The Elephant in the room

[Cote Dazur]

I want to share a concern that I have about AMS2. It does not seem to be discussed, but when comparing how many player actually play the game, I am very worried this game will get any traction ever. It is no just less than other SIM, it is very very little, particularly as it is new.

I would love to hear what Reiza think of the abysmally small amount of user.

How many use a game does not reflect on how good it is, AMS2 is good, but not having user, hence no money coming in has to be some how worry some for Reiza and by consequence to existing user.

By all the coverage here in RD and all the superlative in this thread, you could be tempted to think that this is the next big thing for SIM racer. Not so much, why is their not more players?

 

[wolftree]

No doubt, some people appreciate what AMS2 has to offer, I am one of them, the challenge for Reiza is that those people are very few. Most SIM driver/racer prefer driving something else.
Hopefully their is a solution, as with very low attendance/usage, the future cannot be good.
Is AMS2 the SIM you use the most?

Once AMS2 is mature enough and includes customisable offline championships and a proper multiplayer system, the players will come. ACC too was a joke among the community for a year since the initial release, no one played it etc. Then they fixed the worst issues and it blew up in popularity, becoming overhyped if anything.

I split my time between AMS2 (500+ hours), R3E (400+ hours), and occasionally AC. R3E is great for what it does, everything is highly polished and you get what you expect, but the driving feel at the limit is not as exciting as AMS2, the tyres do not have the same feeling of connection to the road, and controlled slides are hard to pull off. AC does cool stuff with mods that you can't get from other sims, but all the cars feel on rails to me and the driving feel is similar from car to car.

 

[Cote Dazur]

ACC too was a joke among the community for a year since the initial release

After 6 month, ACC had 1,800 + daily players, more than most SIM ever did, not sure what the joke is about.
I can see you care for AMS2, so do I, hence this thread.
Fact is, player base for AMS2 at this point and ever before is abysmally small.
offline championships and a proper multiplayer system may add attendance, the same was said before about gt3 and spa, but it did not made a dent.
In April, we will have had the privilege to drive in AMS2 for a year, if the present trend of usage continue, it might be just be you and me left.

 

[UMC 22]

Let's not miss the forest for the trees. There are many enjoyable cars to drive in AMS2 already...

That's true, but I don't think the main issue people have in choosing to use AMS 2 right now is that all the cars feel rubbish. The main issue is that the overall package is lacking. Yes it gets better with each patch as more features are added, and that's all very well and good. But it doesn't change the fact that, as of right now, there are still features lacking that people want and/or need in order to enjoy the sim fully. A simulator isn't just about how the cars feel, it's also about what you can do with them and how you go about doing it.

While I haven't tried offline racing with the latest patch, I don't agree that the AI is all that fun to race against right now. (Unless they've made staggering progress with a single patch.) So for me that's out as other sims do it better. Racing online has it's issues and lacks certain features, so that is also less appealing to me than in other sims. That leaves hotlapping, which I just find boring 99% of the time.

In other words, while I have confidence that AMS 2 will eventually be a great sim which I use often and enjoy, at the present moment in time it just isn't. So it sits dormant on my PC other than the odd dabble after each patch to see what's changed. I'm sure I'm not the only one who is playing the waiting game, and that goes some way to explaining the current player count.

 

[2stains]

AMS2 the SIM you use the most

ATM yes, I've gotten over 500 hours with 320 in the beta.

 

[wolftree]

While I haven't tried offline racing with the latest patch, I don't agree that the AI is all that fun to race against right now. (Unless they've made staggering progress with a single patch.) So for me that's out as other sims do it better.

I don't know, depends what you are expecting to see. While R3E used to be my reference for good AI and I still enjoy it, it has gotten worse in recent updates. Too many tracks where the AI is completely out of control, driving wide repeatedly in the same corner lap after lap without even trying the brake, then wildly rejoining and crashing into other cars. Or the classic R3E AI move of driving at 100% speed through grass and gravel while overtaking the player. And other sims are even worse.

 

[UMC 22]

I don't know, depends what you are expecting to see.

AI that isn't a mindless procession around the track, which AMS 2's currently is. AI that doesn't act like a blind robot when the player comes near, which AMS 2's currently does.

I don't think AMS 2 AI is the worst AI in sim racing by any means, but it also isn't any fun to race against for me personally. R3E AI has it's faults just like any other sim, but it at least fights both the player and each other, which for me personally makes it much more fun and interesting.

 

[2stains]

While I haven't tried offline racing with the latest patch

AI that isn't a mindless procession around the track, which AMS 2's currently is. AI that doesn't act like a blind robot when the player comes near, which AMS 2's currently does.

I'll try again
For someone who hasn't played AMS 2 in its "current" form as you just said, you sure like to comment on how it plays in its "current" form

 

[UMC 22]

For someone who hasn't played AMS 2 in its "current" form as you just said, you sure like to comment on how it plays in its "current" form

How about reading my whole posts and taking them in context, rather than nitpicking single sentences you can twist and attack out of context?

Also, if you can point me to where in the latest patch notes it mentions something along the lines of, "AI improved to be less robot-like and actually race both the player and each other, so that races are more than a procession after lap one", then I'll concede the point. No? Then I stand by my current opinion of AMS 2 AI, which clearly hasn't undergone a massive transformation in what was a hotfix, not even a full patch.

 

[2stains]

How about reading my whole posts and taking them in context, rather than nitpicking single sentences you can twist and attack out of context?

Also, if you can point me to where in the latest patch notes it mentions something along the lines of, "AI improved to be less robot-like and actually race both the player and each other, so that races are more than a procession after lap one", then I'll concede the point. No? Then I stand by my current opinion of AMS 2 AI, which clearly hasn't undergone a massive transformation in what was a hotfix, not even a full patch.

You don't have access to the Reiza 51 forum? You haven't seen the constant stream of updates notes with Ai many many lines of Ai improvemens? or better still have a bloody go at the newest version and see for yourself instead of just talking without actually running it to try for yourself!

Mod Edit: Personal attacks removed.

 

[2stains]

and just for a bit of fun, here are some notes from a previous patch
AI

• Further reduced AI lateral jerkiness/weaving/abruptness
• 
  
• Bumped AI aggression scalars, reduced AI extra awareness with human scalars to better exploit latest AI code developments & better race-ability
• Adjusted AI performance on wet (both on slicks and wet tires),

And many many more lines of notes that i'm sure your privy to but just choose to ignore

Edit: I also apologies, i thought you were part of the beta, but just checked and your not so i'm sorry for some of what i said .

Here you go, just some of the notes that you can see yourself with a simple click

AI

• Added preliminary new logic to improve AI overtaking lapped cars
• Added new tolerance parameter for AI to not concede position to player until a given amount of the car length is alongside (prevents issue with AI cars appearing to be "scared" out of the way when approached from behind by player)
• Slightly raised AI CoG height multiplier & adjusted AI damper rates to avoid cars bouncing at hard compression
• AI calibration pass for all cars that received tyre physics and / or aero updates
• Reduced range of lateral movement away from ideal line & rate of movement when taking urgent action
• Created new AI paths for Nurburgring Nordschleife & 24h layouts (improved & more consistent performance)
• Added new overtaking logic - AI cars now evaluate speed of cars further ahead to dodge slow traffic more efficiently
• Fixed bug causing AI simulated times to fluctuate widely
• fixed issue where AIs would brake without reason on pit entry or exit
• Further general AI performance calibration for throttle & brake application, tire rolling resistance & drive-train losses (to better match player straight line speed), launch speed (slow starts still remain an issue with Group A & Procar)
• Increased AI speed on wet tracks while running slicks
• Slightly increased AI aggression scalars per vehicle
• Further reduced AI jerkiness in lateral movement
• Reduced AI brake distance offsets
• Fine tuned AI brake performance
• Update AI fuel load logic for practice sessions (now uses same as quali - further customization of fuel levels per car will follow in subsequent builds)
• Slightly reduced AI quali performance & improved practice performance (all cars)
• Further improvements to AI lateral weaving/abruptness of movement
• Added new improvements to AI behavior when it predicts it´s going to run off the road (should reduce some causes of abrupt lateral movement / loss of control)
• Further general A performance calibration

and these aren't even the latest round of notes, those you will just have to wait for.

 

[Kenny Paton]

Gentlemen, dispense with the personal attacks and get back on topic.

 

[UMC 22]

You don't have access to the Reiza 51 forum? You haven't seen the constant stream of updates notes with Ai many many lines of Ai improvemens? or better still have a bloody go at the newest version and see for yourself instead of just talking without actually running it to try for yourself!

You really, really need to get over yourself and stop attacking anyone and everyone who dares to criticise Reiza and/or AMS 2. I mean seriously, what's with this personal crusade?

It's not even warranted in my case. I have pointed out on many occasions that I am a big fan of Reiza, that I want AMS 2 to succeed, and that I have every confidence that it will in the long term. However, that does not make me some kind of blind sheep that is going to just keep "baa"-ing in unison with the flock. If I see something which is, in my opinion, broken or not up to a good standard, then I'm going to speak up about it. It doesn't matter if it's AMS 2, AC, ACC or R3E, I hold no bias here and criticise the flaws in those sims just as readily.

No amount of angry, bile-filled replies from you is going to prevent me or anyone else from exercising our right to post our views, so calm the hell down. If you want to refute my views with calm, reasoned arguments to the contrary then please, go right ahead. I enjoy a good discussion. But continue down the route of personal attacks and you're going to find yourself with problems posting here at all.

 

[Des Pearce]

Personally I find it the most difficult to feel what's happening near the limits of any of the big name titles, in this respect it's far behind its older brother which I much prefer driving.

It looks great, runs great, the ffb feels good but I spin far more than in any other sim. The AI is a bit dumb compared to RRE, rFactor 2 (if you give them a chance to practice), ACC (bit overly aggressive but more "human") and iRacing, they've got better, at some points in the development, but they're not compelling to race against IMHO.

I don't see the need for defending a game, these opinions are subjective and personal, many of us own most, or all of the main sims and I suspect if you look at each persons Steam stats you'll get an idea of which they prefer. After all it's only a game!

 

[UMC 22]

Here you go, just some of the notes that you can see yourself with a simple click

*snip*

Thanks, but as a follower of the sim I've already read most of those notes as and when they were released by Reiza. As I said above, the only patch I have not fully played in singleplayer is the latest hotfix, so the only AI-related things which have changed since my last AI races are:

• Further improvements to AI lateral weaving/abruptness of movement
• Added new improvements to AI behaviour when it predicts it´s going to run off the road (should reduce some causes of abrupt lateral movement / loss of control)
• Further general A performance callibration

Useful fixes, but not a fundamental change that will affect my overall opinion of AMS 2's current AI. Just to remind you, I did also say that AMS 2 by no means has the worst AI in sim racing, but that other sims do it better at the moment so those are the ones I play offline.

As you say, I do not have beta access so if there really are a bunch of new AI tweaks heading our way then I genuinely look forward to trying them out.

 

[Cote Dazur]

Being mostly an offline player, spending most of my seat time racing AI in the major SIM and enjoying myself, I would not say AMS2 is particularly bad, to me it is average and not one of my favorite at this time.
I consider all the other AI in SIM, at this point in time and development, average.
They are different but all have issues, the only way I can enjoy them is to accept them as they are and play with them. I still prefer them all to racing other people online which bring a whole different can of worms to the party.
In general AI is much better in all titles than a few years back, but improvements still are needed and will be welcome.
AMS2 AI is not, in my opinion, what is holding the title back but it is not helping either in gaining any traction.

 

[Kenny Paton]

I wonder if points made much earlier in the thread are near the mark. People with PCARS2 might not feel the need to invest in what to many (especially those who are not familiar with Reiza's record) appears to be a similar game, or are put off by the Madness engine.
Hopefully with the progress already made and with much more to come player numbers will increase.

 

[Renato Simioni]

Few thoughts to the discussion you may find of value

1- AMS2 sales are well within our target at this point, refund ratios are also within average and slightly below our other titles and Steam reviews above it; that suggests people are buying the game and liking it enough to keep it;

2- The play times currently are relatively short, suggesting the game is lacking in features to keep players engaged for longer windows of time - this will affect the number of simultaneous players which seems to be the only gauge people are using here. To a degree this reflects the state of development of certain game modes - it´s effectively a quick race game ATM, but that´s already changing.

3- The game still has less than one year of development beyond its original EA release, and less than one year to gather its player base - other popular sims have had 2 to 10 years to evolve and gather its community, and they were doing so at a time there wasn´t as many mature options to choose from as there is now. Time and continuous development will do its thing here;

4- Over a quarter of our player base sticks with AMS2 Beta for its quicker rate of development vs AMS2 Release.

It would be ill advised to try guess too much into the future but in terms of simultaneous players I believe another year or so should bring us closer to the range of other popular sims (with the exception of AC which is a product of a very unique set of qualities and circunstances and on a league of its own in terms of popularity).

Thanks, but as a follower of the sim I've already read most of those notes as and when they were released by Reiza. As I said above, the only patch I have not fully played in singleplayer is the latest hotfix, so the only AI-related things which have changed since my last AI races are:

• Further improvements to AI lateral weaving/abruptness of movement
• Added new improvements to AI behaviour when it predicts it´s going to run off the road (should reduce some causes of abrupt lateral movement / loss of control)
• Further general A performance callibration

Useful fixes, but not a fundamental change that will affect my overall opinion of AMS 2's current AI. Just to remind you, I did also say that AMS 2 by no means has the worst AI in sim racing, but that other sims do it better at the moment so those are the ones I play offline.

As you say, I do not have beta access so if there really are a bunch of new AI tweaks heading our way then I genuinely look forward to trying them out.

I´m curious whether you´ve tried the latest updates, as I don´t think "train" AI behavior and poor awareness relative to player to be the significant issues which they once were - plenty of things to improve still and today´s update hopefully move things a step further, just checking if we may not be sticking with past impressions here

 

[Cote Dazur]

Time and continuous development will do its thing here;

We are all hoping it will, but it might be dependent on what else happens during that time within the sim market offering and in which direction the development goes.
Brushing off the situation as a non situation may or may not be the best strategy, hard to fix an issue if you do not realize their is an issue.
Thank you for the inside view, glad for you that you are not worried and all the best for 2021.

 

[UMC 22]

I´m curious whether you´ve tried the latest updates...

No offense, but I have said twice now:

... the only patch I have not fully played in singleplayer is the latest hotfix...

I fully agree that the AI has come a long way since the first EA release, and even since the official "full" release. At no point have I said that I hate AMS 2's AI, that it's total rubbish, that it's been static since release, or that it's the worst in sim racing... though some people seem to be making out that I have.

The one and only point I've tried to make regarding the AI is that for me personally, AMS 2 is lacking in comparison to some of the other sims I play, so if I want to race offline I pick those sims over AMS 2. That's it. That's my only point. Unfortunately some take that opinion as a personal attack on you, Reiza and the sim as a whole.

As for the current player count, the point I made earlier is pretty much exactly what you just said above... that the foundation is fine by the overall sim lacks the features people want/need to fully enjoy the sim. That isn't even criticism really, since it's a statement of fact. And it's not a complaint either since I'm well aware of the sim being a long-term development project.

Once again I point out that I am a supporter of both Reiza and AMS 2. I'm just not going to pretend it's all great when sometimes it isn't.

 

[Renato Simioni]

I have no problems with your comments fwiw just commenting on those two specific issues you listed which for me don´t exist to a significant degree anymore. If you can be bothered enough to put up a video demonstrating what you mean I´ll be happy to look into it.

We are all hoping it will, but it might be dependent on what else happens during that time within the sim market offering and in which direction the development goes.
Brushing off the situation as a non situation may or may not be the best strategy, hard to fix an issue if you do not realize their is an issue.
Thank you for the inside view, glad for you that you are not worried and all the best for 2021.

It is effectively a "non-situation" tho - offline players make up the bulk of our player base and for them however many players are also in the game is irrelevant; on our side, if we have enough players buying the game sticking with it so we can do our business we´ll be fine, and we´re well within our target so far - if expectations were for things to be any different I´d say the issue is with the expectations.

I understand the anxiety is a bit more justified if one is primarily a Multiplayer user where you need a large active user base to get your enjoyment out of the game, for now the reality is that there are some excellent multiplayer options out there offering more than we are atm - all we can do is continue to follow our plan to bring more water to the horses, and hopefully enough of them will come around to drinking it