Simvibe : Comparing EM Vs CM Installations

[Mr Latte]

Okay so I still get quite a few PM from time to time on various forums, one point that keeps coming up and I seen recently here at RD again is if considering Simvibe what type of configuration should be considered:

I will put a great deal of effort into this thread to make it one of the most informative and give a true representation. I promote others to share their own findings even if they differ from my own given here.


Extension Mode (EM) or Chassis Mode (CM)?
Not going to go into a full description of these here and assume most will have basic or general idea of the differences and what applies.

I have however tried/experimented with EM & CM installations in various configs with different tactile. Below I will share some of my own findings and advice. It's upto you as a community to share and get involved or if its any benefit/interest but having this here will let me link others to address some of the questions I often get and need to repeatedly answer.

What I would say is that both CM/EM can be very enjoyable but can also be rather different experiences too.

If comparing:
EM: Having tactile potentially felt in more body locations but with mono effects only
CM Stereo: Having Stereo in one place, either (pedals or seat)
CM Surround: Full 4 way tactile (2 for pedals / 2 for seat)

*NOTE
Tactile energy may possibly flow through the cockpit from say a seat into pedal regions dependent on various factors. These are most often affected by the rig design and materials, installation placement/method and isolation materials if any are used. Additionally, these factors can also be very much related to the power/performance of the models/units being used.


Mono / Stereo / Surround Tactile
I shared a while back that some people may not be over impressed by "Stereo Effects" in Simvibe. These coming only from Chassis Mode configuration using the "Suspension Based" effects on select titles. These effects are "Suspension Bumps / Suspension Textures / Suspension Bump Surges". I believe a factor for some users is that they maybe focus more on the general overall feel, rather than importance of having directional placed and felt tactile sensations.



I certainly did not witness any other effects giving much in the way of directional positioning with the advanced monitoring hardware/software solutions I have used over several months and during real-time analysis. Over 700 hours was spent going over every Simvibe effect and option possible with testing done within Assetto Corsa. So from the perspective of using Stereo/Surround installations to my understanding, all Simvibe effects except the main suspension or per/wheel based effects operate generally in a non-directional fashion.

In laymans terms "Stereo Effects" will let you feel a wheel/kerb response on the appropriate left/right-hand side. A left kerb can then be felt on the left of the seat/pedals assuming the user has installed either a stereo 2 channel or implemented 2 units in both pedals/seat using the full 4 Channel CM configuration.


Considering Possibilities


While entry into tactile immersion can be possible for under $100 let's go a bit deeper, for instance, what if someone was looking to get into tactile to a fairly serious performance level. Starting with 2 units or more but prepared to spend a decent amount in the pursuit of good performance.

How do they best spend their budget? What is the best, how could configurations vary with a similar budget? Is it possible that a 2 unit system, can be possibly even better than using 4 units from an immersion/performance basis? What are the varying costs with options?

I will use "Buttkicker Models" in this example, including my own preferred choice of amplifier, prices do not include cables/wire etc. This is being done as general guidelines on Simvibe possibilities, based on many questions I often receive.


Buttkicker Gamer 2 Package

An easy route into tactile immersion is to buy multiple Buttkicker Gamer 2 packages @ $150 each and quite a few in the community maybe have this combination. Currently all Buttkicker amplifiers operate in mono, so for Simvibe perspective only able to power a single channel/shaker. Buttkicker Packages make things simple in that they come including the shaker/amplifier and cables as an all-in-one package.

See Here

The Gamer model has a special clamp mechanism attached to the body. This can make installing rather simple as well. The community does have reports that this can help enhance the strength felt from the unit. It is unknown if this is merely a signal strength induced factor. One that is potentially caused by physical mechanical amplifier application in the leverage of the clamp arm. Which potentially is helping to produce increased felt output. Or is it partly, to do with claimed differences between some of the products (see below)?


Buttkicker Simulation Kit


Buttkicker also offers a similar package with this model.
This uses the same amplifier (2 ohm) with wired remote and the same internal unit as the Gamer series but with the main difference to the "Gamer Package" having the clamp mechanism. The Simulation Kit does however, come with rubber isolators included.

See Here

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Going Solo / General Amplifier & Tactile Options
While not difficult to learn what is needed it is possible to get stereo or multichannel amplifier options if buying the tactile separate with alternative amplifiers available. Doing this the quality power, features, and specs can also vary or improve over the BK packages.

Confusing / Want More?
If you read this and want to see a thread based on recommending popular/different amps and tactile for various budgets. Or to cover cables, connectors, leads typically required then please say or PM and I will consider doing one. I do not currently see such a thread here at RD forums. Some new products have become available this previous year that could be interesting to cover.


Best Alternatives On A Budget?
For now I will highlight an affordable and excellent option to consider for those wanting to enter into tactile immersion, get good results at a relatively low price.





At the moment the ADX tactile unit is probably the best budget option available. It is not limited in its frequency response range (important) like some budget models are. These ADX can produce an enjoyable experience with detailed tactile sensations at various frequencies. This model replaces a very popular model in the "Aura Pro" and is a bit cheaper to the Buttkicker options.



For a budget amplifier search for the SMSL SA-98E Stereo Amplifier 2x 160 Watts (See Amazon) is affordable and suitable for powering 2 transducer units in a really small compact form. Typically costing @ $100 / £95 or less. Take note as various colours and also 120 watt version are available.

With these options, it is possible to come in below the Buttkicker Gamer 2 price point which can also at times be hard to find available. This little combo is well represented tested/products within the community. It will certainly give a performance for sim racing, much better than some of the most basic and cheaper alternatives available.

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Market Leading Brand
It seems, however, many Simvibe users have gone for Buttkicker models over the years or have used variations of the "entry level based design". These can offer decent tactile performance with quite a strong output.

They come marketed in the form of several models....
The BK Gamer 2, the Mini Concert and also the Mini LFE. Simxperience, sell a modified model with added acoustic foam known as the Mini LFE/SE model promoted as a "re-design".

The "Concert" series was originally aimed towards musical/instrument applications and comes in the smallest/largest model sizes. These by the specifications are meant to have an emphasised performance usage between 40Hz-80Hz suitable for drummers and guitarists alike.

Quote from user guide.
"For musician monitoring, stage and studio use, we recommend using the ButtKicker® Concert which has more power in the 40 – 80 Hz range than the ButtKicker® LFE."

The "LFE" series are aimed more towards the very lowest frequency response usage, known as sub-harmonics. These were originally intended for home cinema users.

Quote from user guide.
"For home theater use, we recommend using the ButtKicker LFE which features extended low frequency response for special effects."


Unconfirmed?
I personally have never seen detailed reviews/comparison and full analysis to determine if indeed the LFE/Concert/Gamer series have true noticeable or measurable performance differences to each other. As it could be in part, possible marketing for targeting different sectors of consumers with only minimal differences if any to be found in real world usage.

Please by all means if you can share further on this enlighten me. I have often wondered if this is part of the reason why users within the community find a variation between the Gamer 2 (using the clamp) and standard Mini series models, mmmmm?

For comparisons we have to consider the main apparent difference seems to be that "Concert" models and like the "Gamer" series operate at 2ohms while the "LFE" series operate at the more accepted 4ohm resistance. This would mean each requires very different wattages when operating too.

*Finding 2ohm capable/supported amplifiers beyond packages that Buttkicker themselves offer are less common. Take note if buying shakers separately.


*Update / Late 2017
I have had some reports from owners that indeed say the BK-LFE appears to have an improved energy at the lowest frequencies (below 20Hz) and the Concert LFE has more energy with bass frequencies @40Hz.


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Before starting some things I need to comment on.....



The Frequency (Hz) Amplitude (dB) Debate / Only Minor Differences?


You as the community can draw your own conclusions or share your own experiences. I do not seek to gain popularity, controversy or attain to be an expert on this subject. Just someone that has spent a lot of time with it over the years and delved into it maybe more than the average guy. Having also helped many in the past on various forums with an attitude of continuing to help or share with others.

I do disagree with Berney Villers own views/analysis that he expressed on the operational differences with various tactile units are only a minor factor to performance in using Simvibe.

Based on my own personal testing of all the models above but also several others too. This includes comparing both, piston and voice coil based designs over the last 10 years. Something I believe others also with experience of each type or with various models maybe can share via their own user/experiences and opinions.

However, while several units on the market can indeed share similar abilities in frequency response/power. This is not in my view the case with all, nor the abilities and operation of the 3 main Buttkicker designs/models currently available and illustrated below. These can be rather different indeed wth both the power delivery and usage of the low-end frequencies.

This will be looked at in detail in layman's terms later and the importance of increased low frequency (Hz) abilities from my own perspective and experiences from testing. You as the reader can determine if my views or methods are credible or not.

 

[Ryanchen]

It really is sad that there is so little interest on this subject as once setup, driving without it is really missing something big!
What does the manufacturer say the locations for optimal placement of the 7 transducers are on a sim rig?
Would you recommend any of the Clarks over Buttkickers for under the seat, pedals and shifter?

 

[Mr Latte]

It really is sad that there is so little interest on this subject as once setup, driving without it is really missing something big!
What does the manufacturer say the locations for optimal placement of the 7 transducers are on a sim rig?
Would you recommend any of the Clarks over Buttkickers for under the seat, pedals and shifter?

Hi, this thread was more aimed at different installations possibilities rather than actual installation positioning. Although certainly will try to offer you some help.

Most people seem to go for rather close proximity installations to the seat/pedals. There are many factors to consider but look upon tactile like water/electric, it will flow through connected surfaces where it can. It is possible to restrict or better sustain the flow "where needed" in set areas with rubber isolation materials and other means too, basically, so you feel more bone conduction in the vibrations.

If its able to flow all through various connected parts of a cockpit freely, it will likely feel less strong (as covering a bigger surface). So an installation where a units vibrations have to travel further, how are these directed to the seat/pedals? What else can the vibrations flow into, do you need/want them to flow into such? Tactile if connected to an isolated section, should maintain better strength and detail in that section. Simvibe does not to my understanding produce good front-back stereo representation but only left-right positional cues from suspension based effects. So the importance of vibrations mixing between seat/pedals are questionable if mono, with very little variation in each anyways for the front and rear units used in a CM config.

We always have to factor in different, materials, installation methods and user preferences. Again much of this could make an interesting discussion in its own place.

If you search some of my other posts you will find some discussion I have given on this to others. For info on different units and some installation ideas/thoughts. Also differences between Clark (voice coil) & Buttkicker or Earthquake (piston based) transducers.

Self Discoveries:
One aspect SimXperience as a company do not acknowledge. Is what benefits DSP controls can bring, found in the "Behringer Inuke DSP" amplifiers regards tuning and personalisation for how frequencies can be controlled by the user. They seem to be against anything not in line with their own interests or commercial aspects, so EQ and DSP control is by them, discounted as unnecessary or over-complicated when it's actually quite simple to learn to use, apply and can be very beneficial.

For me personally, in all the testing I have done, it is very relevant to accommodating different materials and user preferences. It's not as some assume for creating or altering "Simvibe Effects" but tuning the tactile operation on your installation. I've even used it to reduce pinging sound via altering some frequencies were causing on the steel chrome tubing I have.

Often it's possible to change the comfort/usage perception of how the tactile feels "good/bad" as in "underwhelming/overpowering" doing this by varying specific frequencies amplitude. That they may better align with different models, own performance abilities in their Hz reproduction and possible power delivery of them that each may have.

In my view, certain types/models can have their own characteristics. DSP control can help exploit these. Just as a user can also apply "personal profiles" via DSP, loading settings for late evening usage or specific mood at the time. Some underestimate what it can bring as a useful tool.

Experimentation is a good approach for installation trying more than one solution using others own recommended guidelines, yet it depends on the user if seeking a quick/fix installation or if seeking the best solution for the installation of what they have and how to get the most out of it.

 

[Miguel Gonzalez]

I'm interested in Simvibe and i've been looking into equipment but i'm not quite sure if the things im looking at are right for what i want to do. I'd eventually like to have a full CM mode with 4 shakers on each corner but i'd like to start off with EM with a shifter shaker and a seat shaker. I'm looking at the following pieces of equipment:

AMP:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01JO59IUY/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A1RS0JMDI1W43Y

Shaker:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009RGJ47S/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_4?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A1MIGQX5UYTESL

I think the small puck is more than enough for the Shifter shaker, i'm not sure it would be enough for the seat. I was also looking at the Aurasound pro's. Would that amp be enough to power 2 pucks or 1 puck and 1 aurapro or would i need something stronger?

 

[Mr Latte]

@miguel, with respect I don't want this thread to become some kind of thread/home for people to query their own tactile configurations and hardware ideas. It seems that's what people want to use it for, rather than discussing the topic on the "specific configurations and hardware" mentioned within. Who knows maybe one day someone will or want to build a cockpit and try both options to some degree but that's my own interest for this thread....

You are as are others, welcome to create your own thread, or a tactile thread for general discussions/questions and seek help that way. First thing you have to do is ensure the amp and tactile used both have compatible ohm rating. The Dayton puck can be purchased in the most common / 4ohm version. Ideally, you want an amplifier to have more power than the tactile requires as amps generally operate with less composure, higher distortion and generate more heat close to their max limits.

I wouldn't personally recommend buying the cheapest amp possible with the demands tactile can place on amps. Although the Dayton Pucs are not that hard to drive. I would look more longterm in getting a better amp that one day could also handle improved tactile models like the ADX or Mini LFE if the user ever wanted to later upgrade from the Dayton Pucs.

If budget is limited in my view its best to wait a little longer and even get an amp like the SMSL and only a single tactile unit to start with and build a configuration based on a "better foundation" with a more capable amplifier.

 

[Miguel Gonzalez]

@miguel, with respect I don't want this thread to become some kind of thread/home for people to query their own tactile configurations and hardware ideas. It seems that's what people want to use it for, rather than discussing the topic on the "specific configurations and hardware" mentioned within. Who knows maybe one day someone will or want to build a cockpit and try both options to some degree but that's my own interest for this thread....

I'm sorry I thought the purpose of the thread was for hardware and configuration questions. Thank you for your answer though. You may remove my post above if you'd like to keep things on topic, i'll take a screenshot of the reply and save it for later.

 

[Mr Latte]

No worries friend. I did have some info to the start relevant to various tactile and what in my view is a good starting level with the SMSL amplifier. It would work really well with Dayton Pucs too you are considering. *I had raised that if people wanted more info etc on amps/various tactile that could be covered in future/other threads...

This was highlighted only for the purpose to an intro as the thread was supposed to consider the most commonly used Buttkicker products with other configuration options and higher end Buttkicker models.

The Unanswered Questions / Best Buttkicker Scenario?
What produces the better all-round immersion?
How does each vary in effects delivery, detailing and power?
What may suit each individual based on their differences?

Personally, I really would love to have two identical cockpits and be able to put such to the test and for 1:1 comparisons. Event though I have done plenty of my own testing with these on my own test platform. I sought after other peoples views/experiences to share with viewers here.

Yet I doubt we will ever see "Youtube" sim channels cover such, as none, ever have regards really examining Simvibe and the options possible as they are usually sponsored just to promote the brands or products.

--------------------------------------------

I do have other threads (some started) and (others to come) with much of the research and background for them already done, that will cover the below. These should form the best resource in relation to tactile immersion available here or I believe currently found on any sim related forums.

• Cables & Connectors (almost finished)
• Audio Terminology Glossary *
• Understanding Waveforms / Frequencies *

 

[Peter Klawitter]

what do you think of this product?
http://www.crownaudio.com/en/products/xti-2002
would this work also?

 

[Mr Latte]

what do you think of this product?
http://www.crownaudio.com/en/products/xti-2002
would this work also?

@rocafella1978 as a brief answer to your question:
There is no doubt on Crown as a reliable and quality brand. Models like the Xti2 series that support the "HiQnet" feature set with "JBL Performance Manager" software". Those pack in, similar features to Behringer iNuke DSP with additional benefits of enabling control via iPhone / Ipad and allowing operation of multiple amps using networking, which isn't possible via USB connectivity with iNuke.

The main drawback is the price differences, especially in the UK/EU regions, Crown are much more expensive. The Crown Xti 2002 as an example being 3-4X more expensive than a Behringer iNuke DSP amp. Which with their "Remote Connect" software keeps DSP functions simple with an easy learning curve bringing several benefits over traditional amps.

They also as amplifiers have been found to perform remarkably well for their prices with home cinema professionals for powering and controlling high-end subwoofers. People do not need to take my word for such, research yourselves. As to why the iNuke DSP amps are therefore excellent amplifiers for low frequencies and tactile.

So I personally would question the need or reasons why to spend more on amplification or if possible benefits from the Crown models are indeed worth the additional cost?





*Please folks, with respect, keep any possible further questions or any discussion related to the "title & topic". I made it clear in #24 I want to avoid general hardware or personally directed queries on such here..

I will state again....

If people wanted to browse/read and forget this thread or the purpose of it that's fine as previously mentioned. I have continually tried to present on the forums here what for me was an intriguing consideration regards building/implementing tactile to a cockpit.

Doing so, offering an additional perspective, not covered so well anywhere and in greater detail. Simply to the point of comparing and challenging each option, to be considered in much more depth taking into account all factors and bringing fair and better understanding on EM Vs CM installations.

For me, this was something that I certainly have not seen in a forum before or attempted by any of the leading/mainstream sim hardware reviewers. This including those that have covered Simvibe via their own Youtube coverage or forums.

Neither have such professional reviewers in the last 5 years, even properly considered or compared the performances or differences in operations of all the Buttkicker Models available. Never mind a full shootout of the various tactile transducers on the market. Why in all this time?

The aim here........

Was to get the communities own feedback, opinions, preferences, and experiences by expressing either, issues/shortcomings they found or operation of the tactile pleasing them beyond what they had expected. Then to share those combined or varying experiences and findings with my own.

I specifically did not want this thread to be focused on what "Mr Latte Says". ​

It is why I have even held back findings I did find when comparing CM Vs EM configurations. As it's not about "me" or "my" preferences. Now it's become about my whining, frustration, with the lack of interest, including others who have either ignored me or the topic to which I should just accept and reflect on. Such shows me how many are often willing to seek help for themselves but not so willing to share or help others.

​

This thread was intended for the benefit and something, everyone or others new to sim racing or tactile could read and consider based on viewpoints and experiences from several Simvibe users/owners of the hardware options highlighted.

Yet after several weeks where are they?

My apologies but I've just about given up on this thread doing anything productive regards its original intention for the community. Including people, already as owners/willingness to contribute or even attempt to make something of it sharing their own views with other interested people here that would appreciate it or benefit greatly from it.




.

 

[Balroque]

I have 4 ADX with 2 SMSL in CM and Buttkicker 2 under my seat in EM. (using Obutto R3volution) This setup I made after your recommendation Mr. Latte last year and Im quite happy with it. I was considering to put another Bass shaker in EM mode under pedals, but in the end I decided not to because too many inputs in sim Rig.

If I would have to choose EM or CM, I prefer CM. The feeling for road bumps and loosing control of car going from 4 different position is in my opinion give you more immersion. EM using mostly for engine, crash and gear changing

 

[Mr Latte]

Yes I remember talking with you friend, glad you are enjoying your tactile.

Although in regards to the topic in this thread the general interest was in determining the possible advantages/disadvantages from the smaller-bigger Buttkicker models. Not just in CM Vs EM as what each do.

For example taking what you illustrated regards "engine experience" how does such compare with using 4 smaller units via CM to using dual bigger or even biggest units in EM for seat and pedals with similar user costs?

Options A B C illustrated here, are likely to offer rather different results, how/what are the pros/cons? This as stated, has never to my knowledge been particularly investigated or illustrated. It's not just about comparing EM to CM using the "same units", no but rather discovering, also how higher end models may increase the immersion or level of raw energy/violence simulating such an environment as a racing cockpit.

Each model has 3x the general weight difference in the pistons used. It was reasonable to question how in real world usage do these effect the low-end frequencies delivery and capabilities but also the potential speed or detailing each model may produce? Or do we just presume them all to be similar and bigger models as just being overkill with 4 smaller units always the better option?

 

[DayGlow]

Would simvibe bring anything to the table if you only have a single transducer for your chair? Right now it's simply an extension of my bass channel. Would the cost of simvibe be beneficial in this situation?

 

[paulopsx2]

well.. i done with my motion full frame platform, and added some features, like wind simulator, and off course, simvibe. Its a piece of cake on a MASTER RACE sim, because all bumps, jumps, and other effects ( on other games too, in NO LIMITS ROLLERCOASTER 2 for example, frequencys are impressive. VERY impressive ) Are felt, and turn what was common into almost reality! Difficult to describe how much the experience changes, giving life to the "toy". I tested the buttkickers, and I can only say that it's an exaggeration. We do not need so much vibration, in fact, it is necessary to even lower the dbs so that it is possible to stay on top of the cockpit. I'm using 4 aura pro of 50watts, and a 4ohms amplifier, with 100 watts per channel; Are 4 channels, 2 stereo inputs, volume control for each side (front, back) and a switch that regulates roughly, HFL, FLAT and LFL (high, flat and low freq levels.) More than enough, Because the aura are strategically placed one at each end of the frame. I recommend the setup, it's worth spending a bit more (including simvibe software, which costs around $ 89). FUNDAMENTAL, fasten the transducers to the correct locations with VERY firm, tinned wire ends, and always keep the screws tight to prevent anything around them from dismantling (and believe me, it happens.) It is imperative that the entire cockpit is stable, robust. Otherwise, the solution with only 1 mono transducer straight into the chair is better. http://s347.photobucket.com/user/paulopsx2/slideshow/

 

[paulopsx2]

Would simvibe bring anything to the table if you only have a single transducer for your chair? Right now it's simply an extension of my bass channel. Would the cost of simvibe be beneficial in this situation?

i dont see any benefitts on it. simvibe its better ( and only, i think ) for 2 or more transducers.. in quadrafonic. For 1 trans, simple put the line in on kicker above your seat.

 

[Mr Latte]

Would simvibe bring anything to the table if you only have a single transducer for your chair? Right now it's simply an extension of my bass channel. Would the cost of simvibe be beneficial in this situation?

I would say yes certainly, lots of people enjoy Simvibe with a single unit or start with only one.

Many of Simvibe effects are mono and will allow you to determine the Hz they will use. The more capable the unit/amp you have. Then the better the sensation/immersion you will be able to deliver for the lowest frequencies the effects may be producing. As an example, if you have a unit that delivers its best feeling tactile from 40Hz then a unit that can deliver excellent energy from 20Hz instead gives you more usable frequencies. The quality of bass energy output regards frequencies is not the same thing as wattage. In a sense it's not how much your rig/chair is shaking but how well the vibrations are delivered by the hardware used. How well it is maintained throughout by good installation and potential isolation being applied.

Perhaps similar in principle to home cinema if using a basic subwoofer, it may be alright but rather lacking if compared to one that is specifically made for higher levels of performance. Therefore being more capable to really deliver low frequencies with high levels of energy, more composure and authority. Such can be a night/day of difference.

Nothing stopping you from starting with one unit and expanding this later with more if you wanted.
Alternatively, it's also possible to mix a few Simvibe effects you may like with the low-frequency audio you are already using. Both do some things the others do not, both have some advantages and disadvantages.

 

[Mr Latte]

I have created a thread for general discussion, questions and sharing of people's own experiences.
Here

 

[signman]

does anyone know where to get AluExtrusion mounts for CS's or BK's?[/QUOTE]

I just had 6mm plates water jet cut to mount the BK Advance to my Profile.
If you require any more info just say.

 

[Freakinbananas]

Hi Mr Latte, thanks for all the information you have giving about the setups!

 

[SimGirl]

Hi Mr. Latte, sorry if this is off topic but above you stated that you use BK LFE and TST 439 on your rig. Which one do you have where and why? Also would you try to describe the difference between the two - I suppose in terms of piston vs voice coil and what you think the advantages/disadvantages of each are? I'm guessing you have the LFE under your seat for engine rumble and the TsT 439 on your pedals for exhaust/engine and road feel. The most important thing I'm looking for is engine/exhaust reproduction - I want to feel like I'm sitting in a real car. Road feel and/or "bumps" (suspension/"what the tires are doing") are secondary to the immersion of the engine/exhaust note for me. Just to put in perspective I have never used any tactile device before - I've never even tried out a sim rig before. I'm currently planning out a high-end build on either an Obutto or SimXperience Stage 3 (not sure if I want to go with motion due to budget/cost limitations, but if I go Obutto route now I plan to add GS-5 when it's released). I will be using Vive Pro with Assetto Corsa, PC2, and iRacing. Thanks!

 

[Mr Latte]

Hi Mr. Latte, sorry if this is off topic but above you stated that you use BK LFE and TST 439 on your rig. Which one do you have where and why? Also would you try to describe the difference between the two - I suppose in terms of piston vs voice coil and what you think the advantages/disadvantages of each are? I'm guessing you have the LFE under your seat for engine rumble and the TsT 439 on your pedals for exhaust/engine and road feel. The most important thing I'm looking for is engine/exhaust reproduction - I want to feel like I'm sitting in a real car. Road feel and/or "bumps" (suspension/"what the tires are doing") are secondary to the immersion of the engine/exhaust note for me. Just to put in perspective I have never used any tactile device before - I've never even tried out a sim rig before. I'm currently planning out a high-end build on either an Obutto or SimXperience Stage 3 (not sure if I want to go with motion due to budget/cost limitations, but if I go Obutto route now I plan to add GS-5 when it's released). I will be using Vive Pro with Assetto Corsa, PC2, and iRacing. Thanks!

Hi, we should chat more, if my wife allows me
Think you had a previous query one time and it didn't get properly answered/resolved.

I cant express things well in short sentences.....

I've covered this in what i named it as "Dual Role" just google or search here and you will find why I split the operation over 2 units. Mainly it is simply because the different units have their own strengths and advantages with different Hz. However also using two units can let the user split the workload, or double up the tactile activity bringing the same effects but in the way or characteristic each unit has. The other benefit is the potential to encompass the user better with a more efficient usage of reaching different body regions, (thighs/backside/spine). Two units do this better than one obviously.

What should be noted from this thread was the attempt early on to determine how or if from peoples views each operated sufficently, Then tat as to my own views. The bigger more costly tactile models certainly bring improved immersion over having multiple quantities with lesse quality models. What advantages can Simvibe CM bring, in real world usage from the various sims. How well does it perform? What is so good about CM and having potential front or back stereo?

That needs to be taken into account compared to what a much bigger or more professional tactile unit used in perhaps EM potentially can bring to the table. So many people seem swayed by the "more is better" than what the attributes of the actual models used are capable of bringing.

One of the most important factors is if a user wants REALLY immersive and QUALITY tactile experience. Such that in having tactile hardware that can extend all the way down to the very lowest frequencies with much more impactful energy. Those that have a limited budget can still get a good experience from more affordable hardware, enjoyable as many with such can reflect on, Although we are seeing more starting to seek not just a tactile experience, instead to feel it more at its potential best and what approach or hardware they need to consider for this.

All I do is go perhaps overboard as a hobbyist to look at options, creativity in various areas to push things more in what performance or complete immersion we can get from it all. I enjoy this aspect of building such into a sim cockpit.



Fbi
My own new build will showcase things not seen before on any tactile implemented rig, regards full body immersion. This based on previous testing (with more to do) and experimentation.


Effects Data / Sim Physics etc

If I am correct telemetry based tactile like SSW or Simvibe uses, does not have physics data for "exhaust" or "engine". Simvibe engine effects are manually created, as such they are fake/bake by tones the user determines. It is not as if data, based on tones, like say musical notes are taken from real cars are are coming direct from the sim into Simvibe and out to the tactile.

The curent options are not directly related to an actual car or data it outputs specific to engine, transmission or exhaust. Some people are misguided in thinking selecting a V4 - V12 within Simvibe is actually in a technical level bringing accurate representation in some way to that type of car driven. This is not the case. However, with clever tools and tone generation Simvibe does allow for quite a lot of creativity here. I even developed into creating effects for a Porsche 911 that tried to generate natural occuring harmonics that represented those of the real car. It was self-exploration and experimenting but that profile is used still today by a lot of people but for all types of cars. That was not the intention for it.

The problem is that doing this in Simvibe is a long learning curve to master and better understand the control options, exactly what they do and how we can bring in specif sensations at set RPM or Speed values. So yes fake/bake but potentially its possible to have quite complexed but nice feeling engine response.

One thing Simvibe seemed to lack but SSW does rather brilliantly is an effect that works with the engine but is based on the acceleration or deceleration G loads.

The other issue is Simvibes rather dire front end and limited UI.
The requirement of many layers of effects to create a more complexed engine effect cant be avoided.

Yes they added a "Quad" engine mode to better separate engine effect layers from the layers of other effects. The problem with this is, if experimenting in creating engine effects in this mode you loose important (additional features) that you can use in "single layers".

I believe but ask around, if anything most people that use Simvibe stick to single or only a couple of favorite profiles. This is far from "accurate" on a technical level in bringing variation or more at least better level of fake/bake to represent different types of cars potential tactile character.

Several times I've asked on this community for those into i-racing (most active community for Simvibe) bring me the best Simvibe profiles that have been created in 6 years of its release. Let me compare the best of whats available from the community to what I seek to do with SSW.

I have a rig that is being built specifically for tactile performance as its No.1 primary function.
Fancy wheel and pedals or other hardware for me, will come after that. My own build will use whatever tactile solutions can bring the best complete immersion. Some may be interested to follow this path others see it as OTT or not necessary. Personally, I believe its possible with tactile to get more "usable" immersion, more detailed and varied immersion for individual cars than with motion. It why I keep rattling on about "car profiles" as my own (on-going) experimentation is showing potential here.


Not one but Both
Their are many instances with "telemetry" based tactile we find that their is "no data" therefore no possible response. Yet we can bring them to life with clever control and usage of mixing in "audio tactile" as quite a few things it can bring to the combined experience.

Audio can bring transmission and exhaust signature based from the rather awesome array of "sound fx" for different cars available and created by the community. Just the other night I was playing around with audio tactile settings and hardware.

Had my car parked on the edge of the track and to feel the other cars whoosing past and their exhaust (loud car like C7R or AMG GTR are better) is an example (note though im boosting the audio in clever ways) of what you cant get from Simvibe etc. It brings more atmosphere but even to some effects that are active in telemetry.

One issue for telemetry is the "brrrrrrrrr" sensation from saw curbs that people want to feel better. Yet we find in the audio a boost of @100-120 Hz EQ slider will help increase this felt sensation from the audio-tactile. Yet when "MIXED" properly with the Simvibe or SSW tactile you then get a combined and improved response.

I harp on about this all the time but what I see is so much more potential than what even some guys think they have as being awesome with 4 or 8 Mini Lfe and a maxed out Simvibe installation.

Not even close to where or the level I am taking this....

 

[signman]

Having profiles for each car is super important far as I'm concerned.

Front, Rear, Mid engine all feel different in the driving seat as do all the multiple
engine configuration's.

Short shifting in a lumpy V8 or a screaming F1 car with SQ box.
Bring it on Mr. Latte I say.