Thoughts and Considerations after the Canadian GP

[Deleted member 113561]

Well, besides thousands of hours in Sim Racing I am out on track with my GTS 991 almost every month. And you?
Bring it up...

You probably are always the guy that is 2 seconds off the pace and are the danger on track.
GTS 991 in Sunday drive mode? Doesn't mean jack ****. It would be different if you drive it in a real racing series where it is about winning, but you don't.

Is this really what happened or is it what Vettel would have liked us to believe what happened? Don't present opinion as a fact.

Just bad, those are the facts, there was no opinion in there *facepalm*.

[...]
The rules are tight because, when they're not, they're abused. There's no moral compass, there's no sportsmanship.

This has become the norm because there is so much money involved, everywhere, not only Formula 1. If it would be allowed, drivers would go 200+kph in the pitlane. All a result of human greed, which partly made us successful but shouldn't be the way forward for our species.

 

[Michel Bélisle]

I think the Moto racing world has found a decent solution: the long lap penalty.
http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2019/03/01/long-lap-penalty-introduced/284714

 

[Fat-Alfie]

Or a lap in a Williams?

 

[falster]

I never said that anyone who disagrees with me is wrong, and in fact I don't even have an "ideal view of F1". What I'm saying is that there are an infinite amount of aspects that make F1 what it is today, and an almost infinite amount of decisions and events that led it to be the way it is. I actually spend a lot of time at gptechnical just trying to learn more and more about how the cars and the teams work, and I feel constantly overwhelmed with the level of detail, technology and knowledge that goes into the sport. And the fact that I feel like I don't even know the tip of the iceberg when it comes to F1 technical aspects, even though I'm trying to learn more every day about it, is the exact reason why I don't have an opinion about "What F1 should be".

But then at every discussion about Formula One, there's always that guy who barely knows the number of wheels the cars have, yet he seems to know the exact answer to what should be done to improve the sport, and then he starts babbling with ideas so stupid it's not even funny that would basically take F1 back to the 1970's, because "F1 1970 exciting, F1 now boring" and so on and so on.
If that's not a perfect example of the Dunning Kruger effect, I don't know what is.

And don't even get me started on the "I don't watch F1 anymore because X and Y reasons" comments from people that for some reason feel obligated to comment on every discussion about Formula One that they don't like Formula One.

then im afraid you don't know what it is.

without wanting to side track...

its about context you see, which as we know is the most important aspect.

Its a practical application, relative to the subjects level of skill/competence in a specific area, ie, a driver who thinks he is much better than he is, genuinely believes it, but isn't
or a bank robber who believes that lemon juice would hide his face against the cctv, because he thought he knew the chemical compound would have that effect. but he misunderstood the mechanics

its nothing to do with how, because someone has an opinion of something, or a point of view etc, someone can label them as wrong or defined as being part of the effect because they aren't a race driver, or a pilot etc

that's not how it works. its a cognitive bias, not necessarily anything to do with someones opinion on a subject they have no part in, but a genuine belief you are the greatest that ever lived at what you do whatever that may be, when your skill/competence level says otherwise.

you've basically incorrectly conflated the two things.

Peoples opinions differ to yours, and you want to slap a psychology label on it rather than say, "yep fair one, I don't agree with you but you're entitled to it"

 

[Salvatore Sirignano]

I know we all have our opinions, and some of us who prefer historic F1 are accused of wearing rose tinted glasses, but can anyone here really argue that these past few seasons have been better than say 1997 for example?

There you had a tyre war, several winners, a title fight right to the end, beautiful cars, circuits with gravel traps, plentiful genuine overtaking, V10 and V8 engines, Arrows, Prost and Jordan almost getting wins, unreliability.. From weekend to weekend you had no idea who would win. Most importantly of all, it was exciting!

 

[falster]

I know we all have our opinions, and some of us who prefer historic F1 are accused of wearing rose tinted glasses, but can anyone here really argue that these past few seasons have been better than say 1997 for example?

you both proved and disproved your argument with that first line I think

fundamentally a lot of it is based in subjective opinion I think.

There also might be a few here that weren't really able to enjoy the 1997 season, certainly perhaps not with enough recall to offer a comparison between "then and now"

 

[Ami_M3]

I haven't said that he involuntarily closed Hamilton. I just said that he slid, which is what happened. Whether it was on purpose or not, we don't know and I haven't said anything about it.
If you cannot understand written text it's not my problem

Oh, I understand written text fine, even though English is not my native language, don't worry.
It's your interpretation that he slid after re-joining the track and almost hit a wall. That's what I have problem with. Some would say he had pretty good control and was far from hitting the wall, and others would even go as far as to say that he closed the door being fully aware what he was doing. Who's right? Doesn't matter, but opinions are not facts, so don't present them as such - that's all I was saying. Cheers

 

[John-Eric Saxén]

There you had a tyre war, several winners, a title fight right to the end, beautiful cars, circuits with gravel traps, plentiful genuine overtaking, V10 and V8 engines, Arrows, Prost and Jordan almost getting wins, unreliability.. From weekend to weekend you had no idea who would win. Most importantly of all, it was exciting!

Maybe you need to download and re-watch the 1997 season. Those wider 97 cars with huge downforce weren't easy to overtake with at all, even at tracks like A1 Ring there were very few successful overtakes.

 

[falster]

Edit

-SNIP-
got bored of it.

 

[Ruy Horta]

You cannot have your cake and eat it.

We want racing excitement, but it has to be safe.
We want the pinnacle of technology, but we hate the teams that outspend the rest
We want great drivers, yet we cultivate prima donnas

F1 has become a toxic combination like so many big money sports.
There is too much politics, too much money and too much stardom for the few.
This will not get better.

So you either swallow what they dish up as the “F1” product or look elsewhere for racing excitement. I couldn’t care less for F1. The most F1 fun I have is in gaming, or the occasional tech insight and training. The last driver I really enjoyed following was Nigel Mansell.

 

[larre90]

Hey, has anyone of you guys driven here a real spec 19 F1 Car?

No?

 

[falster]

Hey, has anyone of you guys driven here a real spec 19 F1 Car?

No?

And?

ive never raped anyone but I have an opinion on it

ive also never been shot, but I do know that it is extremely painful, damaging and highly likely to be fatal in a lot of circumstances

do people need to have 1 to 1 real life first person experience to hold an opinion on something now?

whether you agree or disagree is another thing entirely, but arguing that someones point is moot, because they have no personal experience of a "thing" is not achieving much in the scheme of it all and isn't quite the mic drop I think you thought it was.

 

[gambolmaker]

To start with, the penalty should have been handed after the race, not while it was still running. We could go on and on discussing if the penalty was right or wrong. I believe we all have different opinions on the subject and it would be pointless to discuss this. I think, however, that everyone can agree that by handing the penalty to Vettel during the race, they killed the race itself. The German driver lost focus, because you can be a professional and have your mind in the game as much as you want, but it is inevitable that knowing something unsettling like this, it gets to the back of your brain and it stays there until you cool it off.

Sorry, but I would expect a driver who is being given a five second penalty to do everything he can to be six seconds ahead by the end of the race. If he "looses focus" as you write, he shouldn't be a racing driver.
Even if he doesn't manage to do it, he should still try. Because like you said, the penalty won't be rescinded, so he should just man up, take it for what it is and stick it to them.

 

[Diogo Goetz Brand]

then im afraid you don't know what it is.

without wanting to side track...

its about context you see, which as we know is the most important aspect.

Its a practical application, relative to the subjects level of skill/competence in a specific area, ie, a driver who thinks he is much better than he is, genuinely believes it, but isn't
or a bank robber who believes that lemon juice would hide his face against the cctv, because he thought he knew the chemical compound would have that effect. but he misunderstood the mechanics

its nothing to do with how, because someone has an opinion of something, or a point of view etc, someone can label them as wrong or defined as being part of the effect because they aren't a race driver, or a pilot etc

that's not how it works. its a cognitive bias, not necessarily anything to do with someones opinion on a subject they have no part in, but a genuine belief you are the greatest that ever lived at what you do whatever that may be, when your skill/competence level says otherwise.

you've basically incorrectly conflated the two things.

Peoples opinions differ to yours, and you want to slap a psychology label on it rather than say, "yep fair one, I don't agree with you but you're entitled to it"

Dunning kruger effect is when someone who knows jackshit about a subject feel like they know a lot more than they actually do.
When you have someone who barely knows how a Formula One car works claiming they know exactly what should be done to make the sport more exciting, this is exactly what's happening.
The person responsible for trying to improve the sport is no less than Ross Brown, for Pete's sake. I know that in hindsight there are plenty of regulations that tried to achieve a more exciting sport and completely backfired, but I'd rather leave this task to one of the most competent men in the sport than saying I know what needs to be done.

 

[falster]

Dunning kruger effect is when someone who knows jackshit about a subject feel like they know a lot more than they actually do.
When you have someone who barely knows how a Formula One car works claiming they know exactly what should be done to make the sport more exciting, this is exactly what's happening.
The person responsible for trying to improve the sport is no less than Ross Brown, for Pete's sake. I know that in hindsight there are plenty of regulations that tried to achieve a more exciting sport and completely backfired, but I'd rather leave this task to one of the most competent men in the sport than saying I know what needs to be done.

its not, it really isn't and you're oversimplifying it to state this fact

David Dunning himself wrote about his observations:

" that people with substantial, measurable deficits in their knowledge or expertise lack the ability to recognize those deficits and, therefore, despite potentially making error after error, tend to think they are performing competently when they are not: "In short, those who are incompetent, for lack of a better term, should have little insight into their incompetence—an assertion that has come to be known as the Dunning–Kruger effect". In 2014, Dunning and Helzer described how the Dunning–Kruger effect "suggests that poor performers are not in a position to recognize the shortcomings in their performance"

-note "incompetent" =not having or showing the necessary skills to do something successfully.

very clearly different to your interpretation


however......
ill agree to disagree to be honest, as its far too derailing and im done with talking to you about it, weve both had our says and clearly nothing is going to change how we feel.

 

[Diogo Goetz Brand]

Sorry, but I would expect a driver who is being given a five second penalty to do everything he can to be six seconds ahead by the end of the race. If he "looses focus" as you write, he shouldn't be a racing driver.
Even if he doesn't manage to do it, he should still try. Because like you said, the penalty won't be rescinded, so he should just man up, take it for what it is and stick it to them.

Exactly. I tried to understand what would be the benefit of giving the penalty after the race, but failed miserably. If anything it would cause even more outrage. Then everyone would be saying "So Vettel won the race, but they decided to steal his victory after the race was already over?" or "What if he was able to create the 5 seconds gap and didn't do it because he didn't know he would get a penalty?".

 

[callumjtc]

Old people complain a lot. I don't like the 60's, maybe the 90's to 2000's, yes! I'll give it to old people like how they call out others who know a bit less about racing history and call them kids. It's human nature, you love your generation. You will not survive in the past, and you won't understand the future. F1 is healthy, not for the old, but for the people who actually enjoys it right now.

I'll share a little, about my son. He's 7, he's always in awe when I watch F1... He is very happy to see Lewis win. I'm not a fan of him, but my son is. It's like seeing my uncle cheering for Shumacher way back, and mind you I hate Shumi. There are people who enjoy the current situation. Let them have it. There are people who hates the situation. Let them have it too.

Bottom line is, F1 is only ending for those who don't like it.

It's nice to see someone not ringing the Doomsday bell for F1, even after an appalling decision and a clean sweep for one team. I am sick and tired of single team dominance, but that doean't mean the sport is ending or the midfield battle isn't intense!

 

[callumjtc]

I swear this thread was designed to kick up personal arguments

 

[Patrik Marek]

That's why I really loved WEC, more so then F1, but that's also now going into poo poo , after LMP1 is basically finished

didn't know that if they admit they were wrong, they still can't take away the decission, that's really stupid

and totally agree on the point that saying the penatly after race or maybe in last few laps, would have not ruined the race the same way it did

 

[InsaneOzzie]

Why the Fek are we even discussing this?
F1 is not about the racing anymore, it's about money, it's about dominance, it's about putting on a SHOW.
This should be blatantly obvious by the budgets the top teams have, & the money the drivers are paid.
Even Lewis himself has stated on numerous occasions that he hoped the crowd enjoyed the SHOW.
Aussie Supercars do the same, it's about the money, everything else is just part of the SHOW.