Its not a big step up. My advise would be to keep what you have and go DD or buy a clubsport at a discount. I have owned both and the TSPC was a great wheel but i am not sure that extra power it has is worth it.
T300 to TS-PC, is it really a (big) step up?
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Nice that it's there already!
Feeling the teeth is normal. I barely felt them when driving though. Only really felt then when the wheel isn't plugged in.
However that "resistance" feels pretty awesome imo when driving straight.
What sim and what settings are you using? I basically simply ran everything at default, gain in all sims around 65%.
I don't know how the belt in the t300 looks like. Maybe it's a V-belt instead of teeth and thrustmaster noticed some slipping and went for a teethed belt.
Well he already sold his t300, discussed all sides of the topic and now already has the ts-pc at home
Yeah, couldn't wait and it was only about 14 miles away
Those teeth are normal you say? That's a relief! I think the same belt is used as I watched a lot of video's from both wheels, but the TS-PC seems shorter and therefore more tight and also; wider.
I should have said; indeed it is only when unloaded in the settings or so; not in the games; then I don't feel it.
The resistance is really good yes, straights feel very real now!
In the control panel, I have set the gain (or what is it, the top bar) at 90% now.
I was surprised TM set it default to 75% also for this wheel??
I thought that was only for the T300 for the cooling problem!
Now this wheel too......
So I put it up, but man, didn't really have to!
Now in the games, I have to turn it back in there.
For me; having a stronger wheel but than having to turn all FFB to low in order to not get clipping; seems a bit weird to me.........
I mean, the T300 was set to 75% and now I would have to set this wheel even (way?) lower to overcome clipping; there would be no use in having a stronger wheel, right?
The games I tried (and played for the last few weeks) were ACC, RRE, PC2 and F1 2021 for when I feel arcade-style
Now I just ran all of them just a few laps to see what it does, turned FFB lower and tried a bit; I can't really tell as to where I set them from memory as I didn't pay attention. (was fiddling with all kinds of other stuff too like centering and so on)
Later this week I will find some more time and will report how I have to set them all.
For now; I think this step was bigger than when I went from the G27 to the T300.
In detail; just about the same, maybe just a bit more, but in strength; even bigger of a step.
So I AM very happy with this one; it is a pretty good improvement!
Those teeth are normal you say? That's a relief! I think the same belt is used as I watched a lot of video's from both wheels, but the TS-PC seems shorter and therefore more tight and also; wider.
I should have said; indeed it is only when unloaded in the settings or so; not in the games; then I don't feel it.
The resistance is really good yes, straights feel very real now!
In the control panel, I have set the gain (or what is it, the top bar) at 90% now.
I was surprised TM set it default to 75% also for this wheel??
I thought that was only for the T300 for the cooling problem!
Now this wheel too......
So I put it up, but man, didn't really have to!
Now in the games, I have to turn it back in there.
For me; having a stronger wheel but than having to turn all FFB to low in order to not get clipping; seems a bit weird to me.........
I mean, the T300 was set to 75% and now I would have to set this wheel even (way?) lower to overcome clipping; there would be no use in having a stronger wheel, right?
The games I tried (and played for the last few weeks) were ACC, RRE, PC2 and F1 2021 for when I feel arcade-style
Now I just ran all of them just a few laps to see what it does, turned FFB lower and tried a bit; I can't really tell as to where I set them from memory as I didn't pay attention. (was fiddling with all kinds of other stuff too like centering and so on)
Later this week I will find some more time and will report how I have to set them all.
For now; I think this step was bigger than when I went from the G27 to the T300.
In detail; just about the same, maybe just a bit more, but in strength; even bigger of a step.
So I AM very happy with this one; it is a pretty good improvement!
Sounds perfectly fine!
Indeed! I really like the resistance against "initial movement", but when you really start to turn, the resistance won't become much stronger. Apart from the ffb ofc, but not the "basic resistance" that's always there.
I didn't have any issues doing quick corrections with the TS-PC but driving precisely in almost straight lines like on a tight asphalt road in Dirt Rally 2.0 was a lot better than with my current CSW 2.5...
I don't know why Thrustmaster puts it to 75%. Might be because they don't want people to hurt their hands when not setting up anything properly...
The cooling of the TS-PC is pretty good from what I know so put it to 100%, no issues
I think you don't really know yet what clipping means exactly:
Basically, the driver has an input range from 0-100%. 100% input are linked to 100% ffb level from the game.
But then you can turn it down in the game and in the wheel driver and then different things start to happen.
Clipping simply means that either the game limits the ffb level at 100% or that the wheel driver limits the input at 100% (but afaik all games have a limit at 100%. Some just don't show the ffb level).
I'll give you some example numbers because it gets a lot clearer then:
AC gain 75%, TM strength 100%:
Driving through a turn, not hitting kerbs:
- AC output 60%, no clipping
-> 60% into wheel driver
-> 100% strength
-> 60% wheelbase strength to your hands
Driving over a sausage kerb:
- AC output 95%, no clipping
-> 95% into wheel driver
-> 100% strength
-> 95% wheelbase strength into your hands
Hitting a tree:
- AC output 150%, clipping after 100%
-> 100% into wheel driver
-> 100% strength
-> 100% wheelbase strength into your hands
AC gain 100%, TM strength 75%:
Driving through a turn, not hitting kerbs:
- AC output 80%, no clipping
-> 80% into wheel driver
-> 75% strength
-> 60% wheelbase strength to your hands
=> So cornering actually feels identical!!
Driving over a sausage kerb:
- AC output 127%, clipping
-> 100% into wheel driver
-> 75% strength
-> 75% wheelbase strength into your hands
Hitting a tree:
- AC output 199%, clipping
-> 100% into wheel driver
-> 100% strength
-> 75% wheelbase strength into your hands
Maybe this explains it? Basically you can adjust the "Dynamic" of your ffb with game gain and wheel driver strength.
Low game gain + high driver strength = more dynamic.
Peaks won't clip as early and the wheel will output peaks with full force.
High game gain + low driver strength = less dynamic.
Peaks will clip early and the wheel won't go beyond a certain maximum strength.
Normally, you want maximum dynamic, but you need enough strength in the wheelbase to still have fun when turning down the ffb gain.
But sometimes this can be simply too much. If you barely feel anything when driving straight and a sausage kerb almost breaks your arms: too much dynamic!
And if Eau Rouge feels the same as a slow hair pin and hitting a tree only gives a slight bump, then you have NOT enough dynamic (G27 looking at you).
I personally try to set all sims up so that sausage kerbs already get limited by the clipping meter.
But normal cornering should NEVER clip.
For AC and rF2, that means around 60%/0.65. And I'm using 70-75% strength in my CSW 2.5.
The CSW is 8Nm, the TS-PC around 5Nm.
So my 70% are still a bit stronger than your TS-PC but if you want the same strength that I'm using, set your driver to 100% and the gain to 67%.
Yeah I totally agree with that! G27 to T300 gives you a smoother ffb, a tight straight line feel and quite a bit more strength to feel everything a bit more.
With the TS-PC, things start to feel like a real car though
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I didn't ever think it would happen in my lifetime but I've had to correct RasmusP - the TS PC is 7.2NM if I remember correctly and with myself being a 49 year old Thrustmaster fanboy it matters.
Thanks for the reply's guys!
7,2 Nm? Wow!
The explanation is a very good read, thank you for that!
I had to read it about four times, but that has all to do with me
So, the way I get it; in control panel from TM, just put it on 100% there where TM did 75% and just turn it down in game, right?
I am about to try some more tonight (if I don't get disturbed) and look for the clipping, making more out of the explanation when I'm actually working on it and not reading it at work
7,2 Nm? Wow!
The explanation is a very good read, thank you for that!
I had to read it about four times, but that has all to do with me
So, the way I get it; in control panel from TM, just put it on 100% there where TM did 75% and just turn it down in game, right?
I am about to try some more tonight (if I don't get disturbed) and look for the clipping, making more out of the explanation when I'm actually working on it and not reading it at work
Kyuubeey
@Simberia
I'd advise to set driver to 100% and tweak gain in-game.
A typical powersteered car is about 4-6Nm or so, of which a few Nm is friction. Powersteered GT racecar maybe 7-10Nm, with higher peaks due to less aggressive filtering and so on.
Belt wheels (and basically even DDs that aren't Simucube) will respond very slowly compared to IRL and oscillate easily, so you shouldn't probably max it out all the time. Probably you won't need any damping for this one, but if it oscillates a lot then you could think about it.
A typical powersteered car is about 4-6Nm or so, of which a few Nm is friction. Powersteered GT racecar maybe 7-10Nm, with higher peaks due to less aggressive filtering and so on.
Belt wheels (and basically even DDs that aren't Simucube) will respond very slowly compared to IRL and oscillate easily, so you shouldn't probably max it out all the time. Probably you won't need any damping for this one, but if it oscillates a lot then you could think about it.
LOLI didn't ever think it would happen in my lifetime but I've had to correct RasmusP - the TS PC is 7.2NM if I remember correctly and with myself being a 49 year old Thrustmaster fanboy it matters.
You're right and wrong at the same time
My 5 Nm are too low. But it's 6.2, not 7.2
Which makes my "example" of myself liking to use 60% gain with 75% base strength with my CSW 2.5:
0.75*8 Nm = 6 Nm
0.6*0.75*8 Nm = 3,6 Nm "nominal torque" (I have no idea what to call this number that's good for relative ffb level comparisons?!)
TS-PC:
1.00*6.2 Nm = 6.2 Nm
X * 1.00*6.2Nm = 3.6 Nm ----> X = 3.6 Nm / (1.00*6.2 Nm) = 0.58
So 58% ffb gain when using 100% in the wheel driver should result in the same ffb I'm liking.
I have to say when I had the TS-PC, it was basically perfectly on point, strength wise, when lowering the gain until I got no clipping while driving cleanly and only get big sausage kerbs, crashes etc clipped off.
The CSW 2.5 gives me a bit of headroom for some special situations, but as I said I mostly tone it down to TS-PC levels anyway...
6.2 NmThanks for the reply's guys!
7,2 Nm? Wow!
The explanation is a very good read, thank you for that!
I had to read it about four times, but that has all to do with me
So, the way I get it; in control panel from TM, just put it on 100% there where TM did 75% and just turn it down in game, right?
I am about to try some more tonight (if I don't get disturbed) and look for the clipping, making more out of the explanation when I'm actually working on it and not reading it at work
To be fair, I had to read it 3x before posting too to check if I didn't write something wrong
Yes, 100% in the control panel, boost=off (it's a new function and apparently quite weird).
Then lower the gain in the sims/games to your liking and that's it
Damn it, the glory and respect ripped away from me at the very last moment - felt like I had one foot over the finishing line and then you popped up and shot the other foot off!
Anyhoo - now we have the correct figures (no thanks to me) I will also try 100% in the driver myself and lower the in-game gain. I've been using default 75% driver and 95% in-game and adjusting FFB lower per car if need be - wouldn't the two former settings be the same end result if done the other way round i.e. 95% in driver and 75% in-game. Or am I missing something fundemental as to how this works...
Anyhoo - now we have the correct figures (no thanks to me) I will also try 100% in the driver myself and lower the in-game gain. I've been using default 75% driver and 95% in-game and adjusting FFB lower per car if need be - wouldn't the two former settings be the same end result if done the other way round i.e. 95% in driver and 75% in-game. Or am I missing something fundemental as to how this works...
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Damn it, the glory and respect ripped away from me at the very last moment - felt like I had one foot over the finishing line and then you popped up and shot the other foot off!
Sorry hahaI googled for the "correct" torque and there isn't a lot of official info but 6-6.2 Nm is what most people who dug for it came down to. And it makes sense in comparison to the 8 Nm of my CSW 2.5 and the 5 Nm of the CSl DD I had for a week.
you're right about forces that are below the clipping limit of the sim/game.
Compare the values I wrote down above:
The issue with this is that my numbers are only examples. However I did calculate that 60% ffb at 75% gain will become 80% ffb at 100% gain.
In reality, cornering will already clip if it's a wild turn!
Driving through Eau Rouge in a GT3 car in AC will clip massively with 100% gain: (global gain in the menu set to 100%, gain for the McLaren 650S GT3 set to 100% too).
The crucial thing with Eau Rouge is that you really don't want any clipping to have all the tyre grip information.
You need to feel the compression, the lightness over the crest etc.
Now we could debate if you really need ALL the little peaks to be there at full force or only the slightly averaged line.
Imo the smoother line would be fine.
Most folks can probably teach themselves otherwise,
but by default expect mean and median sensations to be close;
cllpping only high peaks throws off median.
Smoothing a clipped signal would seem likely to confuse,
so smoothing should applied only to unclipped telemetry.
Struggling to understand why anyone would want more torque. I would love to scratch the DD itch, and I know I would not go back.
I think the best investment for SIM racing is pedals.
I think the best investment for SIM racing is pedals.
Kyuubeey
@Simberia
If you're going to drive anything like an actual model of a formula or prototype car in a professional setting, you really do need very high torque just to be able to drive them properly. Otherwise it won't straighten out quickly enough allegedly. That's what I've been told at least. I don't wanna say anything specific because I don't remember but it's well north of 10Nm. For reference GT3 cars I've seen data from are under 10Nm sustained.
However the real reason to go DD is response time and rotation speed. Not all of them are made equal, nothing from Fanakek is anywhere close to a Simucube according to people who know but I bet it's still adequate for most people. If you're going to be drifting seriously then you kind of need a DD or you can't closely replicate real techniques in realistic cars.
