read more: FFB Tweaks

I've worked with x4fab to add a new feature to the Custom Shaders Patch (as of 0.1.51) and the description is fairly brief so I thought it's worth going into a bit more detail about what this does.

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Gyro Implementation

[ ] Active check to enable
Strength 25% adjust effect strength
AC has an "Experimental Gyro" FFB effect whose purpose was adding gyroscopic effects to the steering. It never lost the experimental tag and all it's generally recommended for is damping down oscillations on direct drive wheels.
This is that, developed slightly further based on my understanding of the nature of gyroscopic forces. I have a pretty solid case for making this change, and I believe this force exists in actual cars, and AC's original experimental gyro does not.

The developed version still suits the purpose of damping oscillations, but more importantly it decouples the body from the front wheels - so if the front wheels are pointing in a direction and the body moves around them, no gyroscopic precession happens, and no force is generated. Concretely, what we're talking about here is oversteer - on the original experimental gyro, the force acts counter to self-alignment during oversteer. With this new implementation, self-alignment is allowed to occur freely, or, if the oversteer is so quick that the wheels can't self-align, it'll actually push in the direction of alignment.

25% is simply equivalent to the original force multiplier used on experimental gyro when merging it with other FFB forces. Ultimately, the same as the other amplification ffb effects like road and slip effect, the slider is available to magnify it if your hardware's limitations are obscuring the effect.
As of CSP 0.1.53 the strength slider is outdated. A calculation using the suspension geometry now provides the right precession-based force for each car.
The description is a little bit misleading; this replaces "Experimental Gyro" so disabling it is superfluous, if this is Active, experimental gyro is not. Still, it won't hurt to disable experimental gyro and be certain it's off.

Now that I've said what the intent is, I will also note the following: this changes FFB in pretty much every dynamic situation. It's not just an improvement for drift cars or for vintage cars that oversteer constantly; any time the car moves around on the tires it feels slightly different from before. To me, it's a positive change, it's clearer what the car is doing, and I have heard similarly positive comments from testers. Nonetheless, I am not omniscient, I have not driven all these cars in real life, it's up to you to decide whether it improves your game or gives you better sim feeling the rubber or what. Modifying games to improve the FFB is a fine tradition starting with some extremely thorough efforts in rfactor1, and this is no different (maybe a bit easier to install).

I will note that it slightly increases max forces when cornering so if you have stuff set up to barely clip, you'll need an adjustment downward in global ffb mult.

Range Compression

Range compression 100% - 100% is the "default off" of this effect
[ ] Range compression assist - check to convert cars' "steer assist" into range compression.

New FFB Tweak available as of 0.1.53. The name comes from the audio world, where dynamic range compression means bringing up the quiet sounds while leaving loud sounds at their original volume. This is a much more second derivative friendly version of the Gamma effect.

The percentage is straightforward: Set it to how much you want to multiply small forces. Or adjust it in sync with your overall gain if you want to maintain the level of small forces and change large forces. For example, 200% compression + 50% gain = original 100% on small forces, larger forces decrease. If you're curious, the curve at the point of maximum force is simply the inverse, 200% compression will cause large forces 50% of the original delta in force. But in combination with 50% gain, you're moving the original maximum force downward and the ceiling before the game clips is much higher.

Think of this like power steering: you only want it to assist the heavy forces and give you maximum feel of the light forces.

This is very much an "adjust to taste" thing, it operates smoothly enough that you're safe running it upward of 300%, and I have seen IRL data indicating that manufacturers effectively go as high as 600% in power steering systems, when they want to bring 20+N forces down to a comfortable 2-3N.

Steer assist is a built in per-car feature of AC that applies a gamma function to that car's FFB. If you check Range compression assist, then FFB Tweaks will calculate an appropriate range compression adjustment, and disable steer assist. This should give you a far more normal FFB feeling (no weird bumps around center) while retaining the original goal of giving high downforce cars enough low-speed FFB to be drivable.
 
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  • Deleted member 197115

SC2 Pro here as well. Could you give an example of Kunos cars that do that? I haven't played AC that much recently, but at least the cars I did run didn't feel overly heavy to me.
RUF, KTM, M3 . . .

Initiate understeer to get wheel lighter and watch how quickly wheel returns to center position after traction is gained back with OEM and fixed Gyro. With Kunos implementation it's holding back and producing gentle, controlled return, with fixed one it just snaps back violently. Adding enormous amount of damping can lessen this effect but makes wheel overall less reactive and lazy with subdued details. Also oscillation on straights when you let wheel go can be more pronounced with the new one.
 
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RUF, KTM, M3 . . .
The NSX is more or less correctly implemented. Seeing as it's an unassisted rack when at speed, you could try that out.

The worst error in steering geo I've seen in a car in general must be the KS Supra, with 0.36 SAI vs my laserscan reference's 9.41 SAI. That's a 2600% error, for the record. Most aspects of cars are only 50 - 300% off, so I guess it's not that bad usually. :rolleyes:
 
  • Deleted member 197115

I don't think limiting content just to satisfy a new gyro algorithm is a viable option for most of us.
Glad you guys have found the issue and fixed it, and happy that you made it optional.
Like I've mentioned earlier, perhaps adjustable dynamic damping like in ACC would have been a better option suited for wider range of wheels in use.
For now stock Gyro, while not perfect, does the job, even on "wrong physics" Kunos cars.
 
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Gyro and ffb in general work off the same steering geometry, it's not going to make it behave better or worse. It's mostly relevant for why the checkbox to set ffb mult to the unassisted amount will not work.

What you describe as "wrong" is actually the exact situation that led me to find the bug in the first place, the extremely slow return to center with original gyro enabled is not at all realistic and it makes cars harder to drive.

I don't know what ACC's dynamic damping consists of coding-wise, all public descriptions sound to me exactly like what the corrected gyro does.
 
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Yeah, the sim doesn't get altered or anything by the cars, it will still work the same way. I'm just assuming Andrew is comparing back-to-back with those real cars, which is unlikely to lead to good correlation with the parameters they have in them.

Of course, if the comparison is just based on beliefs, then maybe a reality check is in order. Like Stereo said, wheels return quite quickly in real cars. Potentially several rotations per second. Just needs enough baseline damping/friction to not oscillate. Perhaps try dialing up the driver side damping and using the better gyro implementation.
 
  • Deleted member 197115

I don't know what ACC's dynamic damping consists of coding-wise, all public descriptions sound to me exactly like what the corrected gyro does.
ACC dynamic damping has the same "slow SAT return" that makes it more natural comparing to freeform violent snap back.
Not sure about algorithm in use, but feeling wise it's almost exact replica of AC stock (wrong) Gyro.
GamerMuscle has done pretty good job describing the effect in his video.
 
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RUF, KTM, M3 . . .

Initiate understeer to get wheel lighter and watch how quickly wheel returns to center position after traction is gained back with OEM and fixed Gyro. With Kunos implementation it's holding back and producing gentle, controlled return, with fixed one it just snaps back violently.
If the front wheels suddenly regain traction, shouldn't the steering wheel want to return to center quickly? I don't really see that happening slowly in such a situation. Maybe there is a preference =/= reality thing going on here? I'm not an expert tho, I'm just deducing.

Anyways, I did try the three cars you listed... well any M3 & RUF since you didn't specify. None of them seem to behave especially violently when regaining traction IMO. What I can say however, is that they do have heavier steering compared to eg a GT3 car in AC and therefore the wheel reacts more violent in certain situations. I've noticed that with several AC road cars with the SimuCube, eg the modern Lamborghinis.
 
  • Deleted member 197115

Anyways, I did try the three cars you listed... well any M3 & RUF since you didn't specify. None of them seem to behave especially violently when regaining traction IMO.
"Violently" can be subjective thing, have you noticed difference in behavior between OEM and "fixed" gyro in these situations. Watch the ACC video above, it better explains "expected" behavior.
For the record my SC2 Pro settings for AC.

AC has been my sim of choice since EA and used with DD wheels since 2015. The gyro when it was introduced by Kunos was a godsend gift for us DD users and the only thing that could tame oscillation and rough SAT.

Reiza seems to be trying to copy it with their version of dynamic dampening which still needs lots of work IMO, other sims that don't have it require additional amount of damping and friction (lots of it) which affects fidelity.
 
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@Andrew_WOT

The thing you have wrong here is probably running max strength on a car which outputs under half of that IRL, and thinking that you get "steering fidelity" in real cars which means you need zero damping and zero friction. Your setup is probably wrong, from what I can see, if 5% damping and 5% friction is as low as I think. Perhaps try closer to 30% or more. Not surprised if the ideal is closer to 50% for realistic feel.

A DD would allow you to whip it to lock faster than any real rack ever would (was it not for their driver limited RPM) with stronger force than any powersteering rack ever would. One reason why I told you to stop comparing manual rack steering feel to PS steering feel. Also, many KS cars have clipping FFB default (for lower end wheel users to get adequate "steering fidelity"), so watch out.

The sensible thing to do is dial the gain down to an appropriate amount, perhaps 30% or under for a PS car (Not sure how these DD's work in that regard so you will have to do your own tweaking) and add in a large amount of driver damping and friction, on top of the correct gyro damping. I think you're using the flawed KS damping because it results in, sometimes, better behavior due to your incorrect driver setup.

I think what is going on that you fundamentally misunderstand how steering systems even behave and are reluctant to use the features that the hardware manufacturers provided to you for a reason, because you think real cars have aggressive and punchy "steering fidelity" or you "feel every crack in the road" which are not even modeled into AC physics meshes and can't be felt to begin with. Gevatter is probably right in that your perception =/= reality.

DD's have basically zero friction and no damping, while real systems generally have roughly as much or a bit more friction than the higher end *belt* wheels and is being damped by assembly components. Due to that you absolutely must introduce damping and friction from the driver, until sims start doing it via the simulation. It doesn't have to do with gyro, it's more of a constant due to the steering assembly.

Also, many roadcars rotate over 1180deg, so you might want to turn that up a bit when driving many (well made) cars. KS didn't really do their research, so many cars are locked to 450 however. :rolleyes:

And no, I'm not a DDW owner, but this is just basic physics to begin with, and confirmed by several people who drive on DDW's in sims as part of their job, so take it for what it is. Try it.
 
  • Deleted member 197115

Sorry, but what you are suggesting is way off, 50% damping will make wheel feel like driving a steam roller.
I don't consider myself a clueless newcomer when it comes to DD wheels and AC, 6 years and counting and we had our group of DD owners on AC official forum, sharing our settings and tips on getting the best out of the sim and our wheels.
Also on GD official forum these setting are pretty much what is recommended for AC and ACC across the board, Gergio (pankykapus) uses pretty much the same setup.
I really appreciate the effort you guys are putting in, but it just doesn't work for all wheels leaving stock implementation, even with whatever deficiencies you have found in it, a better option for hardware Kunos primarily designed this feature for.
You'd see it yourself if you had access to DD wheel.

Again, thanks for all the good stuff you are adding to AC, hope any feedback you get will only help improve it more, not serve as a discouragement.
 
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Yeah, perhaps 50% is too much. You're probably right about that, but I have a big doubt 5% is correct.

Have you actually tried the correct gyro damping implementation with increasing amounts of friction and damping? To me it seems like you just punch in 5% and call it a day.

EDIT: Oh, and I'm not a CSP dev, although I am a car creator. mclarenf1papa and stereo are the actual devs. I'm just giving my personal opinion based on devving sim cars.
 
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  • Deleted member 197115

Keep in mind that force is calculated based on max gain set in driver. So 5% of 25Nm . . . And Damper and Friction work together to slow wheel down, so it's more like 10%.
And yes, of course I've tried to compensate by doubling damper and friction, the problem with this approach that it dampens (dulls) everything, wheel becomes lazy and losing small details.
Technically neither AC or ACC need damper at all as dynamic damping/gyro compensate for all possible oscillation and overreactive SAT.
We only add a bit just to create a little bit of a more realistic "weight" in a wheel.
 
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Keep in mind that force is calculated based on max gain set in driver. So 5% of 25Nm . . . And Damper and Friction work together to slow wheel down, so it's more like 10%.
And yes, of course I've tried to compensate by doubling damper and friction, the problem with this approach that it dampens (dulls) everything, wheel becomes lazy and losing small details.
Technically neither AC or ACC need damper at all as dynamic damping/gyro compensate for all possible oscillation and overreactive SAT.
We only add a bit just to create a little bit of a more realistic "weight" in a wheel.
Real steering systems are far more damped and have more friction (sims have none) than what you get out of the sim. You're not going to be getting those small details nor is the wheel going to be as responsive IRL.

The easy way would be to just datalog steering torque into Motec, then log steering torque from AC. Do a repeatable test and see. It won't be the same in a PS car as it is with AC's manual steering, but you can figure out if you're actually getting too much or too little torque ultimately.

You talk about violent FFB coming out of a slide, and that's what you would get IRL if there was very little damping or friction in the system.
 
Also on GD official forum these setting are pretty much what is recommended for AC and ACC across the board, Gergio (pankykapus) uses pretty much the same setup.
To be fair, ESXPaul's settings are from November 2019 before the new Gyro was a thing and have higher damper and friction settings than yours and he also uses inertia which could be especially helpful for the wheel behaviour you're looking for. Gergo's settings are for Competizione with 100% Dyn Damping, not for AC1.

Also, many roadcars rotate over 1180deg, so you might want to turn that up a bit when driving many (well made) cars. KS didn't really do their research, so many cars are locked to 450 however.
Thing with that is that on one hand, the max you can set in AC is 1180° at least with the slider... I never actually tried typing in something higher. On the other hand, CM can set the wheel rotation automatically to the car's rotation, although the question here is if it can be set higher than the max in the driver.
 
To be fair, ESXPaul's settings are from November 2019 before the new Gyro was a thing and have higher damper and friction settings than yours and he also uses inertia which could be especially helpful for the wheel behaviour you're looking for. Gergo's settings are for Competizione with 100% Dyn Damping, not for AC1.


Thing with that is that on one hand, the max you can set in AC is 1180° at least with the slider... I never actually tried typing in something higher. On the other hand, CM can set the wheel rotation automatically to the car's rotation, although the question here is if it can be set higher than the max in the driver.
You can edit the files to put in whatever you want. If you save it and load it in CM, it should still be above 1180. Ilja made a special CM version for me where the slider goes to 1540 or something, but that never got merged to public :V.
 
  • Deleted member 197115

Real steering systems are far more damped and have more friction (sims have none) than what you get out of the sim. You're not going to be getting those small details nor is the wheel going to be as responsive IRL.

The easy way would be to just datalog steering torque into Motec, then log steering torque from AC. Do a repeatable test and see. It won't be the same in a PS car as it is with AC's manual steering, but you can figure out if you're actually getting too much or too little torque ultimately.

You talk about violent FFB coming out of a slide, and that's what you would get IRL if there was very little damping or friction in the system.
If you make sim wheel behave exactly like steering wheel in the car you will get close to zero information as SOTP and G-Forces are missing.
 
  • Deleted member 197115

To be fair, ESXPaul's settings are from November 2019 before the new Gyro was a thing and have higher damper and friction settings than yours and he also uses inertia which could be especially helpful for the wheel behaviour you're looking for. Gergo's settings are for Competizione with 100% Dyn Damping, not for AC1.


Thing with that is that on one hand, the max you can set in AC is 1180° at least with the slider... I never actually tried typing in something higher. On the other hand, CM can set the wheel rotation automatically to the car's rotation, although the question here is if it can be set higher than the max in the driver.
I don't think anyone is using these settings nowadays, even Paul, keep in mind he was fresh new to DD wheel at that time. Ask CC what he is using now.
ACC Dynamic Damping at 100% is almost exactly what OEM Gyro is in AC. They both serve the same purpose and based on the same principle.
And you are correct on DOR, TD and AC must match. And 1180 is the max supported by title itself. I believe Miura using all 1180.
Georgo's settings for AC.
 
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If you make sim wheel behave exactly like steering wheel in the car you will get close to zero information as SOTP and G-Forces are missing.
You already get vibrations from the wheel, and there is nothing in the FFB which will give you G-force information. Literally all you're doing is adding in noise that isn't there and doesn't tell you anything useful.

What it will do is train incorrect responses to the same visual stimuli, which is why pro drivers don't try to emulate those effects to my knowledge.

Anyway, the whole G-force thing is kind of overrated IMO. You're not gonna be feeling the difference between a 2.1g and 2.2g lateral acceleration in a race car IMO. It's largely visual. Where it does help greatly is gauging braking and accelerating, but like I said none of that can be communicated through the FFB so it's misguided to think you are doing that.

I think KS tried to emulate some lateral G-force feeling via the incorrect SAT they used, for an earlier dropoff in SAT to communicate that you're nearing the limit, but it just ended up in people under-driving cars and *less* confidence because the information is not truthful. I think a similar thing will happen with overly active FFB.

Also, AC supports whatever steering degrees last I checked. I ran a linearly-scaled IIRC 3.5 turns lock to lock once on one car, losing almost 1/3 the lock but having it linear until 900. :roflmao:
 
  • Deleted member 197115

It has a way of adapting to different max DOR wheels, yes.
But if my wheel supports full range why would I want to mess with the scale? Anyway, we digress from primarily subj.
FFB is always exaggeration of real forces, there is no other way to communicate all that information driver receives while in a car via just steering wheel.
 
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I mean that you can set your lock to anything you want, and get full lock in many older roadcars as well. Although 1180 is adequate; I must have been thinking of 1080. Some cars like the unassisted AE86 do have 1260 max degrees, for example, but it's somewhat uncommon after the 70's.

The wheel can't communicate any of that info, is my point. I think that idea is a flawed relic from the past, which is being replaced by needs for more realistic simulation setups so that visual stimulus can better match up to kinesthetic stimulus.

FFB in AC is literally just rack end forces. There isn't much in the way of hackery or exaggeration to my understanding, if you turn off all the canned stuff. My speculation for the vanilla SAT being purposefully designed might not even be correct; more likely it's just bad, seeing as realistic SAT is just downright better and more communicative.

But hey, whatever. I was mistaken and thought you were trying to match steering response to your real car(s). I suppose if you don't care about for matching the kinesthetic feedback and want to try to bake other stuff in it, go ahead.

But let me tell you now that I very much so don't currently believe you can communicate anything useful to do with seat of pants feel or G-forces via the wheel. Perhaps in a more arcady title like the rF series where you IIRC could hook up slip and G-forces in an artificial way to the steering, but not in any sims which do it right. Hell, the whole point of Realfeel was to just go to actual forces on the rack.
 
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