Tactile Immersion - Upgrade to 6 Transducers

[Ceolmor]

This thread is for anyone who is thinking of installing 6 transducers to their sim rig, either from scratch or as an upgrade.

My existing setup was two Buttkickers Advances bolted to a 80/20 rig, one attached under the pedals and one under the seat, both powered by a single Behringer iNuke 1000DSP. For anyone interested in my journey to that point, see the thread Getting into Tactile Immersion - Help Please?

Recently, an opportunity arose to purchase 2x Buttkicker Advances; 1x Buttkicker LFE; 1x Clark TST239; 2x Behringer iNuke 3000DSP; & an assortment of cables.

But before starting, firstly my thanks to @Mr Latte, without whose expertise and willingness to share that expertise none of this would be possible, and thanks to @signman for the opportunity, and to whom I wish all the best in his future ventures.

The plan is:

• Two Buttkicker Advances one either side of the seat, in 'Chassis' mode;
• Two Buttkicker Advances, one to the left and one to the right underneath the pedals, in 'Chassis' mode;
• One Buttkicker LFE central under the seat in 'Dual Role' mode.
• One TST239 attached somewhere for the seat, to work with the LFE in 'Dual Role.'

So, initially I spent quite a bit of time working out how I would attach the transducers and how to wire everything up.

My existing setup had the seat, pedals and Buttkickers isolated from the 80/20 rig using two H shaped 5mm mild steel plates. I wanted to continue this arrangement for (hopefully) best results.

For the seat arrangement I sourced two new 5mm aluminium plates for the BK Advances either side of the seat.

I bolted together the central H plate, two new outer aluminium plates and two seat brackets to create a complete platform to which to attach the Buttkickers and seat.

BKA either side, LFE central underneath.

The seat arrangement bolted to the rig. The 4 isolators results in the seat/Buttkicker section and 80/20 rig being separated from one another. Note a homemade rubber washers at the top of the bolt holding the plate to the 80/20 profile to help reduce the vibration travelling to the rig. On initial testing this is all working quite well.

The pedal area has been more problematic.

The H shape plate under the pedals have been cut in half to create two T shape plates onto which to bolt each BK Advance. This is to reduce the signal from the left travelling to the right, and vice versa.

Initially, I bolted the pedal section to the 80/20 profile via 4 isolators, similar to the photo below.

This should again isolate the pedal section from the 80/20 rig. However, on initial testing I was getting very little vibration in the pedal area, and if I whacked up the gain I would get excessive piston pang.

My theory is that the brackets which hold the Heusinkveld Pro pedal aluminium baseplate are not rigid enough to hold the cantilevered steel plates and Buttkickers below, sitting purely on a rather spongy isolator.

This results in too much movement and flex when the Buttkickers vibrate, reducing significantly the amount of vibration that actually makes its way into the pedals and the base plate.

Therefore, I have changed it so that for now I have bolted the steel plates directly bolted to the 80/20 rig, with no isolation.

Initial testing shows that this gives better vibration. Although there is a bit more bleed of the vibration into the rig, it is not too bad, and certainly not as bad as the piston pang I was getting before. But this is a temporary solution and I will have to revisit this area later.

Currently, the whole setup looks like this.

The TST239 is on the back burner (and remains in its box) until I get the above sorted and work out how best to attach the last transducer. So okay, yes, at the moment it is an upgrade to 5 transducers!

Future episodes include, "Initial Testing" and "Adding the 6th transducer."

Any comments, suggestions or questions will be gratefully received.

 

[Michal Burisin]

@Ceomar
Draft for two plates Clutch and Break - Throttle for HE Ultimate
View attachment 249789 View attachment 249788

Do you think that it would have noticeable benefit when the plates are mounted on the same bearing construction underneath like this? Would be nice if somebody could test this out

Great thread, I'm looking forward to results

@Ceolmor Have you managed to solve noise / vibration issues on you rig completely? How is it with this new powerful tactile?

 

[Ceolmor]

@Ceomar
Draft for two plates Clutch and Break - Throttle for HE Ultimate
View attachment 249789 View attachment 249788

Plates look neat. I'd need convincing before I start cutting my expensive HE Baseplate in half. There will surely still be some seepage of vibration from left to right via the isolators and bolts holding the plates to the 80/20 profiles below, and via the heelplate you are planning.

Have you managed to solve noise / vibration issues on you rig completely? How is it with this new powerful tactile?

In a way, I have resolved my noise/vibration issues by changing my expectations and better understanding how this all works. It was naive of me to expect it to all run quietly. There will always be some noise and it follows that the more transducers you have the noisier it will be.

However, the really unacceptable levels of noise come from pushing the transducers so hard that they rattle and piston pang, which in turn can cause the whole rig to shake. With more transducers, you should be able to run them at more acceptable levels and avoid this. Bit like comparing an 60 bhp engine with a 350 bhp engine, both accelerating hard.

I've also learned that by using the iNuke DSP software, I can reduce those Hz frequencies that cause the transducers to be excessively noisy. Spent some time last night running through different frequencies with the LFE (using an online tone generator http://www.szynalski.com/tone-generator/ . I can control the LFE by identifying those frequencies that cause too much noise and then reducing the gain for that frequency in the Parametric EQ until the vibration can still be felt, but is not too noisy.

Beware though, I've not done much in game testing of all this yet, so I might be talking . I don't need phone apps or expensive equipment to test my noise levels. When my wife starts shouting at me, its too loud! I'll keep you posted.

 

[Michal Burisin]

Plates look neat. I'd need convincing before I start cutting my expensive HE Baseplate in half. There will surely still be some seepage of vibration from left to right via the isolators and bolts holding the plates to the 80/20 profiles below, and via the heelplate you are planning.



In a way, I have resolved my noise/vibration issues by changing my expectations and better understanding how this all works. It was naive of me to expect it to all run quietly. There will always be some noise and it follows that the more transducers you have the noisier it will be.

However, the really unacceptable levels of noise come from pushing the transducers so hard that they rattle and piston pang, which in turn can cause the whole rig to shake. With more transducers, you should be able to run them at more acceptable levels and avoid this. Bit like comparing an 60 bhp engine with a 350 bhp engine, both accelerating hard.

I've also learned that by using the iNuke DSP software, I can reduce those Hz frequencies that cause the transducers to be excessively noisy. Spent some time last night running through different frequencies with the LFE (using an online tone generator http://www.szynalski.com/tone-generator/ . I can control the LFE by identifying those frequencies that cause too much noise and then reducing the gain for that frequency in the Parametric EQ until the vibration can still be felt, but is not too noisy.

Beware though, I've not done much in game testing of all this yet, so I might be talking . I don't need phone apps or expensive equipment to test my noise levels. When my wife starts shouting at me, its too loud! I'll keep you posted.

Yes, for me it's quite the same. I now started to recognize when piston pang occurs and what it does, and without it, I would say it is very quiet, it generates mostly vibrations which I'm managing to deal with efficiently (at least on my current setup 2xBK Advance + 2xTST). I hope it will get even more quiet when I seperate all the effects (engine + shifts etc.) from wheels - thus limiting possible unexpected piston pang when too many effects blend together. Also as @Magiashkii wrote in his thread, the LFEs (he got 4) are actually more quiet then NLM V3, so I'm optimistic. Also I'm building my pedal mount etc. bombproof out of steel (I have easily accessible & cheap metal materials available nearby) so I hope there will be nothing to rattle when it's welded together However on the other hand it might kill my plans to go motion, as it might be too heavy Just pedal support will weigh 20+kg. I will see, I have no comparison of steel vs aluminium rigs regarding tactile / vibration etc. As I see it now, I wouldn't probably have gone rSeat N1 way with the knowledge I have now and I could have probably saved like 1000 EUR already and ton of work and be more ready for motion with lighter rig, but right now it works great for vibration management, so I'm happy. I would be very interested in comparison of steel rig vs alu rig.

I got tired of waiting and ordered 2 more iNukes + one more Concert. If I like the Concerts, I will order 2 more to hopefully be done with tactile units Still might want additional TST for wheel in the future I'm really starting to get worried if I haven't gone crazy This tactile project started for me in my mind as 5x BK Mini project and it turned into this monstrosity Already could have gone some form of motion solution with these expenses But I like it so far, I hope it will be solution for many years to come until they invent VR interface directly into our brains .

Also my pedal steel construction is ready to be picked up next week so I hope I will start making progress again in coming weeks. I'm really interested how loud 2x additional units will be on my rig

Keep up great work!

 

[Balroque]

Do you think that it would have noticeable benefit when the plates are mounted on the same bearing construction underneath like this? Would be nice if somebody could test this out

This is a million dollar question, unless somebody will try we won't know. Maybe Mr. Latte could at least theoretically answer.
Im not sure if it is worth all the hassle, what I found just to design the plate yesterday

+ separate left and right channel and get better and more clear immerse feeling from both sides
- result unclear, it could feel awkward
- as you don't want to have break and throttle pedal too far from each other, is not so simple to accommodate rubber mounts under plate at the middle. The one on my picture could use max 40 mm diameter. (It would be even harder to have 3 separate plates)
- Heel plate was an option before, but now you would have 4 bolts (nuts) in the middle of the plate, which you would have to either sunk or cover with heal plate)
- heal plate could be one piece, sitting over both plates on rubber feeds or split in two as well
- more cuts = more dirt and dust going everywhere beneath and between and hard to keep clean and tidy
- the idea of this solution requires separate pedals.

@Ceomar
- The original HE plate is 300x340mm, this custom one is 480x400. It would be quite a challenge to adjust the original one and you won't be able to use HE mounting brackets

P.S. if this will work, we can apply it to seat as well - cut seat into two parts and have one buttkicker for left butt and one for right butt - LOL

 

[Ceolmor]

P.S. if this will work, we can apply it to seat as well - cut seat into two parts and have one buttkicker for left butt and one for right butt - LOL

Yes, but currently my left butt is connected to my right butt, so there will still be some crossover.

 

[Balroque]

Yes, but currently my left butt is connected to my right butt, so there will still be some crossover.

You can try to push between them Inuke to eliminate it

 

[Michal Burisin]

My pedal construction will look like this (view from side and then view from top):

I will probably try to this this separation like this:

Green would be 0,5 cm thick metal plates with gap between them. Orange are buttkickers.

Blue are 4 isolators in corners between main construction below and isolated pedals construction on top of that.

As I will have the pedals hanging from the top in inverted position I don't have to worry about individual pedals. Given this construction, I think it might add some decent separation for heels feeling, as the vibration from BK on one side will arrive to the other side with some delay and possibly much weaker as well.

 

[Mr Latte]

This is a million dollar question, unless somebody will try we won't know. Maybe Mr. Latte could at least theoretically answer.
Im not sure if it is worth all the hassle, what I found just to design the plate yesterday

+ separate left and right channel and get better and more clear immerse feeling from both sides
- result unclear, it could feel awkward
- as you don't want to have break and throttle pedal too far from each other, is not so simple to accommodate rubber mounts under plate at the middle. The one on my picture could use max 40 mm diameter. (It would be even harder to have 3 separate plates)
- Heel plate was an option before, but now you would have 4 bolts (nuts) in the middle of the plate, which you would have to either sunk or cover with heal plate)
- heal plate could be one piece, sitting over both plates on rubber feeds or split in two as well
- more cuts = more dirt and dust going everywhere beneath and between and hard to keep clean and tidy
- the idea of this solution requires separate pedals.

@Ceomar
- The original HE plate is 300x340mm, this custom one is 480x400. It would be quite a challenge to adjust the original one and you won't be able to use HE mounting brackets

P.S. if this will work, we can apply it to seat as well - cut seat into two parts and have one buttkicker for left butt and one for right butt - LOL

Using a typical isolator can help but it will not prevent vibrations from a large tactile unit transferring into a 8020 cross-section between L/R sides of a cockpit or indeed a small pedal region. Improved low-end bass and more wattage over smaller units are going to ensure this happens. So why should we assume the same level or indeed a basic level of isolation sufficient?

A 8020 rig can have left pedal frame come from the left side and the right pedal frame connect from the right of the the rig. They do not require a horizontal bridge, if secure enough? For users with 3 pedals planned then we can have a horizontal bridge between the L/R sides but this can be done and it not have direct contact with the L/R tactiles primary installation 8020 frame. We can also help to isolate a bridge section if desired and use the frame from it for the brake pedal support.

Take note of what I said in seeking to use our toes and heels to connect to the foot for best results.
My own build will take this further to extend contact of each pedal to my legs lower calves region as well. Here is very sensitive to tactile and this with the tactile to the feet helps to increase the immersion. It's very striking from early tests actually how much here with under the knees and forearms add to just the typical pedal/seat tactile. I need to delve more into this and will be.

The front channels are more important perhaps for stereo perception (front wheels) and the feet/leg regions can in many cases bring clearer stereo representation than some peoples seat installations.

I already mentioned using glasses of water as a simple indicator. You guys mock or can avoid the advice given of using some vibration apps on a phone/tablet but their purpose is not for noise or as a sound level meter, it is simply to gain a visual indicator on the level of vibration that is active. Two devices let you do more comparisons on different sections to help determine the reduction in vibration that is happening.

Someone doing such tests comparing, firstly no isolation to then trying two or three possible isolation solutions with such apps can achieve useful insight from them. It doesn't have to be scientifically accurate but a visual reference for this is indeed handy. You can do such tests without having to sit and then try to feel differences in the build each time.

My Ideas On Pedals:
For pedals, the best results I obtained several months ago from on/off early tests were by using the pedal stems/plates connected to individual sections. (Thrustmaster pedals separated/tested). I can't afford high-end pedals at this time like what you guys have, while also buying components for the build.

These sections the pedals are mounted to are isolated from each other. The tactile energy went directly into each pedal, no it does not feel weird as we still will have some degree of leakage going into the pedal plate and depending on the isolation used some may still transfer from one side to the other even with isolation used. This depends on the build.

The goal was to have specific detailed tactile for the L/R directly into each foot. In my case having the TST directly mounted to these L/R sections for the pedals ensured this. The BK (from my dual role) then was connected to base plate sections. Again as (L/R) for the heel/foot not a single piece of metal.

The energy from the large BK unit will penetrate into the pedal stem even through isolation it may have or uses, which is fine and wanted. Here it then mixes the strongest lowest energy with that of the TST (in my case solution). The base foot/plate for the pedals can have a small connecting region (or bridge) to enable L/R transfer if desired. I do not recommend two tactile units on a single bit of metal/wood that can freely mix each unit yet this is exactly what the vast majority of builds have. If we seek too, we can have a section cut that limits the join between the two sides. This can be a small section only (not the whole plate). In doing this we bring vibration control by reducing the channel crosstalk possible yet still permit mono bumps to operate.

SSW Effects Example:
Lets also look more closely at this L/R factor or the possibility of it feeling weird if isolated from each other.

What some of you are not taking into account is that bumps can operate in stereo via L/R effects. Yet they also have a separate effect for Mono bumps. So when the telemetry calls for a mono bump it will go to both channels. If the telemetry outputs activity from a left bump to the right we cant do much about that but what we want to try and avoid is losing the sensation of bump placement for events/times that dictate we should feel direct load/activity on one side.

Mr Latte would also like to kindly remind you that we can place the mono bump to a 3rd unit (cen/sub). Have it only active on this or as I have experimented with. Have it go to both L/R and the 3rd unit. When we decide what channels to use such on, then we can also use a different waveform for the central unit if desired. For example, an LFE on a seat and it have a stronger or lower 5Hz response to help give the sensation more of the car bottoming or when the cars central divide is passed. An example of this is a car over a wide/large kerb (Left - Center - Right) wheels. Here with a good rig, you will feel the individual wheels but then also the mono effect on all 3 units.

Others, however, are welcome to study this and find a better solution or share their own findings.

Simulation is not real life scenario:
The brain clearly can detect left/right bumps, we should want this from an immersion perspective, in a simulation. Just as, if in the near future we may have actual individual felt wheel-slip or other effects for per wheel activity. For that to work well then such WILL feel better on a rig that uses improved channel separation and one a user can detect such, no question about it.

There is no way, in my view that someone bolting on tactile direct to 8020 with no channel separation or vibration control is going to get the best immersion when stereo effects or effects for individual wheels are being ruined. Some may not care like I have said, not everyone will fuss about such but clearly looking at how people have installed tactile on many forums over the years lessons can be learned and things improved. For me the perspective is, if I buy into high end tactile, I want to then ensure I get a higher level of immersion from it, not just more bang or thump.

A good tactile rig is one that can deliver detailed variation between the channels but also over the multiple effects being used. Some restriction factors apply here (engine can drown out some other effects if mixed on same channels). As can having too many effects in some cases (frequencies used for various effects are important here) So I would say its very easy to go out and buy more advanced tactile and the user still has a rather limited definition from it all. This both in regards individual effect detection and working stereo left/right or indeed front/back.

But hey, such will have loads of shaking and power happening and some that may be just all they seek. Its down to the user what you want to achieve or may be happy with.

 

[Mr Latte]

@Ceomar
Draft for two plates Clutch and Break - Throttle for HE Ultimate
View attachment 249789 View attachment 249788

Pointless having a split in the plate if the 8020 sections below connects both over what is a narrow distance. Even with basic isolators supporting the plate from the 8020 below the distance is so small, much energy will still leak from one side to the other.


Pointers I would give or attempt if I had 8020

Build individual supports for L/R to extend from the L/R main frame.
!] I [!

Have any bridge section originate from a different place. Not the 8020 section where the primary tactile installation is. This can be at a lower level (further from the pedal tactile to reduce vibration it has) or positioned further away but still maintain ridigity in rig frame.

Create a central support from two spaced apart horizontal bridges for a vertical riser to then support the brake pedal section. For all pedals we want to isolate the pedal stem supports they are on from the base plates we use or they make contact with. This will help maintain the energy in them, even though much will still leak beyond. Have individual foot base plates cut to shape/size desired? With these, we can help determine what size or amount of metal connects the 3 pedal supports. Giving much more control over the vibrations distribution to each pedal.

Consider for pedals wide enough 8020 sections for the pedal block and use 4-6 isolators below it
Yet also have other isolation materials used, experiment or do comparisons. Do not just rely on basic isolators especially with larger units.

Its possible and without major issue, the unknown element is not so much coming up with a working 8020 support construction but what can be done with isolators, materials to bring improved isolation for each pedal support and pedal base plate. Multiple or combined layers guys but a solution that works in a small space yet has enough stability with stresses placed when depressing pedals.

Somone will crack it if they are interested in doing either on their own or working together seeking solutions to improve the contained energy and isolate sections better.

 

[nobby91010]

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[nobby91010]

just upgraded from the gametrix seat to at the moment single diy transducer i thought another 1 would do me but 6!!!Blimy