Which sim has the most realistic FFB

[Deleted member 197115]

Not directly Sim Racing Hardware related, but couldn't find better place to post it as we don't have generic sim games subforum.
But as FFB applies to steering wheels which are hardware, I think it would right at home here.
Mod, please feel free to move if that breaks any rules.

So the question,
Which racing sim has the most realistic FFB.
Pick one.

You can also list sim titles you played from best to worst FFB in reply with wheel base in use if possible.
Sometimes favorite does not have the best FFB, please specify that as well if you can.

 

[McGherkin]

It’s like asking ‘what’s the best car?’... everyone’s going to have different tastes. For me, AC just kills it, but it’s heavily dependent on the quality of the car/track.

 

[prceurope]

<MY_2_CENTS>

Having spent the last 8 years trying to optimize FFB for each game as well as making an alternative FFB for games with less than stellar FFB, I can offer the following observations:

-Each of the top tier games does some FFB things better than the others and none of them are "bad". I would consider the top tier to be iRacing, AC, ACC and rFactor 2.
...
</MY_2_CENTS>

Do you know why ACC (in particular a bugbear of mine) outputs tyre scrub & slip to telemetry (I can see it and amplify it in SimHub) but it does not appear to output it to the wheel? At least not my previous T500 and not my current SimuCube 2 Pro. The mid-corner understeer in ACC feels completely dead to me, whereas in AC I can feel the tyres scrubbing laterally across the track surface.

Similarly, in my experience, the only way to detect the rear stepping out (other than visual cues) in ACC is via a subtle output from the wheel. This is in marked contrast to iRacing and rF2 which give much stronger cues and make it easier to catch slides before they become vague, sloppy drifts.

I agree with your general points about FFB - I would only add that one's goals in interpreting FFB should be clear in advance: more fun or more realistic feel that can be translated to real life learning.

 

[Cote Dazur]

If you are having a bad experience with a top tier game, it's more likely that the issue is you and your settings rather than the game.

Amen, if most people complaining or incensing about FFB of particular SIMs would spend as much time trying to adjust the FFB of all the SIM they have on their hard drive than the time they spend trying to justify their bias for or against some title, they would realize how true your statement is.
It is all there for the taking, all modern SIM today can generate very satisfactory FFB, no need to become obsess over any title in particular.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Do you know why ACC (in particular a bugbear of mine) outputs tyre scrub & slip to telemetry (I can see it and amplify it in SimHub) but it does not appear to output it to the wheel? At least not my previous T500 and not my current SimuCube 2 Pro. The mid-corner understeer in ACC feels completely dead to me, whereas in AC I can feel the tyres scrubbing laterally across the track surface.

Similarly, in my experience, the only way to detect the rear stepping out (other than visual cues) in ACC is via a subtle output from the wheel. This is in marked contrast to iRacing and rF2 which give much stronger cues and make it easier to catch slides before they become vague, sloppy drifts.

I agree with your general points about FFB - I would only add that one's goals in interpreting FFB should be clear in advance: more fun or more realistic feel that can be translated to real life learning.

Are yo using any Road Effects, try like 10%, it should add missing information.
And as you are on SC2, try like 15-20% of Static Force Reduction, you might get very pleasantly surprised by the result.

 

[GuitarTech]

I often have the feeling that a lot of users play around with changing parameters and testing different settings, without really knowing what they're doing, for so long till it's completely broken, and worse than it was before they started

 

[RasmusP]

I often have the feeling that a lot of users play around with changing parameters and testing different settings, without really knowing what they're doing, for so long till it's completely broken, and worse than it was before they started

Definitely!
Not having any meaningful explanation of what's what isn't helping though...

People are still thinking the damper ffb channel would be adding a constant damping to the ffb.
Meanwhile AC only sends the standing still rubber effect to it and nothing else.

Also a lot of people have wheel weight and tyre weight in dirt rally in their guides while having the damper channel at 0, which disables both sliders anyway, as far as I know and tested myself.

With raceroom I got so annoyed at the ffb pipeline that I recorded the clipping meter and changed one setting after another for 3 hours and created an ffb flowchart diagram with the results.

A bit of transparency would be much appreciated instead of all this voodoo.

My favorite of all this is that every Logitech user stumbles upon the LUT generator and thinks it's the holy grail when finding out about it.
I've read through the full thread and at some point the creator says he never had a Logitech wheel...
Which explains why I think it felt like crap with my g27.

When I find the time and have the possibility, I'll build a measuring tool that you clamp to the rim to measure the ffb.

 

[GuitarTech]

Definitely!
Not having any meaningful explanation of what's what isn't helping though...

People are still thinking the damper ffb channel would be adding a constant damping to the ffb.
Meanwhile AC only sends the standing still rubber effect to it and nothing else.

Also a lot of people have wheel weight and tyre weight in dirt rally in their guides while having the damper channel at 0, which disables both sliders anyway, as far as I know and tested myself.

With raceroom I got so annoyed at the ffb pipeline that I recorded the clipping meter and changed one setting after another for 3 hours and created an ffb flowchart diagram with the results.

A bit of transparency would be much appreciated instead of all this voodoo.

My favorite of all this is that every Logitech user stumbles upon the LUT generator and thinks it's the holy grail when finding out about it.
I've read through the full thread and at some point the creator says he never had a Logitech wheel...
Which explains why I think it felt like crap with my g27.

When I find the time and have the possibility, I'll build a measuring tool that you clamp to the rim to measure the ffb.

I'm lucky enough to have a Podium DD1, and that, together with their Fanalab software, makes it very easy to set the FFB up, at least for me. I load the default profile for the sim in question, set the in-game FFB parameters according to Fanatec recommended settings, and I'm done.
Or maybe I'm too easily pleased and would rather be driving than playing at being an FFB beta tester

 

[prceurope]

Are yo using any Road Effects, try like 10%, it should add missing information.
And as you are on SC2, try like 15-20% of Static Force Reduction, you might get very pleasantly surprised by the result.

Thanks. Yes, I tried Road FX @10% as Aris recommended and it just felt like canned micro vibrations rather than nuance of road surface. I spent 7-8h on the Granite Devices & Kunos forums, reading and trying everything suggested by Gergo Panker and various folks and watching Aris on YT. Nothing seemed to work at all. I will give SFR @15-20% a try.

For the record, I bought AC on 5 separate occasions: PS4, PC, and 3 x gifted to friends and employees, and I bought ACC as soon as early access was available. When I first tried rF2, it was like all of the little missing details from AC were suddenly there, like I had regained a lost sense. Like I was no longer playing a game but somehow connecting with a real car through some kind of Matrix experience.

Sounds hyperbolic, but it's true. I now have a SC2 Pro, motion rig, transducers and HP Reverb G2. I did an hour in a AMG GT3 this morning in rF2 in the Oulton Park mod and I was so mentally exhausted from the immersion and physical effort that I collapsed onto a sofa for a good 15 mins. I would absolutely love to have that experience in ACC but every time I try it, I experience these dis-immersive moments where I cannot feel the car at all and it feels like I'm piloting a dashboard inside a box on top of a hovercraft with transducers buzzing at the corners.

Part of the issue is that the rest of the production values are so insanely good that it's the momentary absence of the realism that is conspicuous.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

@prceurope, nothing Earth shattering, but you can try these settings as a starting point, or just one from Panschoin in the same thread.
We can move discussion there as well.

 

[prceurope]

@prceurope, nothing Earth shattering, but you can try these settings as a starting point, or just one from Panschoin in the same thread.
We can move discussion there as well.

Sure thing. Just as a note, I think people should be aware that if you use transducers or any kind of motion rig, you are going to perhaps want different things out of FFB at the wheel.

I am looking for the least filtering possible, the lowest latency of input->action, and the best representation of being able to feel the tyres and grip through the wheel, especially across different surfaces with different grip levels, because I have a seat mover to help with weight transfer and a transducer to channel and amplify certain signals. Power steering has definitely changed the game in real-world racing, but it has not introduced latency and vagueness into car control.

In the 24h of Le Mans last year, around the 18 or 19h mark, there was an LMP2 braking into Mulsanne and it ran straight on. Alan McNish pointed out that there is a small bump in one part of the braking zone there, and as soon as you feel it through the wheel you have to modulate the brake pressure to avoid the lock-up as the tyre regains its full grip again.

Most people who race in ACC for sure rely on the ABS and don't even adjust their brake bias, so they hammer the brake pedal and some small minority even trail brake properly. There is no squirling of the car under braking, and very little change in feel when one or two tyres transition from the track onto the kerbs during the braking zone.

rF2 is one of those sims where I can reliably feel the kinds of bumps Alan is referring to and I can feel the lock-up in the FFB. And if I start straight-line braking on the tarmac and the outside tyres then hit the kerbing, the change in the feel at the wheel is immediate and the car begins to react immediately and almost always predictably.

That's why I am so reluctant to spend my precious gaming time fiddling with FFB files, JSONs and tweaking in-game sliders. I am always open to new ideas and new configs and new game updates - as long as there's a community willing to explain the intricacies.

 

[mrexcitement71]

Rfactor 2

 

[St3fan]

I think this thread needs to be revisited after R3E totally rewrites its FFB. After reading the news I am really curious exactly what the devs mean by lack of this and lack of that and how they actually affect the feeling of the "Old FFB".

Old FFB:

1. Steering geometry of the car is ignored, resulting in little differences in FFB between cars. It results in the steering torques being wrong, as they depend only on tyre forces rather than the actual characteristics of the car
2. Lack of longitudinal tyre forces
3. Lack of gyroscopic forces from the tyres
4. The tyre forces from physics are badly translated into FFB torque
5. Tyre contact patch movement is ignored, no dynamic change while driving
6. Too many sliders in the FFB options menu, some of them making promises the FFB could not deliver

New FFB:

1. Steering geometry is used: much more uniqueness between cars, the resulting steering torques have real meaning
2. All tyre forces are taken into account
3. Gyroscopic effects of tyres taken into account
4. 100% Physics-based calculations
5. Tyre contact patch movement is used: much more dynamic feel while driving
6. Only crucial settings to adjust the FFB to the various steering wheels

 

[BrightCandle]

I think this thread needs to be revisited after R3E totally rewrites its FFB. After reading the news I am really curious exactly what the devs mean by lack of this and lack of that and how they actually affect the feeling of the "Old FFB".

No doubt we need to feel it combined with the games physics to assess how driveable and communicative it becomes.

 

[prceurope]

I think this thread needs to be revisited after R3E totally rewrites its FFB. After reading the news I am really curious exactly what the devs mean by lack of this and lack of that and how they actually affect the feeling of the "Old FFB".

Has anyone here tried the new R3E ffb?

 

[Kenny Paton]

Has anyone here tried the new R3E ffb?

It isn't released to the public until next month, although Chris Haye on his YT channel said he planned to review it shortly.

 

[Deleted member 963434]

after doing some tweaks to my ffb on wheel side, and now im certain i will stick to that settings, but also making like 2 month pause from simracing i must update my list, but i not only update it but provide explanation to each sim why it has this place on my list:
1. RRRE - cant tell more - wheel just act like in real car,, it countersteer good when slip, gets lighter and vibrates when underrsteer and most important to me, when you going 200 km/h and turn it left or right and let off it goes back to center immediately and stays there (at least for DD dont know how belt driven wheels perform) its now truly best ffb of all, steering shaft feel is always there
2. iRacing - very natural , similar to RRRE but not goes back to center when let off at high speed but starts oscillating, also not countersteer so good as RRRE and i dont know if its ffb issue or physics issue some cars drive like hoovercrafts, for example nascar truck chevrolet silverado floats left to right its hard to keep it straight but i think its more physicks issue, but still wheel act very natural for me, almost like real car, steering shaft feel is always there
3. beam.NG - big surprise as its not racing sim actually xD but i just downloaded SPA and NORDSCHLEIFE and drove IBISHU 200BX there and its actually like driving my own car in real life.... maybe lacks countersteering force a bit, but i feel it may be most realistic countersteer force on wheel as in real life we countersteer more on g-forces on our bodies than on wheel feel. steering shaft feel is always there. almost ex aequo with iRacing but iRacing got better road feel. Still better physicks than iRacing
4. ACC - very natural but there is some cons like when you have "road ffects" at zero you not feel road completely, like driving hovercrafts, wheel is too light on straights like no ffb is applied then, basically no steering shaft feel, ffb is there only at turns, little not realistic that ffb becomes heavier when turning like some kind of spring force is applied to wheel, but driving is pretty good, physicks kinda sucks compared to RRRE as cars slide to much as for race cars on slick tyres. lack of steering shaft feel
5. AC - similar to above but more harsh effects added, when wheel is let off on straights in some cars it oscillates itself you dont even need to turn it, kinda like driving cars without suspension, lacks of steering shaft feel
6. AMS2 - i dont know if they changed ffb or is it my 2 month pause but ffb now seems for me like too linear, or its physicks issue but most cars just oversteer instead of understeer. maybe its setup issue or physicks issue. actually when cars oversteer its i think easier to save than in iRacing, wheel countersteers much better, but i dont know if its lack of understeer feel on wheel or physicks/setup issue so i put it here. still beter steering shaft feel than AC and ACC
7. pCARS2 - very natural feel but lacks understeer feel. you never can tell cars understering until you see on screen car not turn more xD maybe realistic but still there should be some vibrations on wheel at least. oversteer feel is just spring force trying to put it all way to one side, not like in rest sims above turn it to certain point and stay there. steering shaft feel is still there better than in AC and ACC
8. F1 2020 - wheel just work, spring force recenters it etc, underster feel is not present or feels more like clipping (DD wheel 20 nm in driver and 40% gain in game), oversteer to weak. there is some steering shaft feel
9. forza horizon 4
10. Wreckfest - i think it worked better on my previous t500rs wheel. its just spring force and vibrations on gravel. countersteering is there but much too strong. physicks feel better than iRacing

 

[GuitarTech]

after doing some tweaks to my ffb on wheel side, and now im certain i will stick to that settings, but also making like 2 month pause from simracing i must update my list, but i not only update it but provide explanation to each sim why it has this place on my list:
1. RRRE - cant tell more - wheel just act like in real car,, it countersteer good when slip, gets lighter and vibrates when underrsteer and most important to me, when you going 200 km/h and turn it left or right and let off it goes back to center immediately and stays there (at least for DD dont know how belt driven wheels perform) its now truly best ffb of all, steering shaft feel is always there
2. iRacing - very natural , similar to RRRE but not goes back to center when let off at high speed but starts oscillating, also not countersteer so good as RRRE and i dont know if its ffb issue or physics issue, but still wheel act very natural for me, almost like real car, steering shaft feel is always there
3. beam.NG - big surprise as its not racing sim actually xD but i just downloaded SPA and NORDSCHLEIFE and drove IBISHU 200BX there and its actually like driving my own car in real life.... maybe lacks countersteering force a bit, but i feel it may be most realistic countersteer force on wheel as in real life we countersteer more on g-forces on our bodies than on wheel feel. steering shaft feel is always there. almost ex aequo with iRacing but iRacing got better road feel. Still better physicks than iRacing
4. ACC - very natural but there is some cons like when you have "road ffects" at zero you not feel road completely, like driving hovercrafts, wheel is too light on straights like no ffb is applied then, basically no steering shaft feel, ffb is there only at turns, little not realistic that ffb becomes heavier when turning like some kind of spring force is applied to wheel, but driving is pretty good, physicks kinda sucks compared to RRRE as cars slide to much as for race cars on slick tyres. lack of steering shaft feel
5. AC - similar to above but more harsh effects added, when wheel is let off on straights in some cars it oscillates itself you dont even need to turn it, kinda like driving cars without suspension, lacks of steering shaft feel
6. AMS2 - i dont know if they changed ffb or is it my 2 month pause but ffb now seems for me like too linear, or its physicks issue but most cars just oversteer instead of understeer. maybe its setup issue or physicks issue. actually when cars oversteer its i think easier to save than in iRacing, wheel countersteers much better, but i dont know if its lack of understeer feel on wheel or physicks/setup issue so i put it here. still beter steering shaft feel than AC and ACC
7. pCARS2 - very natural feel but lacks understeer feel. you never can tell cars understering until you see on screen car not turn more xD maybe realistic but still there should be some vibrations on wheel at least. steering shaft feel is still there better than in AC and ACC
8. F1 2020 - wheel just work, spring force recenters it etc, underster feel is not present or feels more like clipping (DD wheel 20 nm in driver and 40% gain in game), oversteer to weak. there is some steering shaft feel
9. Wreckfest - i think it worked better on my previous t500rs wheel. its just spring force and vibrations on gravel. countersteering is there but much too strong.

You havn't mentioned rF2, which is a shame, as it has by far the best FFB of them all. And since when is Wreck fest even a game where the FFB even matters? It's a child's game, not a sim.

 

[Deleted member 963434]

You havn't mentioned rF2, which is a shame, as it has by far the best FFB of them all. And since when is Wreck fest even a game where the FFB even matters? It's a child's game, not a sim.

i may update my list if i ever buy rF2 as its old game and i doubt it will be better than RRRE which is my nr 1 sim now

 

[Deleted member 963434]

You havn't mentioned rF2, which is a shame, as it has by far the best FFB of them all. And since when is Wreck fest even a game where the FFB even matters? It's a child's game, not a sim.

as for wreckfest its still racing game i own thats why i put it there.
due to how my wheel works on it AND games purpose to wreck more than race xD i play it on keyboard but i was curious to check how wheel preforms there
i will shortly update my list and even add forza horizon 4 to it xD as i forgot i had this game as sadly my wheel not suports it now

 

[mrexcitement71]

Well you are missing the no 1 for FFB and feel , rF2
Never tried RRRE but I have tried iracing (irenting) for a year and rF2 has much much better FFB and feel and the cars are more realistic to drive and are so much more fun.