Watch: We Are Worried About Microtransactions in Racing Games!

Personally, I still think the Assetto Corsa sales principle is the best. A few DLC and open to modding.
Topic modding: Yes, there are mods that are worth spending money on. But then you have to live with the fact that in most cases you don't have original names. For licensing reasons. For this reason my skins will never receive a paywall. I prefer to enjoy praise, criticism and suggestions from the community.

Aiden237 said:

Funny how you mention about “bad” “stolen” or “ridiculous” content you just said about Skin paterons.

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I gave some examples and skin patreons falls into category - ridiculous.

Look here at RD how many thousands of skins the skinners provided - without a price tag. Like in earlier days, they make it because it`s pation, it´s their hobby. They are lucky to create and share something.
But this is going more and more lost by sheer money greed.

I don´t want to discuss this anymore. Everything is already said. And who am i to dictate your opinion?

sim racers are already dumb enough to pay lots of money for setups, of course games are going to take advantage of the idiots in simracing

Mekonrider said:

I am more bothered about the plans for microtransactions for real cars!! All this nonsense with subscriptions for heated seats etc. Probably have to buy yourself bonus launches in your Golf R after you've used them all up.

Codemasters started all this in racing with Dirt and the DLC cars that were already done and coded into the game?

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That's one of the reasons, why I only drive old cars. I also don't need or want hundreds of sensors and driving aids. I'm pretty happy with my 80s and 90s Audis without all that garbage.

Don't worry.

It will just be a momentary passing disturbance.

It is a provocative underestimation of the intelligence of the average consumer to think that they fall for such antics.

Or can you simply declare that the intellectual and self-thinking ability where you frequently stop and be thoughtful and allow yourself time and space peaked 40-50 years ago?

And now has been replaced by a whole generation that has grown up with need postponement not is an option and is replaced by infinite impatience?

As soon as that number becomes a majority, we are faced with severe problems

Maybe it has already happened.

In that case, I'll just be happy that my arsenal of sims and mods lasts for several ice ages and stop worrying about pointless pale head money grabbers from their terrorist cells being successful in laying out bait for huge hords of lemmings.

Lots of comments about modding so here's my take - focusing on AC which is really the only platform worth mentioning at this point. The hundreds of Patreons with crap conversions, things like RTM or what they are called now, etc. is a big big scam. I respect free conversions that are done well (a few modders do that), but selling them is just a no-no from multiple aspects.

Teams like RSS, VRC, URD, again often kind of abusing licensing, but making original work and high quality work. But paying 5 Euros for 1 car when the game itself (bigger part of the equation than many give credit to) and its content (150+ cars and X tracks) is priced at say 100 Euros at the most expensive scenario (no deals) is just so disproportionate.

With the detail levels and thus amount of work needed to create a truly high quality mod going up, I think that modding in the traditional way isn't the way to go forward. It's very easily abused legally and financially, and from a consumer perspective the price is just going to be way too high in comparison to the product the actual mod connects to.

Metla said:

I'll put a similar comment to the one I put on the video.

The fact that a large portion of the sim community supports the iRacing model just shows that we are the problem, EA would never get away with a scam such as this.

Makes the horse example seem a bit cute.

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Entirely true. It is the acceptability threshold which fixes this type of evolution. As long as the players accept and pay, then the phenomenon will remain entrenched in the business models.

SW Development costs money. I'm willing to pay for improved Sims, innovations and functional Multiplayer services - as long as no questionable pay to win models come into play. People spend thousands of dollars for Hardware but are thrifty with what drives it in the first place ;-)

my main gripe is when content is intentionally held back on release of a game for future DLC, basically taking the proverbial out of the consumer. Apart from the odd dlc and season pass I rarely stump up nowadays, old and tight as a gnats chuff

Stuff is worth what somebody is willing to give for it.

The problem starts not before the offer is hidden, players get unknowingly lured into a pay-for-win model, and other underhanded behaviour by producers.

I once had a simple FFB wheel, quite cheap. I could not imagine to spend a four digit price on pedals, wheelbase and two wheelrims, I found it was hilarious. Well, I changed, and now I spent that money, actually already some time ago. Because now it was worth it to me.

VR is still expensive. But its worth it to me. That does not mean it must be worth it for everybody else. For me the formula calculates well, and that is what counts for me.

Some people spend insane ammoutns of money on top notch PC harware and multimonitor setups in hardware cabin frames and seats. Well, must I comment that positively or negatively? No. I just can let them do their thing and wish them good enjoyment. Their way is not my way, I prefer VR. "Jedem Tierchen sein Pläsierchen."

Why seeing it differently with microtransaction business models? People can vote with their wallets. And we live in the golden age of racing titles, we have so many choices, its hilarious.

If you dont like it, then dont buy it. That simple.

[VR-exclusive driver of AC, ACC, RR.]

About micro transactions, i will just remember everyone that there is a thing called gambling laws and restrictions. You see, someone at some point realized that there is a difference between selling a product, and creating a damaging addiction in someone. This addiction cannot be blamed solely on the victim, and it's not reasonable to expect them to "cure" themselves from it on their own. So quite rightly, gambling was severely limited, or even forbidden in many places and circunstances.

The same to me applies to micro transactions. We can blame consumers all we want, but at the end of the day, we must realize the forces at play, and that they are the weak end of the chain, and as such, should be protected.

I think the appaling state of the gaming industry should have been subject to regulation a long time ago. the iRacing model is not acceptable. (holding your bought assets from you). Predatory micro transactions are not acceptable. Games that are "released" in unusable states, and bait you to keep sinking money and time for years in the hope that it will all come good in the next update are not acceptable. "Games" that promise a lot, but end up very short of that in features are basically false avertisement.

So yes, a heavy hand is needed, this "industry" is totally out of control and quite honestly i already equate it to rip offs almost, in terms of the money these devs and hardware mfs ask you to sink in.

Someone brought up pay mods and even setups. Yes i dont think you should pay for those either. Pay mods are just profitting from IP that is not theirs for a product they didn't create. It would be a thing if they paid a license for the car they just changed the name of, and paid a fee for the dev that made the game, but that's not what happens. (feel free to click on my mods tab to see the worthiness of my opinion). Same with setups. So in my view, you either do it for free, or you are beneffiting at someone's expense, and by definition, ripping someone off.

Richard Wilks said:

I think the appaling state of the gaming industry should have been subject to regulation a long time ago. the iRacing model is not acceptable. (holding your bought assets from you).

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What a fun world your world sounds like, I can only imagine what is not regulated.

Most peoples entertainment budget is larger than this, by entertainment budget I mean $ they spend on drinks, movies, dinners, rides etc that they have zero tangible assets at the end of.
Should we regulate that people cant frivolously spend their money on movies, or drinks or theme parks because all they get is entertainment and nothing tangible for their $ at the end?

We could really go a lot further, I mean for the good of the people we really should come up with a big list of things they do and regulate it.

I hear the iracing argument often but its a real insight how some would tackle what they dont like.

metalnwood said:

What a fun world your world sounds like, I can only imagine what is not regulated.

Most peoples entertainment budget is larger than this, by entertainment budget I mean $ they spend on drinks, movies, dinners, rides etc that they have zero tangible assets at the end of.
Should we regulate that people cant frivolously spend their money on movies, or drinks or theme parks because all they get is entertainment and nothing tangible for their $ at the end?

We could really go a lot further, I mean for the good of the people we really should come up with a big list of things they do and regulate it.

I hear the iracing argument often but its a real insight how some would tackle what they dont like.

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It doesn't matter what one's budget is. Laws are not written for the rich, or the wealthy, they are written for ALL.

You are disonestly conflating entertainment with predatory and dubious commercial "relationships", such as gambling, false advertisement, and predatory transactions. I suggest you open a penal code book, or a dictionary, and see the definition of these terms, none of them applying to the examples you gave of movies or entertainment.

Or maybe, just maybe, you agree with the current trend that all should be a "service" that you pay for, basically negating any power the consumer have in any of this, and thus making your own argument invalid?...

No, I quoted specifically what you said about iracing, all within two sentences. I do agree with you on some things.

If I read wrongly the two sentences adjacent each other that said regulation was needed and then iracing cited as an unacceptable model then my bad.

If you do think iracing is an example that should be regulated then I am very much against that. It is a model you don't like but I think it is quite acceptable to pay for content like we do with other sims and then pay for the online service to race with other people. It is the premium online service so you do have to pay. You can get a lesser service thats free somewhere else.

Invite the government in to tell iracing they cant charge that? No thinks.
Tell me where in the penal code iracings model is predatory.

metalnwood said:

No, I quoted specifically what you said about iracing, all within two sentences. I do agree with you on some things.

If I read wrongly the two sentences adjacent each other that said regulation was needed and then iracing cited as an unacceptable model then my bad.

If you do think iracing is an example that should be regulated then I am very much against that. It is a model you don't like but I think it is quite acceptable to pay for content like we do with other sims and then pay for the online service to race with other people. It is the premium online service so you do have to pay. You can get a lesser service thats free somewhere else.

Invite the gonvernment in to tell iracing they cant charge that? No thinks.

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So your problem is with the iRacing model, or rather how i framed it.

I am sorry, but if you pay for something, and then you are prevented use of said something if you dont pay a fee to someone ad eternum, that is a predatory transaction. You CANNOT use your cars and tracks offline in iRacing afaik, so that is inside the definition.

It would be acceptable to not being able to use the live service if you dont pay the subscription, since this entails running costs. But not being able to start the game and do laps offline is where the problem lies, and is totally unnaceptable, and yes, i would invite the "government" to step in against that any day.

Richard Wilks said:

I am sorry, but if you pay for something, and then you are prevented use of said something if you dont pay a fee to someone ad eternum, that is a predatory transaction. You CANNOT use your cars and tracks offline in iRacing afaik, so that is inside the definition.

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It's not a bait and switch though is it? It's completely up font, no hidden costs, its there for all too see. Which definition? Seems like a strawman here, your definition to fit with what you are saying.

I have more sims I have bought that I don't use than ones I do. It's money gone, they got old, I got bored of them, I found something better. I may move on from iracing at some point too and it will join the list of my other unused sims.
I wont feel obliged to keep paying for it when I don't want to, the same way as I dont feel obliged to play my old sims just because I own them and I can.

The value in iracing is for its online, don't pay for it for offline use, thats most peoples advise. Good lucky finding some law that would shut down their model.

metalnwood said:

It's not a bait and switch though is it? It's completely up font, no hidden costs, its there for all too see. Which definition? Seems like a strawman here, your definition to fit with what you are saying.

I have more sims I have bought that I don't use than ones I do. It's money gone, they got old, I got bored of them, I found something better. I may move on from iracing at some point too and it will join the list of my other unused sims.
I wont feel obliged to keep paying for it when I don't want to, the same way as I dont feel obliged to play my old sims just because I own them and I can.

The value in iracing is for its online, don't pay for it for offline use, thats most peoples advise. Good lucky finding some law that would shut down their model.

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It doesn't matter what you have, and not, its not my definition, it is THE definition.

If you dont use something by your own perrogative, that is one thing. If you are PREVENTED use of something you bought if you dont pay a fee that's another. It doesn't matter if its not "hidden", that doesn't make it right, legal, or anything. That's like saying that whoever got ropped into a cult, drug addictiong or gambling addiction is the one to blame, and the criminals that operate in such activities were just "offering a product".

I am sure their model could be shut down rapidly in many countries based on existing laws. It's just that as in anything, the people have to speak up against it, since corporations hold the power, and in this case in particular, iRacing operates in an industry that like i said before, is out of control and needs desperately to be regulated and accounted for, the same way that the gambling industry is.

But i don't hold it against you. Just like in my gambling example, i also dont expect a gambler to lobby for laws AGAINST gambling, even as he destroys his (and usually his family) life in the process, further fueling my point that control over this must come from above.

Richard Wilks said:

It doesn't matter what you have, and not, its not my definition, it is THE definition.

If you dont use something by your own perrogative, that is one thing. If you are PREVENTED use of something you bought if you dont pay a fee that's another. It doesn't matter if its not "hidden", that doesn't make it right, legal, or anything. That's like saying that whoever got ropped into a cult, drug addictiong or gambling addiction is the one to blame, and the criminals that operate in such activities were just "offering a product".

I am sure their model could be shut down rapidly in many countries based on existing laws. It's just that as in anything, the people have to speak up against it, since corporations hold the power, and in this case in particular, iRacing operates in an industry that like i said before, is out of control and needs desperately to be regulated and accounted for, the same way that the gambling industry is.

But i don't hold it against you. Just like in my gambling example, i also dont expect a gambler to lobby for laws AGAINST gambling, even as he destroys his (and usually his family) life in the process, further fueling my point that control over this must come from above.

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Yeah, I am destroying my life, $5 a month every month (+maybe a track every 12 weeks too but it all adds up)

Let's be realistic. If BMW can put subscriptions into cars so that features that used come standard are now paid for on a monthly basis, this is a no brainer for sim racing titles.

I can see a day where the newer games will demand an Internet connection so that players will pay monthly whether you play online or not. You won't own a thing. Revenue streams eventually hit a saturation point where you have sold to everyone it possible to sell to. Then you have to get creative. That is why the subscription software model has become so popular.

Ask Adobe and what they did with Photoshop.

Badwheels said:

Let's be realistic. If BMW can put subscriptions into cars so that features that used come standard are now paid for on a monthly basis, this is a no brainer for sim racing titles.

I can see a day where the newer games will demand an Internet connection so that players will pay monthly whether you play online or not. You won't own a thing. Revenue streams eventually hit a saturation point where you have sold to everyone it possible to sell to. Then you have to get creative. That is why the subscription software model has become so popular.

Ask Adobe and what they did with Photoshop.

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That is why i say that telling people to "vote with their wallets" or that "consumers hold the power" is pointless. The only way you hold power is voting, but not with your wallet, but in anybody that is against that. If no parties in the political sphere are against it, then the game is trully rigged (and it is) so the only way possible is through associative protest or judicial manners.

What is NOT the way is accepting things as normal, and excusing it all as "oh its just 5$ a month"...