck in Bahrein.
And honestly, saying Vettel is a bad driver implies that all the other drivers in F1 aren't that good either. Even with the best car (which the Red Bull was last year), a bad driver wouldn't have won 11 races, with a total of 17 podiums in 19 races, and just 1 retirement.
Or maybe they said he was a terrific driver.
And yeah, raw pace wise, Hamilton is probably at the top of the current F1 drivers. He's had a good season start, but some bad luck in Bahrein.
And honestly, saying Vettel is a bad driver implies that all the other drivers in F1 aren't that good either. Even with the best car (which the Red Bull was last year), a bad driver wouldn't have won 11 races, with a total of 17 podiums in 19 races, and just 1 retirement.
Nobody is saying he´s ****. Some of us just realize that when he won his titles he had two of the most dominant cars of all-time.
Last car he had was on some tracks closer to a second clear of anyone else.
the only person he had to fight for the title was his teammate.
If you compare those titles with Raikkonens, Hamilton´s, Alonso´s they all fought like warriors throughout the season to win their championship.
Back then teams were equal. 09-10-11 was loaded with loopholes or other weird stuff.
If the cars stay equal as they are now and no team runs away pace-wise and Vettel wins the title i can garantuee you i will honor him as highly as the rest of the the Top drivers.
Alonso said it best. "I´ve seen Lewis doing amazing performance with not always the fastest car, i´ve seen Lewis winning races when starting in the middle of the pack" etc.
"So far we haven´t seen the same thing from Vettel".
Both Alonso and Button has driven with Hamilton and they both say the same things. He does stuff with the car that really should not be possible.
Button said when the car is absolute crap Hamilton still finds a way to go quickly with the car.
Jim Clark? one of the fastest and best drivers of all time
My point is that it´s too early to really judge him now.
In 2010 he definitley fought hard against Alonso and it was very close in the end.
Yes, this Year the RBR is not as dominant as it was in previous years.
so, now that the cars are closer at performance, it will be interesting to see what Vettel can do.
Well you can say that because it was true after all and With out so much hard work he can't even deliver that at any cost
Taking 15 poles in a season was almost difficult even though you have best car
And for 2012 season i say he can still go for his Championship because he proved that he can do Overtakes as lot of people think he cannot overtake when he was in pack
I was eagerly waiting for RBR for Mugello test that what they will improve on their car and How SEB will perform his European Season
I think after German race we can see the Potential Title contenders due to the Unpredictable season start
What's the lowest position Vettel has won the race from?
Not sure but second is my guess.
I think it was from 3rd (Malaysia 10)
Since how many Seasons is Vettel in a competitive car? 2009-2012
Hamilton = 2007-2012
Alonso= 2003-2012
etc.
man give Vettel a few years. Im not saying he's the best but let´s just wait a little. Maybe with more experience he is the next Schumacher? or maybe the next Massa? Who knows...
I don't think he will BE like any one you suggested he will be Vettel and until he has the Fire to fight then he will try to do his best
Upto Last year lot of people said that he cannot overtake and he was only Expert in Pole to Podium
But this year he proved that he too can overtake
Australia : P6 to P2 (despite of safety car he can make P3 or P2)
Malaysia : P6 to P4 (until Clash with Cucumber)
China : 11 to P5( Lost 3 places due to 2 stop strategy)
No need to include bahrain i guess
Lot say that he can do Best only when he had a best car but '12 he was giving his despite he didn't have the best car package
So lets see what will he do in this season After the end of season i think no one can question him about his abilities.
A short time ago in a paddock not so far, far away….
Darth Schumious: “You’re fulfilling your destiny, Nico. Become my apprentice. Learn to use the Dark Side of the Force…”
Nico Roswalker: “I will do whatever you ask…”
Darth Schumious: “Every single driver, including your friend, Obi-Formula-Wan Kenobi, is now an enemy of The Team”
See the RaceCarToon here
Darth Schumious: “You’re fulfilling your destiny, Nico. Become my apprentice. Learn to use the Dark Side of the Force…”
Nico Roswalker: “I will do whatever you ask…”
Darth Schumious: “Every single driver, including your friend, Obi-Formula-Wan Kenobi, is now an enemy of The Team”
See the RaceCarToon here
You may exclude 2009 from both Hamilton and Alonso
About Vettel - despite his stupid finger this guy is sublime tallent and he showed this in 2008 with the crappy Toro Rosso. In 2011 Webber couldn't get as much 2nd places as Vettel took wins in the same car Didn't he also race in 2007 for Toro Rosso and finished 4th in Shanghai?You may exclude 2009 from both Hamilton and Alonso
Speaking about Sebastian Vettel How many of you say he Didn't have skills and how many say he Has Skills to be a Best Driver
Yep, exactly
Alright let's look on this topic from a diferent perspective.
So let's say a fast/talented driver wants to win the championship, what will he need to win the championship? (A fast car)
Would then any of the F1 legends in history of F1 be able to win todays F1 championship with a slow car like, Sauber's or Ferrari's? (nope)
Button complitly dominated the year which he won the championship and Schumi did the same (not to mention several times). So did Vettel two seasons in a row and he have been called a spoiled driver just because he had a fast car and now he doesn't... (But what about Button and Schumi?)
Plus all talented drivers start in a slow F1 team and eventually get into a fast team. (sure, Hamilton was an exception but do you find him being a very slow driver who lacks talent compared to the other 5 champions?) Vettel have taken that path by driving for Toro Rosso and then got into RBR and challenged Button in 2009 for the championship with a car that seemed like being in Mclarens place in 2010 while Brawns car was in Red Bulls place in 2010.
In 2010 Vettel won the championship in almost the same way as Raikkonen in 2007 , by simply being consistant, having a competitive car and simply having the right timing as Alonso and Hamilton screwed up their chanses. (which is kind of a mirror of what happen to Webber and Alonso in Abu Dhabi) Surely some might say that you can't compare this two complitly diferent years but my point is that Vettel didn't win his championships as easely as people tend to think.
I belive that Vettel is as talented as the other 5 champions but I belive that people think he just had a very simple path in his career and forget that the man who got into a fast car in his rookie year in F1 was Hamilton and ALMOST won the championship in 2007. (and people don't call him as spoiled as Vettel...)
Hopefully we can have a friendly argument about this topic.
Cheers.
So let's say a fast/talented driver wants to win the championship, what will he need to win the championship? (A fast car)
Would then any of the F1 legends in history of F1 be able to win todays F1 championship with a slow car like, Sauber's or Ferrari's? (nope)
Button complitly dominated the year which he won the championship and Schumi did the same (not to mention several times). So did Vettel two seasons in a row and he have been called a spoiled driver just because he had a fast car and now he doesn't... (But what about Button and Schumi?)
Plus all talented drivers start in a slow F1 team and eventually get into a fast team. (sure, Hamilton was an exception but do you find him being a very slow driver who lacks talent compared to the other 5 champions?) Vettel have taken that path by driving for Toro Rosso and then got into RBR and challenged Button in 2009 for the championship with a car that seemed like being in Mclarens place in 2010 while Brawns car was in Red Bulls place in 2010.
In 2010 Vettel won the championship in almost the same way as Raikkonen in 2007 , by simply being consistant, having a competitive car and simply having the right timing as Alonso and Hamilton screwed up their chanses. (which is kind of a mirror of what happen to Webber and Alonso in Abu Dhabi) Surely some might say that you can't compare this two complitly diferent years but my point is that Vettel didn't win his championships as easely as people tend to think.
I belive that Vettel is as talented as the other 5 champions but I belive that people think he just had a very simple path in his career and forget that the man who got into a fast car in his rookie year in F1 was Hamilton and ALMOST won the championship in 2007. (and people don't call him as spoiled as Vettel...)
Hopefully we can have a friendly argument about this topic.
Cheers.
Ya this is the point i was saying no driver can win a Championship with out best packageAlright let's look on this topic from a diferent perspective.
So let's say a fast/talented driver wants to win the championship, what will he need to win the championship? (A fast car)
Would then any of the F1 legends in history of F1 be able to win todays F1 championship with a slow car like, Sauber's or Ferrari's? (nope)
Button complitly dominated the year which he won the championship and Schumi did the same (not to mention several times). So did Vettel two seasons in a row and he have been called a spoiled driver just because he had a fast car and now he doesn't... (But what about Button and Schumi?)
Plus all talented drivers start in a slow F1 team and eventually get into a fast team. (sure, Hamilton was an exception but do you find him being a very slow driver who lacks talent compared to the other 5 champions?) Vettel have taken that path by driving for Toro Rosso and then got into RBR and challenged Button in 2009 for the championship with a car that seemed like being in Mclarens place in 2010 while Brawns car was in Red Bulls place in 2010.
In 2010 Vettel won the championship in almost the same way as Raikkonen in 2007 , by simply being consistant, having a competitive car and simply having the right timing as Alonso and Hamilton screwed up their chanses. (which is kind of a mirror of what happen to Webber and Alonso in Abu Dhabi) Surely some might say that you can't compare this two complitly diferent years but my point is that Vettel didn't win his championships as easely as people tend to think.
I belive that Vettel is as talented as the other 5 champions but I belive that people think he just had a very simple path in his career and forget that the man who got into a fast car in his rookie year in F1 was Hamilton and ALMOST won the championship in 2007. (and people don't call him as spoiled as Vettel...)
Hopefully we can have a friendly argument about this topic.
Cheers.
Vettel 11 wins in 2011 was also not easy one's he had to drive to his Limits and making distances from the car behind because he know he got the less KERS package and his car wasn't fast on straights compared to other cars
And About Lewis i say he was in best package for until now and he delivered in his second year
I really want to see lewis in any other car in the future so that how he gets the things to challenge
So lets see how every one in this season performs
You have to compare championships with how competitive the teams are.
If your team plays in it´s own league performance wise, all your driver has to do is stay on the track.
Compare that to 2007 when Kimi won. He had Alonso and Hamilton chasing him, winning races etc.
He had Massa which was quick back then, the BMW´s did their part as well. At the beginning of the season you could not say "that guy is going to win"
Last two years you could. We knew in Australia both times that Vettel would win this if he just kept it on the tarmac.
If you are fighting someone for the championship it will automatically mean more then if you are basically only fighting yourself.
If your team plays in it´s own league performance wise, all your driver has to do is stay on the track.
Compare that to 2007 when Kimi won. He had Alonso and Hamilton chasing him, winning races etc.
He had Massa which was quick back then, the BMW´s did their part as well. At the beginning of the season you could not say "that guy is going to win"
Last two years you could. We knew in Australia both times that Vettel would win this if he just kept it on the tarmac.
If you are fighting someone for the championship it will automatically mean more then if you are basically only fighting yourself.
But didn't Ferrari have the fastest car in 2007 compare to the rest of the grid? (I think you said so last year in an very old topic)
Never the less, in 2007 Kimi had 6 wins while Vettel in 2010 had 5 wins and as you said "He had Massa which was quick then" who was his team mate but never the less Webber was also quick in 2010 dispite that many found him to be slow.
I mentioned the amount of wins in the begining because in 2007 the man with the most wins was Kimi followed by also Hamilton and Alonso with 4 and Massa with 3. While in 2010 Vettel and Alonso had 5 wins each followed by Webber with 4 wins, Hamilton with 3 and Button with 2.
Surely their were more rounds in 2010 and the grid was less consistant which ment that the other teams would win a couple of races. In 2007 you only had a Ferrari vs Mclaren battle while in 2010 you had a RBR vs Mclaren vs Ferrari battle in the races (in qualify RBR was unstopable but in race they could be a bit more equal compare to the rest of the grid).
2007 results: http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2007/
2010 results: http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2010/
But I belive we are moving out of the meaning of my previous argument, I wasn't trying to compare Kimi and Vettel, I was trying to simply say that in one way or the other his championship win wasn't as easy as people say. A good driver will always get into a good team like Schumi did when he went from Jordan to Benetton and then to Ferrari and helped them to develop a fast car although they didn't have a slow car to begin with.
2011 was with out a dought a season which RBR and Vettel complitly dominated but if a team starts with a fast car like RBR did in 2010 then they would surely have a better base car to built on for 2011 and make it faster then the 2010 car (kind of what Ferrari did with Schumi).
Schumi moving from team to team: http://www.formula1.com/teams_and_drivers/drivers/7/
Never the less, in 2007 Kimi had 6 wins while Vettel in 2010 had 5 wins and as you said "He had Massa which was quick then" who was his team mate but never the less Webber was also quick in 2010 dispite that many found him to be slow.
I mentioned the amount of wins in the begining because in 2007 the man with the most wins was Kimi followed by also Hamilton and Alonso with 4 and Massa with 3. While in 2010 Vettel and Alonso had 5 wins each followed by Webber with 4 wins, Hamilton with 3 and Button with 2.
Surely their were more rounds in 2010 and the grid was less consistant which ment that the other teams would win a couple of races. In 2007 you only had a Ferrari vs Mclaren battle while in 2010 you had a RBR vs Mclaren vs Ferrari battle in the races (in qualify RBR was unstopable but in race they could be a bit more equal compare to the rest of the grid).
2007 results: http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2007/
2010 results: http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2010/
But I belive we are moving out of the meaning of my previous argument, I wasn't trying to compare Kimi and Vettel, I was trying to simply say that in one way or the other his championship win wasn't as easy as people say. A good driver will always get into a good team like Schumi did when he went from Jordan to Benetton and then to Ferrari and helped them to develop a fast car although they didn't have a slow car to begin with.
2011 was with out a dought a season which RBR and Vettel complitly dominated but if a team starts with a fast car like RBR did in 2010 then they would surely have a better base car to built on for 2011 and make it faster then the 2010 car (kind of what Ferrari did with Schumi).
Schumi moving from team to team: http://www.formula1.com/teams_and_drivers/drivers/7/
Where did i say that?
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