Sim Game Audio - 2 Channel Vs 4 Channel Vs 5.1

[Mr Latte]

I was seeking peoples own preferences or findings in what they use or prefer for game audio.
Has anyone really done detailed comparisons or a technical overview of how their favourite sims output the audio?

What I am referring to here is how well the rear surround channels, center channel and subwoofer channel is used in racing sims. As from some things I have read not all games use the individual channels as well as we may expect.

What I want to evaluate is how much do they bring in comparison to very good "Stereo Speakers" or even "Quad Surround" with front and rear speakers only being used? I would like to focus here on speakers, not headsets/headphones or usage of Windows 10 Dolby Atmos for headphones.

I am aware many sim rigs sell with Logitech or other 5.1 packages but from a past hobby in home cinema, I feel that such a small area of space (typical 3x6ft space for a sim rig) is necessarily not ideal for 6 channel audio.

 

[Emery]

I am aware many sim rigs sell with Logitech or other 5.1 packages but from a past hobby in home cinema, I feel that such a small area of space (typical 3x6ft space for a sim rig) is necessarily not ideal for 6 channel audio.

My setup is a 6.1 Yamaha amp (cheap used purchase) fed by a 5.1 soundcard. The surround speakers are good old-fashioned 30Hz-20kHz stereo speakers with 10-inch subwoofers because the modern home audio approach of 6" speakers generally sound of tin without any richness. They're arrayed in an approximately 3' (1 meter) radius circle. There is a 12" subwoofer used for music and videos, but it really plays no part in simracing titles as the soundtracks don't go that low, though it would be of use for people who have small speakers.

When I was putting this together, I tried several combinations of speakers and came to the conclusion that 4-channels of big speakers (old-fashioned stereo speakers with 10-12" woofers) are probably ideal for simracing as the soundstage for simracing is not the same as for movies, so the front center channel is redundant in 5.1, 6.1, & 7.1 and extra rear channel(s) of 6.1/7.1 add very little to spatial awareness.

When it comes to current simracing titles supporting surround sound, rF2 gets an F for merely outputting stereo to surround cards and pCARS 2 gets an A for best channel separation. The other titles are a B+. Sound quality entirely depends on the quality of the samples rather than the sound engine used, so your experience can vary even within the same title. For what my opinion is worth, my favorites for overall sound are the Panoz Esperante GTR1 in pCARS 2 and the Formula Vee in AMS.

 

[Mr Latte]

Thanks for detailed response.
Over the years I have had various pretty good 5.1 or 7.1 speaker configs for a home cinema and gaming purpose based room. What I want though for my cockpit is to push the audio experience beyond the norm bringing excellent low bass energy without it being overbearing or blowing my eardrums out. I have some specialist audio toys that can help with this but I do feel 4 speakers, partnering each with a woofer driver and each with their own Crossover/EQ controls will deliver a much fuller soundstage even at the cost of possibly some surround based effects.

We may agree to some extents that having good quality with nice stereo representation is maybe more important than just having more channels or mixed levels of quality in how surround channels are implemented in various racing titles.

I have considered different options, Did notice that Forza 7 had very good channel usage having heard it on a friends home cinema but also noticing how good its stereo effects were with curbs etc.

I don't believe all PC titles make full use of the subwoofer channel. This is not necessarily the same thing as with say pre-recorded soundtracks via Dolby/DTS having sometimes its own discrete effects that may not go to other channels. Center channel seems to be for mono based effects but again depending on the game's mix how its implemented may vary.

If you get a chance can you do some tests and tell me if you feel "Quad Surround" is any real benefit to running with dual A/B front/back stereo. Does windows in this mode just duplicate the front channels? Or do some titles have discrete surround steering based effects that are worth taking into consideration for the immersion or are these just meh?

I can have 5.1 but use 4 subwoofers instead of a single unit connected to the sub output. Although like you said, I think its much better to give each speaker its own dedicated 12" woofer than have 4 subs outputting the bass frequencies only by what the soundcards crossover determines.

 

[Emery]

If you get a chance can you do some tests and tell me if you feel "Quad Surround" is any real benefit to running with dual A/B front/back stereo. Does windows in this mode just duplicate the front channels? Or do some titles have discrete surround steering based effects that are worth taking into consideration for the immersion or are these just meh?

Had to think a bit about what you were asking...

Yes, Quad Surround beats the pants off dual stereo as Windows (or the hardware) is just duplicating the front channels to the rear. So in your case you can use a 5.1 soundcard, uncheck the front center and the subwoofer channels in Windows setup, and then hardwire your 4 subwoofers & crossover with the 4 speakers.

 

[Mr Latte]

Had to think a bit about what you were asking...

Yes, Quad Surround beats the pants off dual stereo as Windows (or the hardware) is just duplicating the front channels to the rear. So in your case you can use a 5.1 soundcard, uncheck the front center and the subwoofer channels in Windows setup, and then hardwire your 4 subwoofers & crossover with the 4 speakers.

Ok, yes I am aware of removing cen/sub but my query is say I only output stereo but then duplicate the stereo output for a Front & Rear stereo pair.

Let me give you an idea into my thinking here.
Potentially with the "Quad Surround Sound" option some titles may highlight surround based effects, like for example a car behind the driver closing in under braking. This is not to say the same sound is not in the stereo mix just that in a 4.0 or 5.1 config it is positioned at the rear speaker channels.

Now if I duplicate the typical stereo output I would have the same sound out of both the front and rear so in this case would lose the surround positioning but then would have the audio out of all 4 speakers.

If say to paint a scenario, I wanted to run with front and rear stereo I can then apply level controls and EQ independently for the front or rear speakers. So lets say Im in cockpit view, I want to highlight the car being driven which in scenario (A) is a V12 rear engine based car.

My thoughts are I can set the controls to have the audio from the rear speakers bring more of the sound and energy to help give the impression of an engine behind me. I can pair this with having a specific car profile for my tactile. That it too places the engine energy much greater in the seat/rear.

So now for, scenario (B) lets assume it is a V10 front engine based car. This time I could have the front speakers produce more presence and volume and combine this with my tactile from a saved preset applying the tactile energy more to the front

These would be things I would like to play around with.

 

[Emery]

The problem with duplicated stereo is that rear engine formula cars will noticeably not put the engine behind you unless you have quad surround. The immersion is basically lost compared to real-life and trying to compensate by shifting the fore/aft balance is not going to work because then you lose the other sounds that should be in front of you.

Honestly, the games do a decent job when it comes to surround in this regard and a proper surround system will still let you adjust the balance better than a duplicated stereo system. Let the tactile system do what it needs to do separately from the sound.

 

[Mr Latte]

The problem with duplicated stereo is that rear engine formula cars will noticeably not put the engine behind you unless you have quad surround. The immersion is basically lost compared to real-life and trying to compensate by shifting the fore/aft balance is not going to work because then you lose the other sounds that should be in front of you.

Honestly, the games do a decent job when it comes to surround in this regard and a proper surround system will still let you adjust the balance better than a duplicated stereo system. Let the tactile system do what it needs to do separately from the sound.

Okay thanks for your input on this, you mention two interesting points. Though I would like to validate what you are saying here is actually happening. You miss also how I will incorporate audio tactile with telemetry based tactile as it is a key factor to getting the best immersion and something I have done a great deal of testing with.

Can you or anyone give me an example which titles or indeed cars are best for using the surround channels. Doing what you just mentioned in placing the engine more on the rear channels if indeed the car selected is a rear engine based car or the front channels if the car selected is front engine based.

Seeking More Understanding
What I want to do is test and compare such things, to understand but not second guess or assume things here. Is this something someone has really covered before in a thread somewhere?

If we focus on the intention to verify which titles in their audio effects design/distribution really make use of additional channels over stereo and how they do it.

Not, however, just primarily have a mainly stereo based audio mix and then this is upscaled to higher channel configurations like Dolby have used since Pro Logic II for 5.1 and Pro Logic IIx for 7.1. With other DSP audio options created after these old technologies and available to developers for game audio design. For instance how FMOD and its tools is used by many leading studios for titles like P Cars, Assetto Corsa, Driveclub, Forza etc.


Specific Audio Channel Usage
Can you confirm which titles offer "fore/aft" balance you mention? If you want, please give me more examples where or how "fore/aft" is used in this way in surround sound.

If we take an example of wheel/audio sounds for curbs, can a user place a front left wheel and have it heard primarily in the front left channel for correct positioning? By this, if it is like you state, then we should be able do the same for any of the 4 wheels, yes and get correct audible positioning over the stereo but independently for front and rear channels as well?


Confirmation Via Monitoring The Audio
What I will do with ACC when it arrives is monitor its speaker output for stereo compared to other options. At the moment this is mainly my primary focus title. I can easily monitor upto 8 channels activity in real-time on a secondary display.

So then I suppose, its possible to use (like in AC) only one or a few effects at a time and then monitor how each channel is being used by this effect or effect group for the corresponding sound configuration. Recording the realtime video operation of this monitoring and compare it with re-run tests using 2.0, 4.0, 5.1 or 7.1. This in essence will confirm what effects may use the directional output for the front and rear channels be this fore/aft that you mention but also how the cen and sub channels are used for any specific low-frequency output or mono effect centralisation.


Competizione Audio
Of course, this is time-consuming but I will wait to do this with Competizione than look into previous titles for now.

Would this interest anyone? Has anyone any links or info they can share that actially does full detailed comparisons on PC game audio and verify, not just speculate or assume how the different options compare?

Also in your opinion is what I propose, a good or fair way to determine what fore/aft or indeed how surround effects and the cen/sub channels are being utilised?

Please give more info or views you share, thanks.

 

[Emery]

If we take an example of wheel/audio sounds for curbs, can a user place a front left wheel and have it heard primarily in the front left channel for correct positioning? By this, if it is like you state, then we should be able do the same for any of the 4 wheels, yes and get correct audible positioning over the stereo but independently for front and rear channels as well?

Most cars don't have a significant difference in track width to conclusively test this, but then I remembered the Reliant Robin mod for AC. Loading it up, I was able to confirm that AC separates the sound for all four wheels (er, 3 in the Robin's case, LOL) fore/aft in addition to left/right when played in surround sound.

 

[Emery]

Most cars don't have a significant difference in track width to conclusively test this.

Ah, but if you drive over a kerb at a modest speed, at right angles as if it is a speed bump, then it's easy to hear front/rear timing of wheels. Was able to verify AMS & R3E separate the sound for all four wheels fore/aft in addition to left/right. I have my doubts about pCARS 2... the kerb sounds seem more canned and stereo; if they're separated fore/aft, then there's very little timing difference. Collisions are surround sound in all titles.

 

[Mr Latte]

Most cars don't have a significant difference in track width to conclusively test this, but then I remembered the Reliant Robin mod for AC. Loading it up, I was able to confirm that AC separates the sound for all four wheels (er, 3 in the Robin's case, LOL) fore/aft in addition to left/right when played in surround sound.

Thanks for feedback....
I remember downloading a "suspension test track" for AC from somewhere as it has all different types of bumps. This is good for monitoring each wheels activity. We can see sometimes from the outer views for the car that while not always but often a one-sided bump still can have an effect on the car's suspension on the opposite side.

So this is why I assume from telemetry based suspension in tactile operation we may not always find that stereo activity is 100% on/off in L/R. Often a response could be stronger on one side but still activating the opposite channel. This may or may not happen with the games audio as well in some titles for L/R activity?

Its possible some sounds for certain effects may be mono in some titles. PCars1 seemed to have this with say 2 left wheels on the grass, the right would also get a response. This for me ruined the stereo presentation and immersion compared to other titles.

Sometimes it can be harder to try and do this with a single wheel than a left/right side.
Good to confirm however you are noticing titles deliver 4 wheel independent response. This bodes well for a quad surround type config. Usually its easier to test the left or right sides. Applying 2 wheels on grass etc is an ideal method.

Some tracks can have corners we place one side of the wheels of the car onto a large curb then the other side follows. Brands Hatch "Graham Hill" bend is an example the user can go wide onto the large curb, with all of the car momentarily on the curb and then the opposite side we feel going back on the main track surface lastly with the other side again.

I really enjoy this type of stereo activity, feeling it in tactile but also hearing it with good bass from speakers/subs for the L/R sides. Often good audible bass, when combined with felt tactile bass, is a great immersions aspect with the onscreen action and the users steering input.

I think its hard to notice it in action with a single wheel as it can happen so fast but we notice the L/R stereo for both wheels more easily.

 

[Mr Latte]

Ah, but if you drive over a kerb at a modest speed, at right angles as if it is a speed bump, then it's easy to hear front/rear timing of wheels. Was able to verify AMS & R3E separate the sound for all four wheels fore/aft in addition to left/right. I have my doubts about pCARS 2... the kerb sounds seem more canned and stereo; if they're separated fore/aft, then there's very little timing difference. Collisions are surround sound in all titles.

Thanks for confirming other titles.

Yes even PCars 1 was limited. The telemetry must be related obviously for the audio as it is for the tactile as I recall with Simvibe PCars1 bumps were mono in nature which I believe its audio for curbs also is active on the opposite side. I don't know if later patches fixed this or if it was corrected for PCars2.

So, clearly some titles would benefit a "Quad Surround" speaker installation for positional audio placement of the 4 wheels.

Surely, this then also verifies that "Game Audio Tactile" in such titles can be used over 4 way tactile installation to help enhance the directional tactile sensations as I have alluded to many times in the past. We can combine audio and tactile to increase the immersion but these work in tandem together.

Using such to potentially in like, what I seek to do, by combining "Audio Tactile" also with a "Telemetry Tactile" based option like SSW, Shakeit or Simvibe. Then have control of the operation in the mix for each source.


Engine & Surround
What I would like for you to do is confirm what you said with the engines.
Which titles perhaps offer or utilise the engine in fore/aft with front/rear engine placement matching the type of car used. This may also be different based on the view used within the title. However lets perhaps focus on the cockpit views.

Or will you find that in most titles the engine is possibly the same for the front and back stereo channels in the way it is distributed?

How also is "Engine" perhaps used for the "Center & Sub" channels, what do these bring over a typical stereo or indeed 4.0 configuration.

Good work btw, nice to discuss this aspect of applying good audio into a sim rig.

 

[Emery]

Engine & Surround
What I would like for you to do is confirm what you said with the engines.
Which titles perhaps offer or utilise the engine in fore/aft with front/rear engine placement matching the type of car used.

AC, AMS, R3E, and pCARS 2 all use fore/aft engine sounds in cockpit view. In an unusual move, R3E presents the sound as mostly front stereo, but puts the exhaust crackles on the rear channel.

When it comes to the subwoofer, only Wreckfest has made use of those effects during collisions. However it could be my strong low frequency surround speakers might be masking some effects because I felt some subwoofer thumps when I accidently had R3E turned up 4db beyond my normal listening range. My subwoofer crossover is set for standard movies (80 Hz? can't remember) and the system is equalized with Room EQ Wizard & a calibrated microphone. I'll experiment a bit more with subwoofer effects...

 

[Emery]

Subwoofer in R3E comes into play, just barely, during backfires if volume is turned up. Using the subwoofer channel doesn't appear to be something Sector 3 was intentionally trying to do.

 

[Mr Latte]

Was on nightshift so kinda tired, thanks for the feedback your giving. Excellent work.

It does seem that Quad is worth having over A/B stereo but from your reports, it seems Sim games are not really making many benefits (if any) with the cen/sub channels. I have to re-consider my options as mixing 4 channels of audio in with telemetry tactile brings more hassle. Utilising external PEQ is much easier with stereo, so ideas I had to adapt/boost the audio for tactile have to perhaps be re-looked at.