2021 Formula One Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

WiisardNic said:

I'm just trying to gauge where you think the decision to unlap/not unlap cars at the end of the safety car period actually affected strategy decisions by the teams.

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Carlos Sainz last lap radio Sainz: "I think it would be unfair to restart this race. We should stay behind the safety car" Adami: "Yup, understood" Sainz: "Giving massive advantage to some people"

Tommeee said:

Carlos Sainz last lap radio Sainz: "I think it would be unfair to restart this race. We should stay behind the safety car" Adami: "Yup, understood" Sainz: "Giving massive advantage to some people"

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So, to be clear, your answer to my YES or NO question above is YES, Mercedes pit at the end of Lap 56 after the cars have been unlapped?

Because the letting some cars unlap, and others not, I'm pretty sure we can all agree what's gone wrong there.

However, you have been talking about how that has hindered the ability for Mercedes to have gone into the pits and put new tyres on. That is the crux of what I'm trying to get through to you: It didn't.

WiisardNic said:

So, to be clear, your answer to my YES or NO question above is YES, Mercedes pit at the end of Lap 56 after the cars have been unlapped?

Because the letting some cars unlap, and others not, I'm pretty sure we can all agree what's gone wrong there.

However, you have been talking about how that has hindered the ability for Mercedes to have gone into the pits and put new tyres on. That is the crux of what I'm trying to get through to you: It didn't.

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your just a wind up merchant and a pretentous little muppet but i don't care if thats what floats your boat and makes you happy
but i really don't need to converse with a muppet like you anymore bye

Tommeee said:

The decision was taken out of there hands by Masi's calls
And you don't need a computer to work out that for only 1 or 2 laps of longevity needed from them new soft tyres are much faster than very worn hard tyres

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Tommeee said:

Yes they would. did you not watch the race did you not hear Hamilton on the radio on at least two occasions asking if he should come in for tyres did you not hear Wolff reply each time they could not because they would lose track position. the decision was taken out of there hands by Masi's call of no overtaking.
How is it you know Mercedes and F1 so well that you know beyond doubt that they would not have pitted if they had been able to
This is not just hard on Hamilton its hard on Max because his championship will always be tainted

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That pretty much covers it.

Tommeee said:

your just a wind up merchant and a pretentous little muppet but i don't care if thats what floats your boat and makes you happy
but i really don't need to converse with a muppet like you anymore bye

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Well.. at least I answer questions directly when put to me after I've presented my case.

mod-edit: profanity removed and so is the user

I thought you were done conversing with me?

Tommeee said:

The decision was taken out of there hands by Masi's calls
And you don't need a computer to work out that for only 1 or 2 laps of longevity needed from them new soft tyres are much faster than very worn hard tyres

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The DECISION was NOT at lap 56. But back at the VSC period. Every option there-after was colored by Mercedes not dictating to RB. If Lewis had pitted during the VSC, Max would have stayed out. We saw that even with much older tires Lewis was able to drive away from Max after Checa held Lewis up. If Mercedes had pitted first during the VSC, then ALL of RB's options would have been nullified. Lewis was faster on older tires vs Max's hard tires. If Max had stayed out, Lewis would have run him down in no time. With DRS & the Merc's speed advantage, Lewis would easily have passed Max in a lap or two after regaining contact or held station for a late run with a lap or two left. Mercedes could have dictated. They chose not to.
STOP WHINING ABOUT THE SAFETY CAR! Mercedes strategy priior to the SC is what prevented Lewis from being able to compete at the end. Masi did not tell Lewis to stay out when the VSC occurred. If Lewis had come in during the VSC his hard tires would have been still sound enough to deal with Max. The fact that Max with fresher hard tires could not keep up with Lewis is proof enough that an equal set of hards would have meant the gap back to Max would have been even greater. IF Lewis had forced RB's hand, Max's tires would have been junk prior to the safety car. There would have been a good chance even more cars would have been between the two and the time needed to move all of those may have saved Lewis.
Here I'll venture into conspiracy theory: Both times Max attempted to pass Lewis, the inside line was left open. Checa held that line against Lewis' first lunge, indeed once Max WAS ahead he too held the inside line to the next corner even though that compromised his corner exit. But for some reason, on both occasions, Lewis left a clear passing opportunity go unchecked. Perhaps he was baiting Max into a dive bomb move and hoped to win after contact would force the stewards to deduct points from Max.(after all, they said they would do that)
The safety car was confusing, but Merc's lack of strategic options was their own fault beginning with the failure to change tires during the VSC. This failure was not Masi's doing, nor Red Bull's, but Mercedes' very own.

Nobody except HAM and Mercedes wanted this season to end under yellow.

Of course it would have been a much better call to have cars unlap themselves right when the SC came out (it was obvious that it would take some time to clean up the crash), instead of only having the cars between HAM and VER to unlap themselves, and although LEC could have maybe made up some ground to avoid NOR passing him in the drivers championship, i think we all can agree that the only battle on the track that was really worth taking care of was between HAM and VER ... so, ya, i'm okay with how that went down.

xnorb said:

Nobody except HAM and Mercedes wanted this season to end under yellow.

Of course it would have been a much better call to have cars unlap themselves right when the SC came out (it was obvious that it would take some time to clean up the crash), instead of only having the cars between HAM and VER to unlap themselves, and although LEC could have maybe made up some ground to avoid NOR passing him in the drivers championship, i think we all can agree that the only battle on the track that was really worth taking care of was between HAM and VER ... so, ya, i'm okay with how that went down.

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So as a spectator a last lap battle made you happy. As a spectator an uneven last lap battle made me unhappy.
Anyways if race direction make decisions to please spectators, then it's no longer a race but a show.

Btw Verstappen and RedBull didn't mind a whole "race" under yellow this year

Max just deserved to win. the british merry christmas press can't stop crying and don't forget about silverstone when Merc was done a favor. Maybe a tire change would have helped Merc with a win. But no, that's not what the Hamilton fans are talking about... what I said before both are disadvantaged but Max much more than LH this season that's the best The FIA that the Hamilton fans are complaining about has ensured that Max was not yet a champion in the summer.


in other words how many points did Merc steal from Max?

Well, looks like FIA and Liberty will give a raise too Massi and everyone involved. Hundreds/thousands of forum threads, millions of posts, because they chose racing over helping someone who didn't dare to risk single time in deciding race.

While everyone are stuck on this "oh they didn't follow rules to the letter ", I'll come to commenting that later. My first issue are white lines, any time they go across them, for me it is penalty. Then after that, any time that any driver has a run on other driver and can keep both on track, it is a penalty for car that doesn't leave space. So for me unfair game (from stewards side) started in Bahrain, continued through almost all the races in the rest of the season.

Now, this burning topic, it was by the rules as we can see they can be overridden. So, the talk changes that it wasn't fair, as in giving advantage to one side despite being per rules. Some could say it wasn't in the spirit of the sport, then someone could even remember same comments when despite being by rules it was complete opposite of spirit of sport with...you guessed it, that spicy thing.

I feel we need to bring the safety car out in this thread - everyone has an opinion (am all for that and I set mine out a few pages back), but I think we should maybe change the dynamic of the discussion and look forward to how things can be improved rather than continually looking in the rear view mirror to try undo a right or a wrong:

Starter for 10 - review of what comms are permissible between Teams & RD, Clarification on the remit of RD, Clarification on Safety Car deployment, Restarts etc, Clarification on 'forced off track' overtaking, etc - this does not necessarily mean a rewrite of the regs or sporting code but a clear (or clearer) definition of them.

Over to you....

Enthilzha said:

No they don't contradict themselves at all. The agreement is surely to end under a green flag wherever possible and whenever rules allow. To say that they are stating that rules can and should be broken in order to finish a race under green is absurd.n

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What rule was broken? Is there a rule that directly PROHIBITS what happened, becuase if there was then yes that rule was broken...but such a rule does NOT exist. The RD has the legal right to deploy the SC as they see fit. The mistake Masi made was delaying the release of the lapped cars so that only SOME were allowed past. If he'd let all lapped cars past earlier then every argument against the result would be null and void. Lewis lost NOT because of Masi, but because Latifi crashed and Max pitted for softs.

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Damage Inc said:

What rule was broken? Is there a rule that directly PROHIBITS what happened, becuase if there was then yes that rule was broken...but such a rule does NOT exist. The RD has the legal right to deploy the SC as they see fit. The mistake Masi made was delaying the release of the lapped cars so that only SOME were allowed past. If he'd let all lapped cars past earlier then every argument against the result would be null and void. Lewis lost NOT because of Masi, but because Latifi crashed and Max pitted for softs.

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5 second penalty for overtaking discussion thread safety car

Enthilzha said:

One rule was clearly broken even according to Masi's own understanding expressed last year (allowing some but not all cars to unlap themselves). Even the Race Stewards seem to acknowledge this if you read their rejection of Mercedes' complaint.

The rule about what should happen in the circumstance we saw is specifically laid out in the regulations: The race should have ended under yellow flag conditions as the safety car should have been out another lap. The Stewards claim that a following regulation (15.3) allows them to essentially ignore any other safety car-related rule they have, even those describing very specific situations such as this. Whether they are technically entitled to do so as they did or not (and they absolutely did rewrite or ignore 48.12 - they even admitted so in their written decision on the complaint), this naturally leads to an impossible situation wherein no rules actually really apply any more and no team can trust or compete to what is written down in the regulations. You simply cannot run any sport or competition by laying out all the regulations but then changing those rules on the spur of the moment, claiming that you are entitled to ignore all those regulations you have created.

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Again that's not a "broken" rule. For a rule to be "broken" it HAS to directly prohibit the action that was taken. "interpretations" of rules can change and after the teams agreed races shold end under green where possible this "interpretation" was likely IMO.

jonelsorel said:

What part of Masi removed just the 5 cars in between Lewis and Max and restarted the race in a jiffy one lap earlier than normal, so that Max can win it on fresh softs (vs old hards) didn't you get, kind sir?

Some coffee, maybe? Or a Red Bull?

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What part of Masi should have let all lapped cars past early enough to negate all the complaints do you not understand? What scuppered Lewis was NOT Masi's decisions, but Latifis crash and Max pitting for Softs.

I mean seriously, over the course of the year Max lost more points and Lewis gained more points from dodgy decisions. Max deserved it this year. A LOT of rules need to be tightened up and changed, many that favoured Lewis this year.

muzikant said:

Max just deserved to win. the british merry christmas press can't stop crying and don't forget about silverstone when Merc was done a favor. Maybe a tire change would have helped Merc with a win. But no, that's not what the Hamilton fans are talking about... what I said before both are disadvantaged but Max much more than LH this season that's the best The FIA that the Hamilton fans are complaining about has ensured that Max was not yet a champion in the summer.


in other words how many points did Merc steal from Max?

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Give it a rest with the insults,getting a little boring.

Enthilzha said:

I think you are being somewhat disingenuous here. That rule has not had it's wording changed at all since Masi made it very clear that he believes that 'Any' does mean 'All' cars in this situation. As I have said before, it is obvious that the intent of the agreement to finish races under green flag conditions is 'wherever possible' and of course would never be at the expense of breaking the rules themselves.

As for whether Masi has favoured Max or Lewis this year (and I have stated on numerous occasions that I don't believe there has been any deliberate bias to either) - that is entirely irrelevant. This situation should be judged entirely on it's own merits.

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Your basic premise that a rule was "broken" is a constant flaw. I'll just say Masi WAS wrong....by not releasing ALL lapped cars past early enough, so result unchanged.

Enthilzha said:

So you're suggesting it's okay to do this then?

As I have said before, in the short-term F1 will probably benefit from the extra publicity etc that they are getting right now. But in the longer term, if they continue to act as they have done in this instance, and, indeed throughout this season, the integrity of the sport will be completely undermined and those who want more 'engineered' drama will go to WWE who do it much better, and the rest will ultimately find a different Formula or sport which they trust has as fair competition as possible.

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name me a sport that hasn't had a major result influenced by a contested decison by an offcial and how many of those sports are still existing and doing fine?